Customers abusing Trainers

[Regalmeans]

Jane - you know I don’t come from a big show barn but we have alot of rules @ my barn like yours - like how the trainer handles shoeing, vetting, etc, does all the show arrangements, etc and when I started boarding there I got a huge boarding contract clarifying what I did and didn’t do, did and didn’t pay for, what was extra, and that kind of stuff. My trainer also went over all of it with me and what she expected from me in terms of how I kept my horse, rode, showed, etc. Did you give the parents something like this so they could see how it breaks down?

Also I KNOW you are fairly cheap for your level - maybe letting her know how much she COULD be paying will make her appreciate what she has more (my trainer has been known to point out when someone bitches at her about a cost that they could go to so-and-sos where they charge twice as much for whatever and people often then realize how well they have it!)

If he’s a working student you should be getting ALOT more! I think to some extent helping out at the barn for little stuff is common curtesy, I would expect alot more of a working student (then again I admit I am not familiar with your program!) and they should come to shows even if they do not ride - I always try to go to my trainer’s shows not just b/c of my work but it is educational to watch her and her clients/friends ride.

If you can’t work things out you probably should let him go or else you’ll just keep losing and your other clients may come to resent him b/c of how easy he gets it!

Sarah

[MsHunter]

OK, here is the situation as it stands now. I took everyones advice and thought about it. I hired someone on these boards to write up my farm rules and fee schedule (which I unfortunately hadn’t given them as it was, as they started on
free board for work). WHen the arrangement started I was quite content. He did stalls 5 days a week (8 of them) and water. I therefore didn’t have to “pay” NJ wages to someone. This began in April, 2000. By August, he fell behind in his schoolwork, and didn’t have alot of time to ride (as he works EXTREMELY SLOW), so his Mom asked if we could let him do stalls 3 days weekdays and weekends. I explained that wouldn’t benefit me, I like to do stalls on weekends myself. She didn’t want to lose his sponsorship but needed it to be amended. I suggested they pay me $300 a month (felt that would financially cover his horses monthly upkeep, feed,hay, bedding, my out of pocket), and that he would work 3 days 2 hours a day (rate $10/hour) or 4 days 1.5 hours a week. He would do blankets, groooming, changing turnouts, feed the mares in their paddock etc. So, she has worked this into a situation (that I agreed to) that works well for her, but not for me. I now pay my Mexican employee who does this barn after the vet clinic , $100 a week for Mon-THurs (he wants time off). I do stalls 3 days a week. So I am paying out 100 a week, doing stalls 3 days myself, and he usually has not much to do when he comes as it has already been done. He does whatever I ask, but without the stalls there isnt’ alot. I however expected he would spend more time here but he chooses not to, but I think that has to do with his ride situation. He lives 25 minutes away, and he isnt’ here long enough for them to drop him off and come back. Anyway, all the information is getting drawn up to be sent to all the customers and prospective new clients (have 3 on wait list), and I am going to give this until April at which time I will tell her we need to discuss the past year, and how I want to move forward. I think it is only fair to give the boy a real chance that he may not have otherwise.
I also want the chance to prove what I can do for him, which I feel still hasn’t been done at the shows only at home. We are in an extremely competitive area, and he has yet to get any good prizes, he really needed such a rework on his riding, and is still being educated, but I have a strong feeling this summer he will be someone to reckon with. ALthough he doesn’t wear a showbow and a monogramed collar, he did need an overhaul when he came. His too short boots HURT HIS LEGS when they rubbed against the horse. He bought semi-customs. His saddle was too small and didn’t fit the horse, he now has a new USED one.
etc etc etc. Also, they are friends with someone who operates a tack shop and bought TSs for 1/2 price. OK, so the long and short of it is we will give him until April and reevaluate the situation.
I feel guilty right now that he can’t ride, I have no indoor and the ground is frozen solid.

