Cushing's disease: a new approach to therapy in equine and canine patients.

[Pancakes]

[QUOTE=Androcles;5008161]
How do you know what is or isn’t acceptable in homeopathy?

Actually that sounds like every single doctor I’ve ever encountered.

What it’s technically called doesn’t really matter in prescribing a treatment. Is it or isn’t it characterized by excess ACTH?[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t talking about homeopathy; I was talking about veterinary medicine.

Too bad your doctors are practicing bad medicine.

If you read what I wrote before, or even the beginning of the study, you would know that SOME of what is called “Cushing’s” in the animal world is characterized by excess ACTH. In dogs, we know that it isn’t always. Please go back and read what I wrote and it’ll make sense why, hopefully. The point is that it’s correctly called hyperadrenocorticism and not Cushing’s is because the syndrome is NOT characterized by excess ACTH; rather, the end-product, which is excess glucocorticoid secretion by the adrenal gland. It’s not just semantics; it’s understanding the disease and its process.

Hyper (more, overactive, too much)
Adreno (adrenal gland)
Corticism (glucocorticoid hormone)
= hyperadrenocorticism
= what animals suffer from

They do NOT all suffer from too much ACTH. If that was the case, they would all have brain tumors. It seems this is the case in horses; we KNOW it’s not the case in dogs. They don’t all have pituitary tumors.

I’d be very scared and/or wary of doctors who treat without understanding disease processes. I’d be even more scared of people who don’t care to understand. Homeopathic, traditional, or otherwise.

[Pancakes]

[QUOTE=Androcles;5008152]
Read up on homeopathy. It’s not giving more.[/QUOTE]

If you are giving EVEN the most TINY diluted amount…you are giving more.

Unless you are not giving any of the molecule, in which you are not giving anything, technically.

Or could you elaborate how giving anything, ANYTHING, with the same name, is not giving more? If I have lyme disease (as someone else mentioned before), and you give me even the most dilute amount of borrellia burgdorferi, would you not say you gave me more?
1+ .00000000000000000000000000001 = still more than 1

Or perhaps you can explain?
I like the Futurama explanation best so far…

[chaltagor]

I’d be interested in hearing how a homeopath would treat hypoadrenocorticism.

[Androcles]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;5008289]
If you are giving EVEN the most TINY diluted amount…you are giving more.

Unless you are not giving any of the molecule, in which you are not giving anything, technically.

Or could you elaborate how giving anything, ANYTHING, with the same name, is not giving more? If I have lyme disease (as someone else mentioned before), and you give me even the most dilute amount of borrellia burgdorferi, would you not say you gave me more?
1+ .00000000000000000000000000001 = still more than 1

Or perhaps you can explain?
I like the Futurama explanation best so far…[/QUOTE]

I suggest you read some books on homeopathy. The explanation is certainly beyond the scope of this forum not to mention my abilities. However, I remind you as I’ve said before in this thread, it depends on the potency that is prescribed. Lower potencies for overactivity, higher potencies for underactivity. I believe. I was hoping someone with knowledge of homeopathy would confirm. Typically, the OP posts and disappears.

[Androcles]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;5008285]
I wasn’t talking about homeopathy; I was talking about veterinary medicine.[/QUOTE]
I thought this thread was about homeopathy. You said you need to know etiology to treat disease in homeopathy. Not so. If that’s true for veterinary medicine, you may want to mention that in the veterinary medicine thread.

Too bad your doctors are practicing bad medicine.

Fortunately for me they’re not my doctors. I’ve encountered many doctors and not because they’re mine.

If you read what I wrote before, or even the beginning of the study, you would know that SOME of what is called “Cushing’s” in the animal world is characterized by excess ACTH. In dogs, we know that it isn’t always. Please go back and read what I wrote and it’ll make sense why, hopefully. The point is that it’s correctly called hyperadrenocorticism and not Cushing’s is because the syndrome is NOT characterized by excess ACTH; rather, the end-product, which is excess glucocorticoid secretion by the adrenal gland. It’s not just semantics; it’s understanding the disease and its process.

that is the explanation that was missing before. Your original one did not preclude the presence of excess ACTH simply because there is excess glucocorticoid secretion.

They do NOT all suffer from too much ACTH. If that was the case, they would all have brain tumors. It seems this is the case in horses; we KNOW it’s not the case in dogs. They don’t all have pituitary tumors.

Again, all the available information states that horses with Cushings suffer from excess ACTH, but do not have brain tumors, but it’s still considered Cushings.

