Cushing's disease: a new approach to therapy in equine and canine patients.

[caballus]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;5011012]
Gwen, it seems like you always post these things that promote your beliefs, yet you dismiss them and the discussion that follows. It’s like you’re baiting us so you can bring attention to your beliefs and then get upset at us when we poke holes in the gems of studies and websites you bring us. I don’t get it.[/QUOTE]Well, perhaps its none of the above - its NOT about you – there are almost 50,000 readers on this board. Getting both sides of ‘the story’ can only help educate many, right? Yeah – I would prefer to use herbs and homeopathy BUT – as I’ve said before, sometimes they need help from conventional medicine and can be used alongside. The more ‘options’ there are for folks the better it is. Whatever I share is what I’ve learned and wish to share. That’s all. I really HATE confrontations but enjoy a good discussion because it helps to t.h.i.n.k. Contrary to what you or others believe, I’m not out to convert anyone unless its to convert one to THINK FOR HIM/HERSELF instead of just blindly following what someone else says. If nothing else I want my students to learn to t.h.i.n.k. It absolutely AMAZES me how many people I get who don’t know HOW to learn, don’t know HOW to think for themselves and THAT drives me crazy! Learn to THINK for yourself! On both ‘sides’. Then take that information and see how it FEELS to you. Work it in to your own thinking and workings.

And how would you KNOW if I dismiss it or not? You don’t. Period.

What I’ve said before is not that anyone disagrees with me or points out where I’m wrong but when people lower themselves to start personally calling names, judging, telling others what they should or should not do, etc etc. That takes the focus away from the topic (as we’ve all seen, obviously). Am I ‘stupid’ for what I feel? Am I 'stupid" for what I think? Am I “stupid” cause I don’t have a mathematical or ‘scientific’ brain? to some extent? No, I don’t have a PASSION for molecular biology or anything like it. I try to understand what others say, will read up more as I can and try to learn from it. I then compare to what else I’ve learned, heard, read and work it all together in my own thinking so all the pieces can come together in a whole picture for me. I think in pictures so if I can’t picture something that someone is saying in my brain then I can’t understand what is being said. (yeah – got some quirky, or maybe that should be quarky ? grin, pictures in my head!) I have a PASSION for life, in general – learning the whys and the wherefores and the how comes. If someone tells me that the earth is round then I want to know WHY. If someone tells me they think the earth is flat then I want to know WHY that person thinks that way. Obviously there are some things to which we all will NEVER know the whys … and in this case, homeopathy has been shown to be effective for some horses. BUT it cannot be explained by SCIENCE as to WHY it (homeopathy) works so therefore the conclusion is, it can’t work. But it does. We can talk about Avogadro’s numbers and we can talk about homeopathy but the two are just never going to match.

Sometimes science and spirit just won’t jive. And that’s all. Talk about spirit or soul – what is it that makes a person unique? How can it be ‘scientifically proven’ or ‘reproduced’ or ‘tested’? It’s way more than just hereditary or genetics – or cellular although transplants have shown that some of it is cellular memory but what makes YOU, you? And will a cloned human have a spirit? A soul? How do you know. What is on an ‘energy’ level or a ‘vibrational’ level – what about the quarks, the nanoscience, the nanomedicine, etc? We’ll never know it all – we’ll never, as a species, have all the answers. So we can ‘discuss’ and think … who know what will come of that?

So here, with discussions like this – we get both sides, right? Some will like it and read through and find out more (either ‘side’ of the coin) and some won’t be able to handle it and just leave it. shrugs … its a DISCUSSION FORUM … to discuss different topics of interest. And there’s lots to be learned from the discussions all over these forums if the personal shite is ignored.

Have a nice day everyone.

[caballus]

I am not convinced that having a bottle of water (or vodka) reputed to contain some of these vibrations is going to impact health and disease. It is completely illogical to think that this vibratory energy/force/whatever can be mixed up, bottled, and directed in this fashion.
Yeah, but is it POSSIBLE? :winkgrin:

[MassageLady]

This is published in a homeopathy journal. When a similar study can get through the review process for a veterinary medicine journal, I’ll be impressed.

