I have thought long and hard whether to post this, or even how to post this subject without offending anyone, as it is not my intention. I do value many of the BBers like Twister etc in their professional opinions. OK, here is my dilemma, and I am asking for help. First off, before anyone jumps down my throat, remember this is a showbarn I operate with customers on training board. It is not a boarding facility.
What do you do when your customers want to control the program? I am very easy going, and I allow alot of choices to be made by my clients, and have them involved in every detail of their horses programs and show schedules, vettings, shoeing etc. But, what do you do when you feel “controlled” by your client, one that knows MUCH less than the others, has come from a backyard boarding/showing local barn situation, and you are trying to teach them how we do things?
I hate it when I have to revert to saying that they can leave anytime if they are not happy with the program/situation, or the way the business operates. What do you say when your customer wants to run your business? An example. This client is on a working student program, a very lucrative one for him I may add. He has to do 8 hours of work a week and he gets full training board for $300. I know I am insane, but it due to this very reason I am irate about being taken advantage of. On 2 occasions, I asked him to work for me when i was going to be at a show and I couldn’t get my stall cleaner. He said OK, I told him what I would pay him and when I would do it. I see him more than his MOm, who is the confrontational direct mother I hate dealing with.
So, he does the work, 2 weeks go by, I tell him when I deposit the board checks I will write him a check for his services. His Mom leaves me a bill for his sons services for more than what I pay, and it was itemized to the T including adding money for 2 other boarders who helped him because they wanted to (My best paying clients, are the hardest ones to keep from HELPING me, God Bless them!), Anyway, I was ANNOYED to say the least, and very put off by a client giving ME a bill. I explained that I had to pay him from the corporations money, not my own, and like any business there is a set pay day, not boom when you do the work! I paid him and told him I would not be needing his services in the future since it would result in us having controversy about the terms and conditions of his help. One month goes by and I set up the farrier to come do the farm. He expects payment when services are rendered, and he is NOT cheap. I have no holding fee, just leave the check with me to pay him when he is here. Well, all of them forgot, and I called them all and said I may have to reschedule him (they all understood and apologized), except the boy who is in my barn for no money. They wrote me an email and said they would discuss this with him and that they always pay him within a week or 2. Doesn’t anyone listen? He has expressed to me, and I have relayed to all the clients he wants to be paid when he shoes, not a week or 2 later, but he is understanding to the occasional lapse of memory, but doesn’t want a new precident(sp?) started. She took my saying i might reschedule personally with her email. He did come and do the barn as 2 of the others got here with checks. I wrote and email explaining that this isn’t about “her” it is about the FARMS farrier services,and he works for the FARM not her and this is an account, and he does not come shoe one horse that calls for shoeing, but he comes to do a barn call. OK, this is getting way long, but there are like 95 other issues like this, and I want professional advice from other hunter/jumper pro training barns please!
No good deed goes unpunished!
Jane ������ Most of the time, I keep my sanity by thinking of working students as a situation meant to benefit both sides (although being the teacher, I think the WSs usually come out ahead all things considered!). Students whose folks consider them very talented, those folks usually encourage their kids to be �pushier� about the privileges at your place…sometimes especially if they�ve been with you a bit longer. They�re then supposed to be getting shots at better and better horses, longer lessons, more sophisticated lessons, etc. Well, if the WS side of the equation becomes imbalanced, then I let the kid know I�ll be taking it out �in trade.� It�s a very hard balance to maintain. I give up having it be anything other than basically equal.
But the working part has rules just like real life. YOUR WS work is contract work; if you subcontract YOUR work (bring in other flunkies!), then you pay them, not me. If there�s braiding to be done, to which you agreed, then it�s done by you, not by the nearest professional at a show. Not liking his mom? Well, you don�t. That doesn�t mean you don�t like him. But I would let him know that his mom�s squirrelly attitude about what he�s entitled to, for what he puts out, is kind of cockeyed and is jeopardizing his status with you. I was a working student in the summers for 12 years at a barn in Vermont altho I didn�t do a ton of the heavy stuff ��� worked for a few hours a day for one lesson a day. Best tradeoff ever…
I have a friend who braids who had the same problem with a person who insisted she braid for them because they were ‘friends’. The woman got a little nasty, all while insisting on the friendship angle.