[Lord_Helpus]

I probably will get flamed for being a Devil’s Advocate, but, here goes:

Keep in mind that in the 2 situations presented, all I know is what you wrote, so if I am misrepresenting things it is because I misunderstood your original post:

1. The boy does extra (paid) work for you. He (or Mom) wants $$ upon completion of work. You explain that it is impossible. He must wait several weeks to be paid. Then farrier comes in. Wants immediate payment from boy/mom. You explain that immediate payment is required by them. — But not to them. I, too, might be confused by such a double standard. What’s good for one person might as well be good for another.

2. Riding horse for which you are getting paid for training: [Side question—does horse’s owner know that you are using her horse for teaching lessons?] If boy did not take a lesson on the horse, who would have ridden it that day? Would it have gotten “schooled”? Were you being paid by owner to school horse 3x/week (or 2x or 4x)? Was this session one of those times? [As an aside: I have found out that trainers have used my horses for lessons and I have been LIVID. Is this a policy of yours that all owners know and approve of?]. I can see a scenario in which Mom thinks that your son is doing you a service by riding a horse that you would have/should have ridden instead. Not that she is right, just that there are two sides to everything.

All of the above being said: kick them out. Do all of you a favor.

[Hattie]

In this day and time it is hard to trust anybody concerning lawsuits. I am very cautious about letting people(friends)come on my property to use my jumps. I do not allow any juniors. Case in point, our office manager had her 9 yr old son break his finger during a neighborhood kids football game (5 other 8-9 yr olds). He had surgery to have a pin inserted in hand. Well guess what! She just got a letter from her health insurance company - they want the names and address of all the children that were playing because they are planning on sueing the parents!!!
We are talking about a $12000+ bill!! What’s this country coming too? - soon no one will be able to do ANYTHING without the fear of losing everything you own! So Jane I would check very carefully into this, especially since laws concerning minors are completely different.

[Hattie]

HE’D BE OUTTA THERE!!!

[upperco]

Great Kid+Bad Mom=trouble/lawsuit.You have no option.Good bye kid,sorry.You won’t ever regret it,let him stay under some change of policy and you’ll kick yourself all over the farm and cuss yourself while driving up`Schooly’s Mt.

[Sparky]

Hi Jane–you and I have talked privately about some of these things, and you know that I have just closed down my boarding operation because of one thing and one thing only. No matter how much you like the kid, no matter how much he wants to learn, no matter how much he might like to work, and no matter how talented he might be, you still have to deal with his mother. And if she is calling all the shots (or thinks she should be) you are beating your head against a wall. This is a person who cares about you only in the context of what you can do for her son–she is a user–and when she is done with you, she will move on to someone else. Sometimes the kid sees what is happening and is mortified, but can do nothing. Sometimes they happily go along with it. Either way, it’s the same result~~a selfishness that you won’t change. I have had some wonderful kids in my program, but when the bottom line is that Mom can’t be dealt with, the best thing you can do FOR YOURSELF is to show them the door. Give yourself a New Year’s present: tell the kid to look you up when he is independent and you can get down to business then.

Please, all you legions of good Moms out there~~I’m not talking about you, but you might recognize at least one of your friends!

[MsHunter]

Thanks Twister, couldn’t have said it all better myself. Vicki, you are right. The other clients feel very annoyed that they pay 2 1/2 times as much, feel they are getting a deal, and the id pays less than 1/2 and his Mom is always annoyed.
PWynn, if you send this to them, I will figure out how to get back at you <G>!

I think I have been having trouble by keeping them too informed, too involved, and by being too caring. When you do the AA barn thing, you just get the credit card # and charge whatever is needed and necessary to the bill, saves all the headaches doesn’t it?

As far as the one who thinks I am not training him to be a horseman, they really missed my point!
He is supposed to be here when I prep babie, bandage horses, have the vet doing joints, ultrasounding mares, doing prepurchases. But, he hasn’t done most of that. he mostly has been here to take advantage of his sessions, and to do the little bit of work I outlined.

I also felt the shows I went to with other clients he would attend to not slave over us, but to WATCH LISTEN and LEARN!

I wanted to give back to the industry and give a client a chance to be a horseman. I felt I could afford to have 2 working students. My first one is working out miserabley. The child is fine, it is the Mom (not even the Dad or Granddad, they are easy to deal with). I think she is a control freak, and hasn’t realized what I do is not about control, it is like Colin said, I am paid for my knowledge to make decisions that ultimately result in winning at the shows and having healthy safe horses at the farm.

[Snowbird]

In New Jersey the child labor laws are very strict and no one under 18 is permitted to be “employed” with horses. They are considered the equivalent of children working in a shop with buzz saws.

As to the trailers, well one we have had situation where someone moved out in the middle of the night leaving me with a $4,000 board bill. I’ve been in this for 30 years and have probably experienced everything.

I don’t take people to board anymore because of that who want to go off on their own with their own trailer. You can’t be sure they will come home and pay their bill. Unfortunately, one or two selfish egocentric people can spoil it for everyone. We also had a horse ring that showed up on farms at night and took horses out of the pasture. They took them to the local auction and got what appeared to be a legal bill of sale.

Therefore, if there are not trailers on the farm, I am aware when one does arrive. Since, I do not have boarders who are likely to be picking up or returning their trailers.

As much as I would like to believe everyone is honest and trustworthy I am sometimes surprised and the stablemen’s lien doesn’t work if you have lost custody. Unfortunately, I am frequently the victim of a sob story and don’t want to deprive the children when families cannot afford all their activities. So yes we do let people run up a bill for a month or two.

We are good horsepeople and very bad bookkeepers. I find it difficult to say on the 1st, or out of here. Money is not what we are about, we are about teaching. My dogs are really good about letting me know if anything strange is moving when it shouldn’t. I must add that we are rarely imposed on, but I think that’s because we have our rules and we do enforce them.

I hope you all realize that the people who support the farm count on shipping charges to help with their costs. Having your own trailer and inviting others to join you not only deprives me of income but also causes hard feelings on the farm for those who are not so invited. To keep it a happy family situation you need to keep everyone equal and that includes their fees.

[pwynnnorman]

I was wondering how you found the time to do stalls 3 days and ride and teach, too! Who does your grooming? I’d think that would be a biggie for you, too, and isn’t that something–presentation–that would be valuable to him as well? I only have 13, but I’ll be darned if I have time to do the stalls, ride and keep everyone looking presentable (which I don’t even BEGIN to bother with, not dealing directly with the public). And then there’s handling the babies! Yikes, girl, how do you find the time with so little help!

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
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[Janet]

Jane, between this thread and the one about wearing a Pink coat, I think you may be more ambitious for this student than he is. You may be “willing” him to be more dedicated, because you can see his potential.

But if he DOESN’T have the dedication/ambition ON HIS OWN, you aren’t doing anybody a favor by making things easy for him.

[moose]

A couple comments from a non-h/j professional, Jane, don’t be offended by PamM’s post, she brought up valid points as to the abuses can happen whether they’re real or perceived. For everyone that is legit I’ve seen an awful lot that operate like that as well, and for people that have experienced it or observed it makes them “once burned, twice shy?” In the end I think common sense and being honest on both ends prevails. I also really give you credit for givin the situation a chance through April, to try and see where these people are coming from, it is rough to have to work when others don’t, and sometimes socially, I think this bothers the parents more then the kids. I never got the impression from reading your posts you in any way operate this way.

As for labor laws, I think your covered to an extent under agricultural laws since you breed. Breeding can denote agricultural vs. business laws, but hey I’m no lawyer, so check into it. However, what I’ve observed is that while a barn may entail agricultrual work, the people & clients they have are now way more suburban then agricultural and don’t understand what it entails.

It’s a hard subject, since I certantly wouldn’t have gotten horse experience if I hadn’t been allowed to work as a kid around barns, but because I did I also know it gets abused. Trust your instincts and be cautious.

[MsHunter]

Thanks Tiny Tot, I had been thinking of sending out the barn rules. I feel like this is my fault since they come from such a hokey dokey barn. This is new to them. I have tried to explain they are paying for me to make the correct decisions for them so their child can be successful. He is a GREAT kid, very respectful, has a good upbringing and wants to be a trainer one day. I keep hanging in there for him, but, his Mom has annoyed me so much I can barely look at her. SHe always has a “look” on her face, and she is always a B$%$^&? She was used to her son being the most popular kid in a barn and the best rider.
I told her life is different in an AHSA barn, everyone is on an equal field, I play no favorites. I also explained there is no “best” rider, that if they ride with me they damn well better ride well, that is why I am hired! She also had a fit at one of our infamous Zone 2 shows with the 10horse/10minutes schooling breaks, and he was having trouble, and I was yelling so we could get the job done and show (which we did) and I explained later if I had 5 other clients in that break that he would not have shown that day due to how poorly he was riding/thinking. She is not used to hearing anything like that, but darn, this is a BIG step up from the little show circuit he once did and he isn’t going to be a star anymore and he is going to have to work harder than ever sitting on his 3500 dollar horse I so kindly found for them!
They have no idea how big of a deal it is to have gotten 3 3rds already in the childrens hunter on this horse in such a short time, with spending NO MONEY. They also stipulate when they can buy things when I have given them a list and given them ample time to purchase. It is old having my bits, draw reins, standing martingales, open front boots, etc borrowed. (Borrow til I decide you need it for your horse, then buy it), that is my policy. One time I gave him a lesson on another clients horse, and she asked me how much I was paying her son to train it! I was like “Are you kidding me?”

[jch]

I have a “hokey dokey” little boarding barn. I take the first timers kids that are from non-horsey families and, hopefully, help them learn about horses first, riding second and showing third. I am not a show barn, but as the kids get to the point that they buy their first pony and can navigate walk-trot around the ring, they naturally want to show. My prices are not A show barn prices, but I try to make people understand that you don’t get a Lexus for a Subaru price I try to make the kids and parents aware of the difference between what we are doing (t-ball equivalent) and what my daughter does (A shows for a “real” trainer at a “real show barn”).
It’s one thing to be the best in a small, unschooled pool, but when you start competing where everyone is as capable as you are, small things will make the difference. This mom may be feeling badly that she can’t do more for her kid - but harassing the very person who is helping her is not the key. Your best avenue might actually be through the kid. Anyone old enough to be a working student is old enough to understand some hard facts. I would sit down with the kid, explain the situation and ask him whether he wants to talk to his mother or whether he wants you to handle it. If he says you should handle it, I like the certified letter route! Good luck!!

[Twister]

It sounds like you pay about 100 bucks an hour!!!

This is what I did when I was billing for services, etc. and the friend I help now and then does a similar thing.

Every year, with the December bill, a letter goes out. It states the shows we will be going to that year and what you are expected to do/bring. For example, if you are sending your horse and you will not be there, you are expected to send three signed checks. (Show bill, feed bill, braider)
If your horse is boarded elswhere and coming to the show to be on full care, you should bring buckets, etc. It is all on a list. At the bottom, it says, “In order to be fair to all clients, there can be no exceptions.” The customer need to sign a copy and send it back.

I don’t look at your situation as one with a positive ending, but as a last chance effort, I would sit down with her, explain that you pay her son on X day and, just as employees at any other business do not send bills, he doesn’t need to either. The blacksmith has expressed a desire to be paid by all the customers when services are rendered and it includes her. In order for you to run your business in a professional manner, all the customers have to be on the same page.

I think the mother thinks her boy is Micheal Matz and Rodney Jenkins, all rolled into one. Time will show her otherwise, but probably not until she gets the drift at her next trainer, or the one after that…

[Spunky]

Jane, you are paying way too much for your “working student”. He should feel priveleged that he is allowed to ride extra horses at all. Don’t give these people board breaks, just let 'em ride & help/teach them while they do it. That is a fair exchange. No money, just the chance to ride different horses.