And there are those of us who aren’t impressed by things in the veterinary journal…because we’ve been that route, with little success. Yet, the alternative therapies have proven themselves many times to cure things that western medicine will only ‘manage’ thru drugs.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=caballus;5009816]
I substituted the words immune system for “Vital Force” in my above writing. Perhaps I should not have done that but I’ve found that when I do, people who are not familiar with the homeopathic “vital force” understand the basics better that way. [/QUOTE]

Ahhhhh I understand. You just made it up and put in the words “immune system” to help us simple people.

All along though it was absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the immune system.

I also use the words immune system with regard to homeopathics because of the responses I’ve gotten when I try to explain what the ‘vital force’ is …

seems people shut down their minds automatically as soon as they read those words. So, just trying to simplify but perhaps I’m confusing instead. My apologies if this is so.

You must have been utterly dumfounded then when I was so darned simple that I just don’t even understand your “simplified” and incorrect made up explanation! No wonder I always suggest you’re talking bovine excrement when you waffle on all the time about “boosting the immune system” or “strengthening immunity” or “rebalancing the immune system” and every time you write about such matters I ask you what you mean by it and you’ve never once yet said “whoops I meant vital force”.

Thankfully when I go for my treatment my consultant isn’t quite so bizarre. I go and get immunoglobulin or interferon for my immune system. Thankfully he’s not giving me vodka for my vital force!!

I get upset because usually the question of what I mean is preluded with some derogatory comment about me, personally, and my opinions or thinking. I don’t mind discussing a TOPIC but just like you or anyone else, when personally attacked, the defenses go up and thinking becomes clouded.
Perhaps if you didn’t keep substituting words to help the simple minded then you wouldn’t get told you were talking poo.

So Vital Force does not = immune system.

Science does not = belief.

Cure does not = placebo.

Vaccination does not = “the devils work”

9 years old does not = “A new approach”

Remember that and don’t write that it does and I’ll be less likely to jump on what you say.

Remember too that it’s what you write about that I criticise.

“Boosting” or “strengthening” with HERBS is completely different than ‘rebalancing the immune system’ using homeopathics. Using HERBALS one is using a tangible, concrete substance that interacts on a molecular basis to boost or strengthen or cleanse the particular system (in this discussion it would be the immune system).
Whoops you just lost me again. So do you mean “immune system” or do you mean “vital force”

Now – using the words VITAL FORCE instead of the simpler “immune system”
First time I’ve ever heard the immune system called simple. Indeed I’ve always laboured under the belief that it was extremely complex and that’s one of the reasons why I always question you when you suggest that a little herb diet is going to radically improve (or is it re-balance ) the complex system of immunity.

with regard to homeopathy – the VITAL FORCE, as Hahnemann explains within the concepts of Homeopathy, and is so aptly described by Leeza D’Souza, “energy prevalent in every living being, as the “spiritual vital force” that animated the living organism and ruled with unbounded sway, in order to keep the body working in perfect harmony. This ‘perfect harmony’, in scientific terms means maintaining homeostasis. When a person is healthy, this vital force functions at its optimum resulting in perfect homeostasis.”
Clear as mud! But hey there’s some very fancy gobblegook there!

Homeopathics work on the VITAL FORCE of an individual (remember, the VF is what I’ve used the substituted word ‘immune system’ for easier understanding but I botched it up trying to paint a more simple picture for those unfamiliar with homeopathy)
you did indeed and you’ve been so doing for 3 years that I know of. Who’d have imagined that all along you never meant the immune system. You meant the vital force which is a much more complex system.

So, Herbals work on physical body systems in a physical sense; Homeopathy works on the Vital Force on a vibrational/energetic level. Atomic/subatomic level, if you will.
:lol:

Maybe that clear it up better? As I said its such a paradigm shift in thinking that it makes it hard to explain to those who haven’t make that shift or even thought about it or are completely negating it altogether.
As I said, that’s as clear as mud. I presume it’s hard to understand if you’ve not had a bottle of vodka or smoked half a dozen spliffs though.

In “Classical” Homeopathy just ONE dose is given in chronic situations. In acute there may be a number of doses given in relatively short intervals - every 10 - 15 mins until symptoms subside.
So is there several sorts of homeopathy? Classic?? Baroque??? what??

You’re saying that if there’s a long term condition you just get one dose and if there’s lots of doses.

