Your logic is full of holes.
The OP says NOTHING about a breakthrough or effectiveness. Just that TWO homeopathic remedies were tried. It doesn’t define “effectiveness” or explain how this was assessed.
So what? How do these compare to conventionally accepted therapy (diet modification and Pergolide)? How do they compare to placebo?
Then to go off on a rant about homeopathy and vets being available and everything else…
(Well practiced) FRUITBAT time…
[QUOTE=caballus;5007209]
Do you think the results of the study would be any different if gone through a review process for a veterinary medicine journal?[/QUOTE]
Quite possibly. For example the methods to determine ‘success’ might be considered invalid. It doesn’t say. Was this based on observations of an owner? A trained veterinarian? A person selling homeopathic remedies? Blood work? Their aura?
Thomas- you have not produced one useful, proactive thought on here. Apparently, you simply saw that someone who is on your list (which I am guessing is quite long :lol:) and attacked.
Why? There may, or may not be something useful here-- your milage may vary-- but why is it necessary to simply attack? Because you can?
When you extoll on your long career and vast knowledge, you might want to begin by saying that you are compelled to attack anyone who you judge to be beneath you. It will make those of us gazing up at you, on your soap box, know exactly where you believe we stand.
^ I’d not realised you’d taken on the job of personal poster critic.
Oh no, sorry I’m wrong. You haven’t.
You just wish you were.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;5007261]
Thomas- you have not produced one useful, proactive thought on here. Apparently, you simply saw that someone who is on your list (which I am guessing is quite long :lol:) and attacked. [/QUOTE] Yeh right and you on the other hand…:rolleyes:
“Hypocrisy is the homage which vice pays to virtue” how do you spell “hypocrite”?
Why? There may, or may not be something useful here-- your milage may vary-- but why is it necessary to simply attack? Because you can?
I could ask you the same questions but I won’t because I don’t actually care at all what some anonymous snappy person thinks at all.
I question and challenge because I like to truly understand.
I don’t accept everything that anyone and everyone tells me and I like to guage the level of expertise and truly be able to judge and weigh up what I’m being told. Particularly when it comes to treatment efficacy for things equine.
If I read something that’s clearly poor advice or in my opinion some sort of superficial stuff that’s likely to do no good whatsoever then I’ll point it out.
If something is posted that’s incorrect then I’ll say so.
But then you need to understand that in the UK we tend not to go round with an inane smile when someone tells us something that’s wrong. So that means if you rush up to me and see “Hey did you read that new study about rabies vaccines by Pasteur”, then I’d say “Don’t be daft, it’s old”. Likewise if you stopped over here and said “have you heard about the miracle cure I’ve brought over from America by Phineas Taylor Barnum” then you’re likely to be told to stick it where the sun don’t shine.
It might also be useful to understand that the reason why I tend to read all new threads on “Horse Care” is that I’m kinda interested in horses. Now who’d have thought that hey, on a horse forum!
The reason why I pay particular interest in things relating to Cushings Disease is that I’ve actually lost a horse with that and as horses live longer it’s becoming more prevalent so I’m thinking it might be a plan to give stuff relating to Cushings a careful eye.
So if it’s titled “new approach” it’s going to grab my attention because despite your yapping, I do actually like to stay up to date and abreast with what’s happening.
When you extoll on your long career and vast knowledge, you might want to begin by saying that you are compelled to attack anyone who you judge to be beneath you. It will make those of us gazing up at you, on your soap box, know exactly where you believe we stand.
Thanks but I didn’t need reminding where you stand.
I brought the popcorn and cheese, someone else has already brought the whine, but to make it horse related, would any of these substances effectively treat Cushings?
In any case, I see no reason why treating with ACTH wouldn’t bring about the results they found. Are there any studies that demonstrate the efficacy of Quercus robur on its own? Otherwise, what we may be reading here is a study demonstrating the use of ACTH.
:sigh:I suspect that if the OP had her way we’d all still be boiling willow bark for fevers, and treating syphilis with Mercury-because they are natural. :dead:
[QUOTE=merrygoround;5007465]
:sigh:I suspect that if the OP had her way we’d all still be boiling willow bark for fevers, and treating syphilis with Mercury-because they are natural. :dead:[/QUOTE]
Or knocking great holes in our noggins to cure headache.
I’m sorry - perhaps I’m a bit more reactionary on the topic of homeopathy than most, because I’ve seen it kill someone. Human, not animal - breast cancer. This is why I generally tend to try to stay out of these threads.
I gotta say, though - Thomas1 is right - it’s hardly a “new” study. And if there were such spectacular results, why no follow-up studies?