My friend said, ‘We are not friends, we are friendly. We do not see each other on a social basis. We are not invited to each others home. We have a friendly business relationship. That is all.’
I just re-read your post and in it you say that the boy isn’t there except to ride. I don’t know why I thought he was there all of the time.
Since they seem to be so list-oriented, I would do what someone else suggested … itemize everything! But, I’d take it one step further - and this could certainly be your “out” - and put him on a performance plan. When I worked in cellular several years ago the “performance plan” was what sales people who weren’t achieving their quota were given.
It was a last-ditch effort by management to salvage an employee before they were given their walking papers.
If you’d like some help (and if you think this is a good idea) on writing a plan, just let me know!
Robby
I know we don’t always agree, but I have to say you are crazy to keep this mom around!
I know you mean well, and you are doing this all for the boy, which I want to commend you on…BUT! His mother is going to be a detriment to your business if this keeps up! Not to mention, your mental stability!
Being a daughter of two public school educators, I know what working for board means! Before I had someone to teach me the business side to owning a boarding/show barn, I was “offended” at the costs.
Now, I have a best friend who owns/runs a show/training/breeding facility. I have MUCH more respect for what things cost now! She took me under her wing five years ago, and has been the most incredible teacher I could ever ask for! And her boyfriend is just as good, so I am learning tons!
I will not go into detail our arangement, but I will say that I couldn’t have a better situation and that all the training I have recieved from her has been PRICELESS! I really believe she has a gift, and whenever I can help her, I do it with a servant’s heart because she has served me so well throughout our friendship. I hope to pay her back one day for all she has put into me and my horse. I doubt I can, but my hope is that I can show her just how much I appreciate her hard work and effort into teaching me the horse business. She has taught me enough to let me know I don’t want to make my money that way! That is, I couldn’t do what she does in order to stay above water. I admire all of you who do that. Especially those of you who do it honestly.
Jane, you have given what many of us dreamed of having at this kid’s age. You don’t have to let him stay. I know you want to give him a chance, but Snowbird made some very good points regarding child labor…of course WE know it’s not harmful, but THEY might use it to harm you. You’re obviously quite succesful, and I’d hate to see this boy’s mother create the hell for you that she has the potential to do.
Snowbird…I really appreciate your explaination about the trailers…it makes a lot of sense, and I admit when I read it, I initially thought “control freak”! I’m sorry for thinking that! Your respose was very well explained.
Jane–I think taking the advice to draft and distribute a set of barn rules is a good thing, but I think you need to go one step further with this kid (or his mother…) and spell out in writing exactly what he is giving you and exactly what you are giving in return.
Seems to me that you are presently getting the short end of the stick.
I agree wholehearteldy with those who say if the kid was truly committed, he’d be there more.
If it meant enough to him, he’d manage to get the school work out of the way in time to be there more. (Trust me, as a horseless kid, I figured out a lot of strategies.)
So now you have someone who doesn’t feel that your barn is worth going to any great effort to be involved with, but expects that you should be making great efforts for them to be there.
I’d let them know right now that the time between now and April is a probationary period, so to speak, and if the kid expects to stay beyond that, you need to see some level of committment, not simply a going therough the motions of meeting the minimum requirement.
Jane I had not thought much about it before at all but Snowbird does have some good points .IRS does in fact view barter services as income so beware and the injury thing may be valid!would he expect workmans comp ?? are the rules in nj that strict if they are talk to a lawyer quick the “MOM” could be trouble later!