[deltawave]

Fourthly, to state that the article does not bring up the NECESSITY for double-blind studies but does suggest that the “protocol might lend itself to double-blind studies” which would be awesome as homeopaths worldwide have been seeking these studies. …

What a crock of doo-doo. It certainly IS a necessity for a remedy to be proven in double-blind randomized trials if you want to eliminate the possibility of selection bias, observer bias, random chance, and all the other confounding variables that complex systems are subject to. Whether it’s homeopathy or traditional medicine or which fertilizer makes vegetables grow faster, putting things to the test is HOW IT’S DONE.

Of course if you simply want lukewarm intimations that something got better and maybe it was because of a given therapy and maybe it wasn’t, then randomized, double-blind studies are optional.

something that has become a Holy Grail for homeopathic researchers.
Possibly because, like the Holy Grail, it has proven impossible to find. “Impossible to find” meaning, in the case of homeopathy, a solid, compelling randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial showing that it is superior to placebo or other remedies.

Do you think the results of the study would be any different if gone through a review process for a veterinary medicine journal?

The results of the study do not inspire me to draw any conclusions, other than that “Gee, it would really be nice to study this properly”. In fact, the purpose of MANY preliminary and observational studies is to bring new questions forward. Questions that can really only be answered with hard, dispassionate data that is (whether you like the words or not) the result of proper, rigorous research. This study would not have been accepted by an allopathic journal because it doesn’t fit the standard definition of hard research. The editors would have politely requested the data from the randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled cohort.

There is a large, bleeding bullet hole in your foot again, Gwen. You ought to stop now and recognize the limitations of the information you posted, because the authors thereof certainly do.

[ReSomething]

Yay, Deltawave! I checked into this thread because I have a Cushingoid old man and I’d like to keep abreast of developments - this thread has been a good popcorn read but in terms of my education and my horses health - pffffft!

Any valid veterinary treatment, homeopathic or otherwise, should be able to pass the double blind testing and be considered to be adequate to be published in a reputable veterinary journal, otherwise it’s just more snake oil.

[caballus]

Typically, the OP posts and disappears.
Well, typically the OP has to work in order to feed the critters here on the farm. I was on the road all day yesterday after I left then had to tend to chores when I got home. No time to ‘play’ on the computer. No mind left to address any in depth discussions.

To address some questions & comments that have been raised and state some facts –

Simple explanation of homeopathy: based on the Law Of Simillimum meaning that what a substance can cause, it can cure. Like cures like. If a substance in its original form causes xyz symptoms in a healthy individual then in potentized form it can also cure xyz symptoms in the dis-eased indiviual.

Disease = the name given to a group of like symptoms found in a group of individuals.

Allopathy = conventional medicine that treats the symptoms; not the individual. i.e. group of patients with asthma – all given the same prescription according to their common symptoms without regard to individual peculiarities.

Homeopathy = treats the individual who is presenting with peculiar symptoms observed in that individual alone. (perhaps part of the reason that double-blind studies cannot be done for homeopathic treatments since each individual responds to dis-ease and substance in a unique way. i.e. – two individuals dx’d w/asthma. One individual may be extremely thirsty for cold drinks during active attacks while the other may have no thirst at all. One may feel better after midnite regularly while the other feels better in the mornings. Each require a remedy that is different from the other.

NOTE: Acute situations such as accidents, traumas, etc. are treated according to common symptoms i.e. bruising, strained muscles, bites, food poisoning, etc. where as chronic situations are treated individually. This, alone, raised my own question with regard to posted study of Cushings.)

Potentization = series of dilution from 1X to 10M (C and M = roman numerals)
1C= 1 drop of substance to 100 drops of water; 2C = 1 drop of 1X/10,000 H20) ;3C = 1 drop of 2C/1,000,000,000 H20:

The substance is succussed (vigorously agitated/shaken and struck against firm surface) between each dilution.

In the US Homeopathy is regulated by the FDA and the lower potencies that treat self-limiting conditions are sold over the counter. Stronger potencies that are intended to treat more serious conditions are only sold by prescription.

[Rick_Burten]

@caballus;5008596

Simple explanation of homeopathy: based on the Law Of Simillimum meaning that what a substance can cause, it can cure. Like cures like. If a substance in its original form causes xyz symptoms in a healthy individual then in potentized form it can also cure xyz symptoms in the dis-eased indiviual.

Can you direct me to the clinical trials that show this to be true?

So, if someone has syphilis you would introduce more Treponema pallidum? Or, if someone was afflicted with Hansen’s disease(Leprosy), you would introduce more Mycobacterium leprae and Mycobacterium lepromatosis to cure them?

Allopathy = conventional medicine that treats the symptoms; not the individual. i.e. group of patients with asthma – all given the same prescription according to their common symptoms without regard to individual peculiarities.