[QUOTE=Katy Watts;5007160]
This is published in a homeopathy journal. When a similar study can get through the review process for a veterinary medicine journal, I’ll be impressed.[/QUOTE]
That makes as much sense as authors of veterinary studies trying to get themselves published in homeopathy journals. How odd, a homeopathic study being published in a homeopathy journal. BIZ - aarrrrrr. But I’m sure these folks are scrambling to get it into a veterinary journal right this minute after publishing it nine years ago, because they really care about impressing Katy Watts. That is sure to validate their existence.
[QUOTE=caballus;5006839]
Forty-one cases of Cushing’s Disease affecting both equine and canine patients were treated with an identical mixture of two homeopathically prepared remedies (ACTH 30c and Quercus robur 30c), and the clinical improvements seen in the cases assessed.
The overall success rate for the therapy was 80% and results were broadly similar between the two species, indicating that homeopathy lends itself to the treatment of Cushing’s Disease, and also to both cohort studies and group medicine.[/B]
The complete study can be read here:
http://www.thepenzancehorse.com/2008/BITSNPIECES/CUSHINGS/cushingsresearch.htm[/QUOTE]
Cushings is an overproduction of ACTH is it not? From what I recall the 30c potency is for overactive organs/glands - is it not? Do they discuss the potency in the study? Also what is Quercus Robur is that a standard homeopathic remedy? What aspect of Cushings is that supposed to treat?
[QUOTE=Androcles;5007658]
Cushings is an overproduction of ACTH is it not? From what I recall the 30c potency is for overactive organs/glands - is it not? Do they discuss the potency in the study? Also what is Quercus Robur is that a standard homeopathic remedy? What aspect of Cushings is that supposed to treat?[/QUOTE]
Not always.
If anyone bothered to read the beginning of the article, it actually explains sort of well what the etiology of “Cushing’s” in dogs/horses is.
Cushing’s is actually a HUMAN disease.
In dogs, hyperadrenocorticism is similar to human Cushing’s, but it is not the same. Dogs either have a pituitary gland tumor which overproduces ACTH, or they have an adrenal tumor that just puts out too much glucocorticoid hormone.
Horses have an altogether different etiology. They have PPID, pituitary pars intermedia dysfunction. That is not always the same kind of pituitary (brain) tumor that dogs get. It causes the same end result (hyperadrenocorticism) that is the “Cushing’s” we know in horses. But it’s not the same.
So then, how does treating both horses AND dogs with ACTH make sense then? It doesn’t. That’s why it was explored in that article 9 years ago and we haven’t heard from it since.
We have drugs that work in dogs (trilostane, lysodren). They work. Surgery works. Radiation therapy works (for brain tumors). No, nothing’s perfect, but they are vastly more effective than these homeopathic remedies described.
I have much to learn about the place of homeopathy in veterinary medicine, but if there are specific drugs out there to treat specific diseases and are proven effective, then why not use them? Why prolong your animal’s condition and suffering for the sake of your ideals?
[QUOTE=Androcles;5007647]
That makes as much sense as authors of veterinary studies trying to get themselves published in homeopathy journals. How odd, a homeopathic study being published in a homeopathy journal. BIZ - aarrrrrr. But I’m sure these folks are scrambling to get it into a veterinary journal right this minute after publishing it nine years ago, because they really care about impressing Katy Watts. That is sure to validate their existence.[/QUOTE]
Why wouldn’t a veterinary journal publish a valid study on the effectiveness of homeopathy?
Just put him on ignore, report his post and be done with it. Last time I checked, calling other forum members “stupid” wasn’t allowed within the posting rules. Regardless if other posters agree with you or not, the name calling isn’t the way to get the point across.
So also, reading this study, many of the animals were diagnosed based on clinical signs alone, which is bad (dogs with those signs can have any number of diseases). Hypothyroidism in dogs can look like hyperadrenocorticism too.
They didn’t even do any further testing in the dogs to see what the origin of the disease (pituitary vs. adrenal) was.
Some horses were diagnosed alone on blood glucose levels. What? Really?
Also, the two homeopathic treatments were always combined, so it is unknown which one was effective.
This study was full of design flaws (don’t even get me started), and though the etiologies of the diseases are well-described in the beginning of the paper, I’m not sure still why you would want to treat an overproduction of ACTH with more ACTH… Even the authors couldn’t rationalize that, other than in homeopathy you treat like with like.
Basically, this study is so out of date and the methods/design used so poorly constructed, the results are highly suspect. If there’s a follow-up study using better methods, I’m all for reading it.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5007333]
^ I’d not realised you’d taken on the job of personal poster critic.
Oh no, sorry I’m wrong. You haven’t.
You just wish you were.