So arthritis one dose. Heart attack and you get lots every 10 to 15 minutes. :yes:

Typically, chronic remedies effects last for up to 3 months when another evaluation must be done to determine what is currently needed at that time. With acute remedies in an acute situation, the situation is almost immediately resolved or the effects last up to 7 or 10 days when reassessment is then needed.
Blimey it’s a miracle. Homeopathy is brilliant isn’t it! Do those guarantees come when you buy it?

With horses or other animals that’s easy – they respond or they don’t. Blood tests, physical exams, etc. can be done to verify whether or not the ‘situation’ is resolved as in any other allopathic treatment. That is adviseable with chronic states. With acute, the ‘evidence’ is plainly seen simply by the mental and physical state of the animal.
So I wonder why if it’s so darned easy why there’s no proper clinical trials ever done. Well I don’t really because I know why there isn’t.

Again, I apologize to be confusing interchanging the terms ‘immune system’ and ‘vital force’. I guess I won’t do that again and just let the term “Vital Force” stand on its own.
And I’ll promise not to bother asking where in the body the vital force is located or what evidence there is that it even exists let alone that it’s made worse by illness and better by homeopathy.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=MassageLady;5011369]
And there are those of us who aren’t impressed by things in the veterinary journal…because we’ve been that route, with little success. [/QUOTE]So you tried and failed to get something published in the veterinary journal.

Yet, the alternative therapies have proven themselves many times to cure things that western medicine will only ‘manage’ thru drugs.

Yeh right! Here we go round in ever decreasing circles!!

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5011542]
…And I’ll promise not to bother asking where in the body the vital force is located or what evidence there is that it even exists let alone that it’s made worse by illness and better by homeopathy.[/QUOTE]

It is located in the dantian (about 2 fingers below the belly button). This is from my tai chi instructor and our club’s Chinese doctor.

As an aside, why this whole issue does not wash with me is that I practice and work with folks from the cultures that others here espouse as some amazing medical idea that “western society has neglected” but my associates are all about the scientific methods when it comes to their own medical/life practices and many times contradict what is said here. I tend to go with them as they lived and worked in those cultures and systems.

By the way, one of my tai chi teachers is an atmospheric chemist at NCAR (who has a background in QUANTUM OPTICS for those who do not understand vibrational states of matter) and the other is a scientist at NOAA so this whole, “you will never understand because you are too left or right brained” argument is bogus. I have seen it used too many times for homeopathy, “holistic” eastern medicine, and any other method that is touted but not supported by reasoned examination.

Reed

[Percheron_X]

[QUOTE=deltawave;5011266]

Unless, as PerchX intimates, the mind can influence these bottled vibrations slightly. But if that’s the case, why not do away with the bottle and just WILL these interactions?[/QUOTE]

Because the bottle is the physical representation of the cure…

The healing is initiated through the “ritual” that is the bottle…

The healing power is created through belief, and the belief is validated through the ritual.

Fire walking is an example of a physical state induced by belief.

[RAyers]

Ah but PerchX, as stated in the writings of Lao Tsu, when any belief becomes mired in procedure and process, it loses all validity (Tao Teh Ching, verse 38).

At the same time, the person’s belief then influences the observation of the animal leading to perceived benefit.

[Percheron_X]

[QUOTE=RAyers;5011615]
It is located in the dantian (about 2 fingers below the belly button). This is from my tai chi instructor and our club’s Chinese doctor.

As an aside, why this whole issue does not wash with me is that I practice and work with folks from the cultures that others here espouse as some amazing medical idea that “western society has neglected” but my associates are all about the scientific methods when it comes to their own medical/life practices and many times contradict what is said here. I tend to go with them as they lived and worked in those cultures and systems.

By the way, one of my tai chi teachers is an atmospheric chemist at NCAR (who has a background in QUANTUM OPTICS for those who do not understand vibrational states of matter) and the other is a scientist at NOAA so this whole, “you will never understand because you are too left or right brained” argument is bogus. I have seen it used too many times for homeopathy, “holistic” eastern medicine, and any other method that is touted but not supported by reasoned examination.

Reed[/QUOTE]

Out of curiosity, do you think it might be possible to somehow analyze a bottle of homeopathic solution with an instrument of some kind sensitive enough to detect these “vibrations”?

Then maybe compare the bottles with diluted substances to bottles of plain water in an attempt to detect “any” differences?