Show these people the door and then reestablish your working student policies with somebody new. There is always someone out there with no $$ but with some combination of determination and talent.

[system]

Um I hate this type of thing Jane I know what you are going through.It is for this very reason that I do not have “working students”,it always seems that one party feels abused!The only student that I have who could be considered a working student pays for all her lessons coaching at shows etc doesnt own her own horse . I gave hera green horse to work with two years ago she did all her own work paid all his bills for two years got two year end awards and now he is leased to one of my students .The only thing I gave her that she didnt pay for was the lease fee on the horse.Honestly if they do not pay for everything the way the rest of the world does they should go because it sounds as if they will poison other apples if you know what I mean. Not worth it .Also if you can not give them the boot for whatever reason then try this he works for x amount an hour and a regular schedule type thing
but he or they if you prefer pay the way everybody else does .At beginning of each month you present them a bill for all lessons etc you know what i mean and they pay it ,since you ahve paid him like a real job they pay you like a real; trainer which you are but they apparently do not see it that way.GOOD LUCK Karin

[MsHunter]

I don’t like your comment about him “riding” a horse and assuming it was one of my clients horses that I should have been riding. To have even brought that up is untasteful. That never even entered this discussion.I have one weak adult who wants her horse to be what she calls
“idiot proof”. She has asked me to teach any of my clients on him once a week, it saves her a day of riding. I also professionally school this horse for her once a week, and she takes a lesson on him once a week, and that makes her very very very happy, as she only has to ride him ALL BY HERSELF one or 2 times a week. But, to change a subject and bring things up I would have never thought of doing in my life is simply ludicrous.
I am sorry, you hit a nerve, and have not only insulted my integrity, but put me in a category with others you know that I dont belong in.
I am sorry I ever posted this. It was simple. How much is enough, What is too little. Nothing more nothing less.

[Snowbird]

No it is not covered by agriculture since it is not her own child. Any child under the age of 18 is specifically prohibited from being employed to work with horses. They are considered a dangerous and unpredictable animal and therefore come under the category of heavy dangerous equipment. Just a parents are not permitted to have their childre use a sit-down mower to cut the grass.

If it is determined that he is receiving a value for his services and he is not registered as a working student who pays tuition for learning he is not covered under your policy. That policy covers people on your farm who deal only with their own horse. Any working student not having registered for a working status that receives any kind of value is considered an employee. For example if as a result of carelessness he allowed someone else to get hurt he is your employee. The insurance company would seek relief from the damages by going to your workmens compensation company because he was an employee at that time and not a customer. If you don’t have working papers filed by that junior then you are in violation of the child labor laws.

The federal Labor Board is seriously looking into violations of child labor and have been advised to check horse farms as the most likely place to find such violations. I know because they came here and geve me all the paperwork to prove that children were not permitted to be employed unless they are the children of the farmer.

Had a great time pointing out to my kids that I could over-work and have them do anything because they were a farmer’s kids. And weren’t they ever pleased! The other interesting thins is that after 18, it is legal for parents to work for kids and not get paid but the kids have to get a salary.

[rusty]

Jane I train kids on a local level, How ever I try to run a barn like an A barn.

No matter what level you are showing at it is usually the ones that you try to help the most that do the things you described. I had one client whose daughter gets along with a particularly Hot horse of mine, so I let her ride and show him. She has done really well with him after she learned to ride him. One day I over heard her mother say she had trained him. After picking up my jaw off of the arena floor I reminded her that he was 21 years old and had won quite a few championships when I was showing him, so it was impossible for her daughter to have trained him, since her daughter is only 12.

My best paying clients watch my daughter in emergencys and won’t accept gifts of any kind or discounts etc.

I think it is a personal problem of those clients.

Next time they send you a bill for something send them an itemized bill for your services.

If the boy is that good and/or you like him that much you can do what you are doing for the rider and ignore the mother if that is at all possible. Just remember you are helping a kid with obnoxious parents and hopefully some day he will give another kid in his situation a break.