I have thought long and hard whether to post this, or even how to post this subject without offending anyone, as it is not my intention. I do value many of the BBers like Twister etc in their professional opinions. OK, here is my dilemma, and I am asking for help. First off, before anyone jumps down my throat, remember this is a showbarn I operate with customers on training board. It is not a boarding facility.
What do you do when your customers want to control the program? I am very easy going, and I allow alot of choices to be made by my clients, and have them involved in every detail of their horses programs and show schedules, vettings, shoeing etc. But, what do you do when you feel “controlled” by your client, one that knows MUCH less than the others, has come from a backyard boarding/showing local barn situation, and you are trying to teach them how we do things?
I hate it when I have to revert to saying that they can leave anytime if they are not happy with the program/situation, or the way the business operates. What do you say when your customer wants to run your business? An example. This client is on a working student program, a very lucrative one for him I may add. He has to do 8 hours of work a week and he gets full training board for $300. I know I am insane, but it due to this very reason I am irate about being taken advantage of. On 2 occasions, I asked him to work for me when i was going to be at a show and I couldn’t get my stall cleaner. He said OK, I told him what I would pay him and when I would do it. I see him more than his MOm, who is the confrontational direct mother I hate dealing with.
So, he does the work, 2 weeks go by, I tell him when I deposit the board checks I will write him a check for his services. His Mom leaves me a bill for his sons services for more than what I pay, and it was itemized to the T including adding money for 2 other boarders who helped him because they wanted to (My best paying clients, are the hardest ones to keep from HELPING me, God Bless them!), Anyway, I was ANNOYED to say the least, and very put off by a client giving ME a bill. I explained that I had to pay him from the corporations money, not my own, and like any business there is a set pay day, not boom when you do the work! I paid him and told him I would not be needing his services in the future since it would result in us having controversy about the terms and conditions of his help. One month goes by and I set up the farrier to come do the farm. He expects payment when services are rendered, and he is NOT cheap. I have no holding fee, just leave the check with me to pay him when he is here. Well, all of them forgot, and I called them all and said I may have to reschedule him (they all understood and apologized), except the boy who is in my barn for no money. They wrote me an email and said they would discuss this with him and that they always pay him within a week or 2. Doesn’t anyone listen? He has expressed to me, and I have relayed to all the clients he wants to be paid when he shoes, not a week or 2 later, but he is understanding to the occasional lapse of memory, but doesn’t want a new precident(sp?) started. She took my saying i might reschedule personally with her email. He did come and do the barn as 2 of the others got here with checks. I wrote and email explaining that this isn’t about “her” it is about the FARMS farrier services,and he works for the FARM not her and this is an account, and he does not come shoe one horse that calls for shoeing, but he comes to do a barn call. OK, this is getting way long, but there are like 95 other issues like this, and I want professional advice from other hunter/jumper pro training barns please!
Jane, I don’t run a show barn, but I’ve been in and out of enough of them in an observant way to wonder about one technique I had a long conversation about with one manager. She had problems similar to yours and we got to talking about how people only see and hear what they want to see and hear (hence that great story about the 12 year old “training” the 21 year old, I think!). Getting past their selective perception (and “interpretation”) is the biggest problem, it seems.
The manager I mentioned took to writing and sending a certified, as-businesslike-as-possible letter to problematic clients, spelling out exactly what the issues were. (I remember suggesting bolded, bulleted or numbered lists instead of just a block of paragraphs when she showed me a copy of one letter.) However, she felt it wasn’t really the letter itself, but rather the circumstances of the communication which got the job done for her.
At the end of her letters, she would ask the recipients to bring the letter with them if they had questions or wished to discuss the issues further. She said she said that under the guise that, with 36 different owners associated with a barn of almost 70 horses, she couldn’t remember the details of everyone’s situation. She also said that she explained to them that it was just barn policy to send important information via certified mail to be sure that everyone got the message and to have a way to know when people got it.
It was her opinion that the formality scared the begeebers out of the troublemakers–many of whom, BTW, were like your problem clients: new to the idea of full care and control–and they either shut up or got out (they had a waiting list anyway).