[Percheron_X]

[QUOTE=RAyers;5011666]
Ah but PerchX, as stated in the writings of Lao Tsu, when any belief becomes mired in procedure and process, it loses all validity (Tao Teh Ching, verse 38). [/QUOTE]

Perhaps relative to the purity of ones spirit… however a whole lot of “validly real” acts have been undertaken in the name of religion.

At the same time, the person’s belief then influences the observation of the animal leading to perceived benefit.

This is why many specialists tend to see the cause as being related to their specialty…

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5011084]
—“Maybe someone without an agenda could enlighten me. Gwen, it seems like you always post these things that promote your beliefs, yet you dismiss them and the discussion that follows. It’s like you’re baiting us so you can bring attention to your beliefs and then get upset at us when we poke holes in the gems of studies and websites you bring us. I don’t get it.”—

I think you very well may have hit the nail on the head.:yes:
OP seems to be selling something and when times are slow, another thread brings in a few more clients.
There is always one more born, as B+B used to say.

The trouble with learning any real science is that you then realize how far out what you thought really was and losing your faith is never easy.
Ask the flat earthers about it.

On the other hand, I don’t think being so far out is funny at all, not when many times not using conventional and well proven methods to help right now can make an important difference in the health of our horses.:no:[/QUOTE]

and bluey matey i ahve siad that all along she after more sales

[Ghazzu]

@RAyers;5011666

At the same time, the person’s belief then influences the observation of the animal leading to perceived benefit.

A colleague on a veterinary list recently told of having a trainer request treatment for a problem in one of his charges.
Vet had to reschedule due to an emergency–and the groom answered the phone when he called, but when he walked into the barn a few days later, the trainer, who hadn’t been informed, ran over and hugged him because the horse was so much better after the treatment…

[Ghazzu]

@Thomas_1;5011542

So is there several sorts of homeopathy? Classic?? Baroque??? what??

.

Can homeopathic rollkur be far behind?

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=Percheron X;5011706]
Out of curiosity, do you think it might be possible to somehow analyze a bottle of homeopathic solution with an instrument of some kind sensitive enough to detect these “vibrations”?

Then maybe compare the bottles with diluted substances to bottles of plain water in an attempt to detect “any” differences?[/QUOTE]

Yes, there is. Today we can measure parts per trillion (e.g. find a single particular cell in the entire body of 100-200 trillion cells). Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectroscopy (ICP-MS) or Time of Flight Sputtered Ion Mass Spectroscopy (ToF-SIMS) or if we want to get to atomic measurements, X-ray Photo Spectroscopy (XPS) or Auger Electron Microscopy.

None of these are easy per-se but they are effective. ICP actually requires dilutions on the order of homeopathic medicines in order to not overload the signal.

A quick literature search shows a lot of work in this area. In articles published in the journal, Homeopathy as well as Oncology and even the Journal of Molecular Liquids show that there is no “pure” water in the final dilution (out to 200c). Silicates from the glass, components of the initial solute and other things show up in the final dilutions even past the “Avogadro’s Limit” (meaning that that idea is really an assumption and not a reality based on today’s modern measuring equipment).

Reed

[deltawave]

STUPID is not the same thing as IGNORANT. Nobody is calling the OP “stupid”, but there is a very profound and repeatedly demonstrated level of ignorance. There is no cure for the former; the latter is very readily remedied.

aren’t impressed by things in the veterinary journal

What is meant by “unimpressed” here? That findings and painstaking fact-gathering just don’t mean anything? That a body of knowledge has no value? That repeatedly demonstrable treatment successes are made-up or fabricated?

Or is the prejudice going foremost and facts be damned?

There’s that “willed ignorance” again. “Don’t bother me with facts, I’ve MADE UP my mind”. The very worst kind, because the normal cure for ignorance (education) is only effective when it is SOUGHT.

[deltawave]

This is why many specialists tend to see the cause as being related to their specialty…

Mark Twain, wasn’t it? "To a man with a hammer . . . "

Human nature there, and there’s no dodging THAT without brutal and relentless effort. And even then it crops up most inconveniently. How imperfect we all are, even at the level of the “macro”. And here we are trying to harness the vibrations of things most of us can barely comprehend. :lol:

[CatOnLap]

[QUOTE=Percheron X;5011706]
Out of curiosity, do you think it might be possible to somehow analyze a bottle of homeopathic solution with an instrument of some kind sensitive enough to detect these “vibrations”?