Yeh right and you on the other hand…:rolleyes:
“Hypocrisy is the homage which vice pays to virtue” how do you spell “hypocrite”?
I could ask you the same questions but I won’t because I don’t actually care at all what some anonymous snappy person thinks at all.
I question and challenge because I like to truly understand.
I don’t accept everything that anyone and everyone tells me and I like to guage the level of expertise and truly be able to judge and weigh up what I’m being told. Particularly when it comes to treatment efficacy for things equine.
If I read something that’s clearly poor advice or in my opinion some sort of superficial stuff that’s likely to do no good whatsoever then I’ll point it out.
If something is posted that’s incorrect then I’ll say so.
But then you need to understand that in the UK we tend not to go round with an inane smile when someone tells us something that’s wrong. So that means if you rush up to me and see “Hey did you read that new study about rabies vaccines by Pasteur”, then I’d say “Don’t be daft, it’s old”. Likewise if you stopped over here and said “have you heard about the miracle cure I’ve brought over from America by Phineas Taylor Barnum” then you’re likely to be told to stick it where the sun don’t shine.
It might also be useful to understand that the reason why I tend to read all new threads on “Horse Care” is that I’m kinda interested in horses. Now who’d have thought that hey, on a horse forum!
The reason why I pay particular interest in things relating to Cushings Disease is that I’ve actually lost a horse with that and as horses live longer it’s becoming more prevalent so I’m thinking it might be a plan to give stuff relating to Cushings a careful eye.
So if it’s titled “new approach” it’s going to grab my attention because despite your yapping, I do actually like to stay up to date and abreast with what’s happening.
Thanks but I didn’t need reminding where you stand.[/QUOTE]
Well, Thomas, there are a few people here who know who I am-- it isn’t as though I attempt to hide my identity. And, as Popeye said, “I yam what I yam.”
You, however, as I have mentioned before, are apparently not much of anyone, on the other side of the pond, as much as you attempt to posture otherwise. When people from your neck of the woods, who actually do what you say you do, haven’t the vaguest idea who YOU are-- it becomes clear that you really are a legend in your own mind.
And, the odd news flash- there are a whole bunch of people on here who are interested in learning to take better care of their horses- regardless of their level of experience. Go figure!
The OP posted a link to a study. It may be useful- maybe not- but attacking her for the hell of it is not about learning. It is about being a bully.
I’ve been researching metabolic issues since 1996, and trying to learn all that I can, so that I can be the best advocate possible for my horses. For all that I have learned, I still have more questions than answers. That is just how it is.
Speaking as someone who actually would like people to try and float things out there, so that we can consider where they might- or might not- fit in, it would be appreciated if you could actually ask questions in something resembling a civilized manner [edit] :lol:
[QUOTE=Pancakes;5007695]
Basically, this study is so out of date and the methods/design used so poorly constructed, the results are highly suspect. If there’s a follow-up study using better methods, I’m all for reading it.[/QUOTE]
Since Androcles isn’t answering and you’re a vet, would you be surprised to find a valid study on the effectiveness of homeopathics in a veterinary journal?
Just wondering …
PS – thanks for the insightful posts.
Are you referring to pharmacologic or homeopathic doses of ACTH?
Because equine Cushing’s is characterized by overproduction of ACTH, and I, for one, wouldn’t be using measurable quantities as therapy.
I have no understanding of homeopathy that is worth relating. I use arnica for bruising, swelling etc., and have tried a couple of other things, and read some books. No expertise here.
So, is there anyone reading this who can explain how the approach offered in the study might be considered apropos for these horses?
Would it not seem reasonable that in the nine years since the study,there would have been a report of further study? After the 1991 study were any further clinical trials conducted with either/both dogs or horses?
What concerns me is that the way this treatment was presented here, a less astute reader than Thomas, et al, ight be misled into thinking that there was an effective, proven, established alternative for treating Equine/canine Cushings disease.
Had Gwen presented the study a bit differently, it might have been received differently. But that’s just my opinion and we all know what they say about opinions.
[QUOTE=mp;5007728]
Since Androcles isn’t answering
PS – thanks for the insightful posts.[/QUOTE]
Answering what? I asked a question (of Caballus). How am I supposed to answer someone’s questions about this study?
[QUOTE=Pancakes;5007695]
.
and though the etiologies of the diseases are well-described in the beginning of the paper, I’m not sure still why you would want to treat an overproduction of ACTH with more ACTH… t.[/QUOTE]
You would probably have to understand homeopathy in order to understand that. (except that by giving a dose of 30c they are not treating it with more ACTH, as I said I believe that dose is for overactivity and if the OP knew something about homeopathy perhaps she could address it).
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