I’m not sure where you got this definition, but I know from first hand experience that my doctor(s) treat me with regard to my individual peculiarities.

Homeopathy …i.e. – two individuals dx’d w/asthma. One individual may be extremely thirsty for cold drinks during active attacks while the other may have no thirst at all. One may feel better after midnite regularly while the other feels better in the mornings. Each require a remedy that is different from the other.

So under this scenario, you would treat the asthma attack with cold drinks for one but not the other, right? Would those cold drinks be alcoholic or non-alcoholic or does it depend. ie: I suffer an asthma attack. I always feel better after I down a six pack of chilled Dos Equis. Therefore the recommended homeopathic treatment is to down a six pack of Dos Equis each time I have an asthma attack, right? What if Dos Equis is not available?

NOTE: Acute situations such as accidents, traumas, etc. are treated according to common symptoms i.e. bruising, strained muscles, bites, food poisoning, etc.

So, homeopatheticly(sic) If I’ve been stung by African bees and I am in anaphylactic shock, you would, according to homeopathy and the Law of Simillimum(upon which all homeopathy is based), administer more bee venom to ‘cure’ me?

where as chronic situations are treated individually.

And ‘traditional’ medicine does not do this? :eek: Who knew?

Potentization = series of dilution from 1X to 10M (C and M = roman numerals)
1C= 1 drop of substance to 100 drops of water; 2C = 1 drop of 1X/10,000 H20) ;3C = 1 drop of 2C/1,000,000,000 H20:
The substance is succussed (vigorously agitated/shaken and struck against firm surface) between each dilution.

One can only wonder at the import of Avogodro’s Number when these nostrums are concocted.

[Coreene]

Ric, everyone knows that if Dos Equis isn’t available you ask for a bucket of Coronitas, guac and more chips.

[Androcles]

[QUOTE=caballus;5008596]
Well, typically the OP has to work in order to feed the critters here on the farm. I was on the road all day yesterday after I left then had to tend to chores when I got home. No time to ‘play’ on the computer. No mind left to address any in depth discussions.

To address some questions & comments that have been raised and state some facts –

Simple explanation of homeopathy: based on the Law Of Simillimum meaning that what a substance can cause, it can cure. Like cures like. If a substance in its original form causes xyz symptoms in a healthy individual then in potentized form it can also cure xyz symptoms in the dis-eased indiviual.

Disease = the name given to a group of like symptoms found in a group of individuals.

Allopathy = conventional medicine that treats the symptoms; not the individual. i.e. group of patients with asthma – all given the same prescription according to their common symptoms without regard to individual peculiarities.

Homeopathy = treats the individual who is presenting with peculiar symptoms observed in that individual alone. (perhaps part of the reason that double-blind studies cannot be done for homeopathic treatments since each individual responds to dis-ease and substance in a unique way. i.e. – two individuals dx’d w/asthma. One individual may be extremely thirsty for cold drinks during active attacks while the other may have no thirst at all. One may feel better after midnite regularly while the other feels better in the mornings. Each require a remedy that is different from the other.

NOTE: Acute situations such as accidents, traumas, etc. are treated according to common symptoms i.e. bruising, strained muscles, bites, food poisoning, etc. where as chronic situations are treated individually. This, alone, raised my own question with regard to posted study of Cushings.)

Potentization = series of dilution from 1X to 10M (C and M = roman numerals)
1C= 1 drop of substance to 100 drops of water; 2C = 1 drop of 1X/10,000 H20) ;3C = 1 drop of 2C/1,000,000,000 H20:

The substance is succussed (vigorously agitated/shaken and struck against firm surface) between each dilution.

In the US Homeopathy is regulated by the FDA and the lower potencies that treat self-limiting conditions are sold over the counter. Stronger potencies that are intended to treat more serious conditions are only sold by prescription.[/QUOTE]

You forgot to answer the questions, which was how is it not adding more of something, and how does the use of different potiencies address the treatment WRT whether the condition is one of overactivity or underactivity of a particular gland/organ and how this study specifically targeted its potencies towards that issue

[Androcles]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;5008566]

Any valid veterinary treatment, homeopathic or otherwise, should be able to pass the double blind testing and be considered to be adequate to be published in a reputable veterinary journal, otherwise it’s just more snake oil.[/QUOTE]

Oops, you made an oxymoron - homeopathic treatment is not a veterinary treatment.

[Androcles]

[QUOTE=Rick Burten;5008635]

So under this scenario, you would treat the asthma attack with cold drinks for one but not the other, right? Would those cold drinks be alcoholic or non-alcoholic or does it depend. ie: I suffer an asthma attack. [/QUOTE]

Wow what a bunch of disingenuous clap trap. Who said anything about treating the disease with the symptoms?

[Ghazzu]

@Androcles;5008702

Oops, you made an oxymoron - homeopathic treatment is not a veterinary treatment.

Efficacy or lack thereof aside,it is when applied to animals.

And you might want to look up the definition of “oxymoron”.

[Androcles]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5008713]
Efficacy or lack thereof aside,it is when applied to animals.[/QUOTE]

Only in the broadest sense of ‘veterinary’ meaning ‘treating animals’. DVMs are not homeopaths and homeopaths are not DVMs. Homeopathy is not a subset of veterinary medicine it is a separate field, and there is no reason to expect clinical trials of homeopathic treatments or write ups in veterinary journals. And there is no difference to distinguish homeopathy a particular way in the treatment of animals vs humans. You’re saying homeopathy is veterinary medicine but not ‘human’ medicine?

[Ghazzu]

@Androcles;5008725

Only in the broadest sense of ‘veterinary’ meaning ‘treating animals’. DVMs are not homeopaths and homeopaths are not DVMs. Homeopathy is not a subset of veterinary medicine it is a separate field, and there is no reason to expect clinical trials of homeopathic treatments or write ups in veterinary journals. And there is no difference to distinguish homeopathy a particular way in the treatment of animals vs humans. You’re saying homeopathy is veterinary medicine but not ‘human’ medicine?

I take it you can’t wrap your mind around the concept that there are veterinarians with training in homeopathy.

Personally, I find the basic principles of medicine to be independent of species.

[Rick_Burten]

[QUOTE=Androcles;5008704]
Wow what a bunch of disingenuous clap trap. Who said anything about treating the disease with the symptoms?[/QUOTE]
ROTFLAMO.! Please respond to the scenarios provided for syphilis, leprosy and bee stings. Is the homeopathetic([sic] treatment for asthma to cause more inflammation and closing of the airways? Do you treat cancer with more cancer? After all, all homeopathy is based on the so called Law of Simillimum. right? And again I ask, what is the importance of Avogadro’s Constant/number with regard to the concocting of the nostrums and other alleged palliatives of homeopathetic[sic] origin?

[M_O_Connor]

[QUOTE=Renn/aissance;5007425]
I brought the popcorn and cheese, someone else has already brought the whine, but to make it horse related, would any of these substances effectively treat Cushings?

In any case, I see no reason why treating with ACTH wouldn’t bring about the results they found. Are there any studies that demonstrate the efficacy of Quercus robur on its own? Otherwise, what we may be reading here is a study demonstrating the use of ACTH.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, Renn. I’m not seeing that ACTH as used in this study is especially “homeopathic,” leaving aside the notion of “standardized” homeopathy being somewhat of an oxymoron, in and of itself.

The researcher does conclude that “double blind” study results are the “Holy Grail” of homeopathy…inferring that it has not yet been found?

I’m also w/Ghazzu in not understanding why homeopathy (effective or otherwise) couldn’t be embraced and practiced by vets.

(Among those surprised to hear that would be Dr. Willie McCormick, DVM of Middleburg, VA).

I guess it isn’t REAL homeopathy if it’s practiced by someone with a medical education? Odd…that crowd wanting it both ways (wants to be accepted by medical community, yet not vice versa).

[Rick_Burten]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5008713]

And you might want to look up the definition of “oxymoron”.[/QUOTE]
Does homeopathic medicine qualify?

" One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead boys got up to fight,
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot each other,

One was blind and the other couldn't see,
So they chose a dummy for a referee.
A blind man went to see fair play,
A dumb man went to shout "hooray!"
A paralysed donkey passing by,
Kicked the blind man in the eye,
Knocked him through a nine inch wall,
Into a dry ditch and drowned them all,

A deaf policeman heard the noise,
And came to arrest the two dead boys,
If you don't believe this story's true,
Ask the blind man; he saw it too"
                                          Nathan Alterman

[caballus]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5008746]
I take it you can’t wrap your mind around the concept that there are veterinarians with training in homeopathy.

Personally, I find the basic principles of medicine to be independent of species.[/QUOTE]

Scanned replies briefly and will answer/address them later on. Off to the working day again. Did want to say that I agree with Ghazzu … in fact, I have a veterinarian who is also a Homeopath. She was a vet for 20+ years before becoming certified in Veterinary Homeopathy. To me, the best of both worlds.

There are many, many Veterinarians who have gone on to become certified in Veterinary Homeopathy throughout the world. Again, one need only to do some searching around to find them.

Again, I’ll address comments that are made directly to me later on in the day.