I thought that her letters, which she didn’t send out all that much–just when she couldn’t deal with someone face-to-face or when something kept reoccuring in spite of her attempts to resolve it personally–dealt more effectively with the selectivity problem and that that was why they worked, too. I think it’s something about the way people open up and read snail-mail, especially when it comes in a special way (which includes priority mail as well).
We’re all such head games, as I’m sure you are aware. The trick is getting INTO our heads, wouldn’t you say! I don’t know if the formal letter idea would work for you because it also obviously depends on the atmosphere of the barn–this was a part breeding/boarding/showing (AQHA halter) operation with a lot of absentee owners and a full-time manager who was not the barn’s owner (another absentee) or trainer (who was around so little he, too, may as well have been an absentee).
So I don’t know if this would work for you, but what you wrote reminded me of it. Good luck.
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Jane:
Please don’t take this as a direct attack against you, because that’s not how I intend what I’m about to say to be taken …
Boy, I’m glad I’m not, nor have I ever been, on “training board at an AHSA” barn. It sounds entirely too control-freak to me.
I personally subscribe to the “own your own riding” school. And I seek out trainers who give me tools to think and be successful on my own. I left my last barn due to a trainer who was of the “just do it because I said so” mentality. Of course, I’m almost 30 and I work my a*s off to be able to ride. I expect at least a mature and responsible explanation for a concept that I don’t feel comfortable with.
If you’re out there creating robots then I would urge you to read Geoff Teall’s recent article in Practical Horseman about the “Big Eq” mentality. I’d also encourage you to read the article Todd Minikus wrote in the same issue.
Is your goal to teach these people to ride and win at any cost or to be good horsemen? If you only want to teach riders, then you’ll never teach the kid to be a trainer. So cut the cord and move on.
These people sound to me as if they need to be involved and in control at some degree. You need to appreciate this and create a program that “kills them with kindness” by positively reinforcing their goals.
Have a heart to heart talk with them. Ask the kid and his mother what their goals are. If you don’t think you can realistically help them achieve these goals, then step out of it gracefully. It’s not a personal battle of who’s right and who’s wrong, because you, of course, think you’re right and they likely think they’re right too.
You sound as if you feel unappreciated. (“The horse I found for them for $3500.”) Did they pay you a commission on the sale? Was $3500 all they could afford? If so, then put a sock in it. You did what you were contracted to do.
If he were doing things like not showing up to ride until 2 days before the show then I would not have much empathy or sympathy for him either. But it sounds like he’s committed to being there and doing his homework, so I think you should step up to the plate and really position yourself as a teacher and mentor to him, not as a dictator.
Think of horses. How many horses get passed along because they’re “difficult?” And eventually (if they’re lucky) they land in the hands of an exceptional rider and are allowed to flourish and blossom under that rider’s care? That’s usually not accomplished by cramming the horse into a “do it or die” way of going. It’s achieved by building a riding program that reinforces the horse’s positive characterics and abilities.
I do understand where you’re coming from, in a sense, because ultimately these individuals contribute $$$ into your program. They are clients and you have to deal with them (unless you have a waiting list). As someone who works in a client capacity, I understand how they can frustrate you at times. This is where your job of educating the family on process - not just educating them in the tack - comes into play. You need to be the bigger person here. You are the person who has positioned yourself as a professional and as an authority.
Trust me, if you’re as frustrated with them as you seem to be, they are equally as frustrated with you. And an upset client can do more with negative word of mouth in one or two months than you will ever be able to rebuild in two years! Do think of this from a reputation management perspective. You need to manage your reputation!!!
Again, I’m not meaning to bash you at all and PUHLEEZE don’t take it that way. I think you are very dedicated to being a professional and being successful. I just have been on the other end of a dictatorial trainer and I know how stifling it can be.
Simple communication can do much to repair the damage that already exists, as well as relieve your apparent frustration!