Then maybe compare the bottles with diluted substances to bottles of plain water in an attempt to detect “any” differences?[/QUOTE]

Interestingly enough a large Russian medical institute subjected the waters used by vibrational healers to a double blind test- the vibrational healers claimed to be able to detect energetically charged water from plain tap water. So they were given a series of numbered, randomly assigned bottles of water, some charged , some not. The detection rate was no better than chance.

Now in Russia, the availability of good medical care and effective medicine is very spotty, so many people resort to “alternative practitioners” such as honeopaths, faith healers, and so on, for which they pay privately. They are passionate about it, apparently, but the scientists are not.

[CatOnLap]

Silicates from the glass, components of the initial solute and other things show up in the final dilutions even past the “Avogadro’s Limit” (meaning that that idea is really an assumption and not a reality based on today’s modern measuring equipment).

Well, obviously RAyers, homeopathy works then doesn’t it? I mean none of us are transparent, like glass, and water is in contact with the glass, so it must have cured our transparency!

Now someone had the temerity to mention right and left brain thinking, a neurological concept I know very very well, up to and including the idea that more recent research ( right and left brain concepts are at least 50-100 years old) shows it just ain’t that simple and that various brain functions on a higher order level, such as complex information processing required to think abstractly ( mathematics, language, creativity, etc) is neither exclusively right nor left brained and probably does better with a holographic model that invokes some quantum principals to make it work. Great tunneling quarks!

I had to say that the scientists on this thread are pretty impressive in their whole brain thinking, and the faith healers, not so much.

[RAyers]

I will say that after reading many articles in scholarly journals about homeopathy, there is a greater willingness to understand what is happening than the OP and other here are presenting.

Even in the journal, Homeopathy, it is obvious that there is a concerted effort to truly understand the physical mechanisms behind the perceived effects. This, in turn, implies to me that the OP and others fail to continue to learn and understand their own field. What they present is mired in the past based on dogma that has been challenged and proved false.

There is some cool physics presented in some of these homeopathic articles! One thing noted is that many times practitioners have no idea of the actual mechanisms they tout and thus present an oversimplified and ignorant POV (Lieck 2008).

Reed

References so nobody can claim I don’t read and learn:

NMR Relaxation Evidence for Solute-Induced Nanosized Superstructures in Ultramolecular Aqueous Dilutions of Silica-Lactose
JL Demangeat - Journal of Molecular Liquids, 2010

High-field 1 HT 1 and T 2 NMR relaxation time measurements of H 2 O in homeopathic preparations of quartz, sulfur, and copper sulfate
S Baumgartner, M Wolf, P Skrabal, F Bangerter, et al., - Naturwissenschaften, 2009

Enzyme stabilization by glass-derived silicates in glass-exposed aqueous solutions
CSM Fulltext ResourcesJA Ives, JR Moffett, P Arun, D Lam, TI Todorov, AB - Homeopathy, 2010

Homeopathic Preparations of Quartz, Sulfur and Copper Sulfate Assessed by UV-Spectroscopy
Ursula Wolf, Martin Wolf1, Peter Heusser, Andre ́ Thurneysen and Stephan Baumgartner - Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine, 2009.

The silica hypothesis for homeopathy: physical chemistry
CSM Fulltext ResourcesDJ Anick, JA Ives - Homeopathy, 2007 - Elsevier

Homeopathy. 2008 Jan;97(1):50-1.
Comment on: “Conspicuous by its absence: the Memory of Water, macro-entanglement, and the possibility of homeopathy” and “The nature of the active ingredient in ultramolecular dilutions”.
Leick P.

[deltawave]

Passion is great in terms of inspiring a search for answers, for making us hungry to know, but it really has no place in the realm of cold, hard data. Our prejudices are too closely tied to our passions, and we are too tempted to delude ourselves and dismiss what is right in front of our noses when the facts seem to point elsewhere from the direction our passions want them to go.

No rational mind is exempt from this temptation. Scientists struggle hugely with it. But believers and anti-science types have no such compunction, apparently. Facts, schmacts, I have PASSION. :rolleyes: