CWD: Redo on custom saddle?

[hj0519]

[QUOTE=amnich123;7606163]
When I ride this week I will try and ask one of the girls around the barn to get a picture of me sitting in the saddle with a normal half pad.

As far as flap size goes, do you think it’s too long and that a 2L would be better? I’ve ridden in a 17" 2L and it fit well, but rep told me right off the bat that where my knee was hitting on that saddle was incorrect and that I’d need to go to a 3L. Sounds like I might be between a 2L & 3L.

Again, with emphasis the rep told me that the flap was perfect but when I drop my stirrups I’m seeing where the flap is wrong.

I agree with what you’re saying. It depends on the rep.[/QUOTE]

Depending on your definition of “normal” for a half pad, that could be providing just as much thickness as the Ogilvy and causing the same problem. Get a picture either with just a regular saddle pad or a Thinline, if you have to have the extra padding. You don’t necessarily have to have a half pad, especially if the problem is that all of the extra padding is messing with how the saddle fits the horse.

[vxf111]

I do not speak CWD flap language. LOL. :):)

Right now you’re tipped forward onto the pommel with a lot of space behing your butt between that and the cantle and you’re perched up on top of the saddle. I think if the saddle sat level, your center of gravity would place you more in the center of the saddle with more equal space from crotch to pommel and butt to cantle. I think it will then be the right seat size, although I’d like to see this to confirm.

When you can actually be in the center of the saddle, you should be able to sit properly instead of being pushed forward. That will naturally shift all of you back to the center, and along with it your leg. I then think you will find that the flap is just sort of an off shape for your leg confirmation. You have a nice long leg (lucky) but a lot of the length is knee to heel. I think when you’re sitting centered you could do with a longer, slightly straigher flap. I think your leg will be behind the padded part of the flap once you’re centered. The flap just looks to me to be the wrong shape for you. It’s probably not dreadful-- but it doesn’t seem perfect or what I’d expect from an allegedly “made just for you/to your measurements” “custom” saddle either.

Why do you NEED a half pad at all? Let’s see this saddle on the horse’s naked back, for starters.

[karasha]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7604638]
FWIW based on those photos alone- I do think you could sit back in the saddle a touch more. But I also think it’s very very far from level on the horse’s back and that the flap is all wrong. I’m reserving judgment on the seat size until you sit in it just a little more (right now you are totally perched over it) but I think it likely could go up a size. I would venture that the main problem is that it’s not particularly level on the horse and it’s going to be hard for you to sit IN something that’s completely non-level. Do you NEED that thick half pad? Does the saddle sit more level on the horse’s back without it? Were your pads like that when you tacked up, or is the saddle “pad spitting?”[/QUOTE]

Emphasis mine. You are being thrown forward in this saddle because the saddle is pitched forward. Essentially you are actively having to fight the saddle just to stay balanced.

My favorite test is where you put a pen, pencil, etc. in the saddle and see where it rests naturally. This is where the center of the saddle is and it should rest at the lowest point of the saddle, from my understanding. If it’s towards the pommel, that means your center of gravity will be thrown forward. If it’s towards the cantle, that means you will be more behind the center and in a chair seat. I always put my saddle on a horse’s back and see if it’s balanced. If it is? Great. If not, I use half pads/shims/etc to then fix the balance. I always start with a naked back and go from there.

I can ride in my saddle (also one of these hoitey toitey french brand saddles) without stirrups, with a dressage length stirrup (I do dressage lessons in this saddle), with a hunter-flat length stirrup, and a 2’/3’/3’6" length in complete balance. I only jack up the stirrups between jump heights because my horse jumps different amongst those heights (read: harder), so I need them shorter so I can anchor my body better. I can sit my mom’s dressage horse’s extended trot IN MY HUNTER SADDLE (she can barely sit it in her dressage saddle). I can do no stirrup work (including posting trot/two point in trot).

I would not going to compromise at ALL when I’m paying $$$$ (and I stick to this; I returned a Devoucoux that did not fit!). If I was, I would have just bought an off-the-rack saddle.

I swear I read that you tried this saddle on a different horse when demo-ing. Horses have differences in backs; one saddle does not fit all and a half pad cannot always fix saddle problems. It could be that this horse you are riding is downhill and your demo’ed this saddle on an uphill horse. That really can make all the difference. That is why usually, you buy one saddle per horse you own.