Good luck!
Robby
since Mom seems to like giving you “bills” and papers telling what she thinks you should be doing, you might prepare a non-working student bill for one month and let her see exactly where she stands. Either she allows her son to honor the working student contract you made with him or she can pay like everyone else!
Jane, I think the difference here may be that you see the definition of a “working student” (there to learn the business) differently than Mom (working son equates pay). Quite a difference, and it didn’t hit me until I read your last post.
I have boarded in barns where there have been only one or two boarders, regular boarding facilities where a trainer is available, and show barns. I have paid up front to the trainer wormer and farrier costs (incorporated into the monthly bill). The owner/trainer sets the farrier schedule, worming schedule. In exchange, I did not have to be present. Fair exchange, when one works 40+ hours a week.
I have the best all worlds now. I may use my own vet and farrier. I set the schedule. Large barn, but very very limited number of “boarders”.
All of us follow along with the program - if we didn’t we wouldn’t be there.
In my situation, at this point of my life (and as long as I remain in South Jersey) I want the choice of my vet and farrier. I know I can count on them through rain, snow, blizzard. I know I receive the best care. And they know they will be paid, on time every time.
Jane, your operation is small enough that if they do not “fit the program” then it may be time to move on. I know you must have a waiting list.
One more question - Snowbird (Vicki) - why no trailers belong to boarders? Just curious. 
Jane, you are a good hearted person! I have to admire that in you. You are giving super opportunities to a young man. I hope this works out for you and him. (and his mother)
My first reaction to your posts were to get rid of them. But now, If they are not upsetting the dynamic of your operation, maybe it will work out for the best of you all.
Lastly, show barns are so different than boarding barns. As you know, there has to be rules for ALL and ALL the same, or the dynamic will fall to peices.
I keep horses at my small farm and I keep a horse (that I also ride) with my trainer. I control all at my place, but when I am at their place- I follow all rules including different vet, farrier! It works!
And PS- your “babies” look fabulous!
Jane I can appreciate your frustration, it sounds like you have really given this student your all. However, if he is a junior rider, he is limited by the budget and time contraints that his mother sets for him. As a rider whose parents provided stingy assistance during my junior years, I am always respectful of whatever a parent chooses to budget for this extremly expensive sport. We lose sight of the the fact that many parents dont view this sport as an entitlement but rather as a privilege.
Although I know you mean well, I am concerned that your student or his fellow barn mates could read this post since it is a very popular site these days and be embaressed. I am not trying to criticise you but I know that I would have been moritified if the short cuts my parents forced me to take were publizied in this manner.
I hope you manage to work things out with your client. Perhaps you should consider communicating with the mother directly and simply express how much you care about her child and want him to succeed.
Good luck!!!
karin, my farm policy has a medical provision for someone getting hurt on the farm. Secondly, I go to my accountant with my books and explain the whole thing. Supposedly, if someone already pays you cash for services, you can allow them to do anything to help? Maybe I should check farther into the intracacies of how this works.
Jane is there a reason that you simply have removed the working student option from this family?
Is the horse/child really worth all this aggrivation?
Unless they are, I would tell them that you have changed your practices regarding working student/boarding options. Spell out what you want/need in return what they get.
You are a training barn and as such, they come to you for your services. Unless losing this client would cause you a large hardship, I say let them go.
Unless they are a major money source and it sounds like they aren’t, then they are not worth the aggrivation.
Every good farrier expects payment at the time, either a barn check or one from the customer. Very few bill these days and then usually only for good friends and long standing clients.
Maybe send out a “policy” to all clients reminding them of the rules, farrier, etc. It is the new year after all.
You could also include mention of what anyone would be paid for work, if they did any, etc.
That way, you are reminding everyone, not just that family.
I does indeed sound like you need to pass out a list of standards and rules. Put it down to everyone in the barn like a “Yearly Reminder of Barn Rules”, that way no one person feels offended or singled out.
Spell out exactly what is expected and the time schedual in which things will be done. Make sure you include vet and farrier visits for regular oppointments for shots and shoeing.
I can understand why you expect payment for the farrier right away. Too many people think that they can “pay later” for services, and oops things are going wrong at the barn and they leave. Not only does the barn end up getting stiffed somehow but the farrier does to. Then the farrier is annoyed at the Trainer/Manager for not taking care of it and think the next time “Will I get paid for all this work?”
I would also let them know that it is standard practice to leave a check for the vet and dentist as well. We all work on “do the work, get paid” principle and there is a reason for this. I know of very few people these days that will bill on a net 30 schedual.
Are your clients aware of the difference between a boarding and a training facility? Some people don’t know the difference and that might be the problem. You had metioned that they were doing schooling shows and came to you from some where else.
Know one likes to loose a client unless they become a liability or a hassel then there comes a time when you might have to cut them loose. Some people you just can’t deal with and that is human nature. Some times you also need to become a B^&%h and not be at all flexable to get the point accross. At any rate you will need to make a choice with difficult people. Stick to you guns and stand up for the better of the facility or waffle. If and when these people decide to leave (because they are probably thinking about it)Make the choice for yourself that you can live with. Because if there is one thing I know, you have to be able to look yourself in the face every morning.
Since you said that they don’t seem to understand the difference between a show barn and a boarding facility, why not include in the barn rules a statement such as, if you are unwilling to leave check ahead of time for the vet, farrier, etc than they will be responsible for contacting the person and being there for the needed items, etc.
From what you have said, I doubt she would want to go out of her way to be there.
Giving them a break down of what your training board covers with it being a show barn as well as a break down of what it would be with all the little fees added on of a boarding facility for the same level care.
Most people don’t realize they really are getting a deal with training board verus the added on charges.
Tell them that if they cannot abide by the rules associated with the training program and define what a working student really is and it doesn’t sound like he is one. If they don’t like it, suggest that a better place might be more suited for them as you plan on doing more shows etc in the future and will need working students that can and will handle the other aspects of the business and are realiable, etc.
Sorry this rambled, but I wanted to include some of the ideas I have seen from my parents business and the barns I have been with over the years.
Definatly as letter and certified isn’t a bad idea.
We all have to determine what we want as a level of cooperation from our boarders and the people who share our home. For most of us the barn is more our home than the house we sleep in is our home.
For example, I will not permit anyone who keeps their horse here to store their trailer here. Why? because it makes me feel insecure. You need to set the terms very clearly when you accept someone, don’t make excuses because of their past history.
We require that the rider be here to load and ship their horse and to be here when we return home and unload. If they don’t then there is a $25.00 valet fee for what ever they neglect. It is clear when they come here that we expect them to be equally responsible.
The valet fee is then paid to whoever has to do the work they shirked. If someone wants full service then they have to pay extra for the extra service and we give that money to whoever covers for them.
We could not function if we had to hire enough people to be all things to all people. Every parent believes their child is the the most important one on the farm. If they want undivided attention then you simply say that will cost you the income I receive from my other students who would have to leave. If you are willing to pay $5000 a month for my services than please tell me. Otherwise, to keep your cost down we must all share.
We do that during lesson times. The students getting lessons have a priority over those who stay here on a permanent basis. I have simply explained that if they cannot be courteous to the lessons and find some other time to ride everyone would have to pay three times the board. So they need to consider that those lessons are not an inconvenience but a way to keep their costs affordable.
All of my boarders and students need to understand that horse shows are the way we make the mortgage payments. They therefore are required to act has hosts for all of you who attend our shows to make your day enjoyable. OR! the option is they will not have a barn at all and I wiull retire on the profit from a developer.
Jane, as I have said to you, it’s a two way street. If your clients cannot comprehend the necessities of your rules and if they refuse to comply they will in the end do you more damage than good because you have those who will cooperate who tend feel abused and cheated.