[Ponyplusaninch]

[QUOTE=hj0519;7606187]
Depending on your definition of “normal” for a half pad, that could be providing just as much thickness as the Ogilvy and causing the same problem. Get a picture either with just a regular saddle pad or a Thinline, if you have to have the extra padding. You don’t necessarily have to have a half pad, especially if the problem is that all of the extra padding is messing with how the saddle fits the horse.[/QUOTE]

This entirely. I am a free-lance rider with the “have saddle, will travel” logo on my back, and I have a mattes pad that I will shim or unshim in front and in back according to the horse’s needs. The saddle (a county) is very standard medium tree, and it fits most horses. It’s only when I get on a narrow TB or a mammoth that I really have need to scrutinize the shimming (thickening) of the half pad.

When I examine how I fit my saddle to a horse, I do it without any kind of pad and look at how level or not level the saddle fits the horse as well as feeling along the inner flap for how the saddle rests on the horse’s sides.

I don’t know how knowledgable this rep is, but if you get a chance to work with a CERTIFIED saddle fitter, he/she can give you some good base-line knowledge on how to saddle a horse. It revolutionized my tacking up process.

The saddle I own was originally fitted for my first and second horses (who eerily had the same back, down to a weak right shoulder…), but after that, I had to learn–with the help of the fitter–how to best accommodate other mounts since I no longer had a regular horse. Will the fit be 100% accurate and perfect on all horses? No. But you can make it so that the saddle isn’t interfering with the horse’s way of going, and the saddle puts you in the most effective position on that particular horse.

Good luck to you… I’ve been following this thread with some interest (I have an impossible leg to fit off-the-rack, too).

[amnich123]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7606226]
I do not speak CWD flap language. LOL. :):)

Right now you’re tipped forward onto the pommel with a lot of space behing your butt between that and the cantle and you’re perched up on top of the saddle. I think if the saddle sat level, your center of gravity would place you more in the center of the saddle with more equal space from crotch to pommel and butt to cantle. I think it will then be the right seat size, although I’d like to see this to confirm.

When you can actually be in the center of the saddle, you should be able to sit properly instead of being pushed forward. That will naturally shift all of you back to the center, and along with it your leg. I then think you will find that the flap is just sort of an off shape for your leg confirmation. You have a nice long leg (lucky) but a lot of the length is knee to heel. I think when you’re sitting centered you could do with a longer, slightly straigher flap. I think your leg will be behind the padded part of the flap once you’re centered. The flap just looks to me to be the wrong shape for you. It’s probably not dreadful-- but it doesn’t seem perfect or what I’d expect from an allegedly “made just for you/to your measurements” “custom” saddle either.

Why do you NEED a half pad at all? Let’s see this saddle on the horse’s naked back, for starters.[/QUOTE]

I usually ride with a half pad because I’m afraid if the saddle doesn’t fit completely correct on the horse, if it’s bridging or perched one way or another that the pad will provide some comfort for the horse (if that makes sense… rather than having just the saddle on the horses back w/ a baby pad). That, and I’m always told to ride with one.

The barn I’m at has a bunch of half pads that everyone can use. They look something like these two. Theres a plain white one and the other is white with black wool. Might be one of these two.:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/wither-back-pad/p/X1-1905/?ids=bbsw34vmrii21emavl2umz4h

http://www.doversaddlery.com/half-pad/p/X1-19101/?ids=bbsw34vmrii21emavl2umz4h

I’m riding a horse today where my saddle was checked for fit by the barn manager on a bare back. There was a little bit of bridging but that was it, and it sat level on the horse back.

Also, when you refer to “the” horse, I’m likely never to see that horse again. He left for Fla last week.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=amnich123;7606389]
I usually ride with a half pad because I’m afraid if the saddle doesn’t fit completely correct on the horse, if it’s bridging or perched one way or another that the pad will provide some comfort for the horse (if that makes sense… rather than having just the saddle on the horses back w/ a baby pad). That, and I’m always told to ride with one.

The barn I’m at has a bunch of half pads that everyone can use. They look something like these two. Theres a plain white one and the other is white with black wool. Might be one of these two.:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/wither-back-pad/p/X1-1905/?ids=bbsw34vmrii21emavl2umz4h

http://www.doversaddlery.com/half-pad/p/X1-19101/?ids=bbsw34vmrii21emavl2umz4h

I’m riding a horse today where my saddle was checked for fit by the barn manager on a bare back. There was a little bit of bridging but that was it, and it sat level on the horse back.

Also, when you refer to “the” horse, I’m likely never to see that horse again. He left for Fla last week.[/QUOTE]

Does wearing more socks make you feel better in shoes that are too pointy in the toe? Have you ever heard a podiatrist tell someone with foot pain to just wear multiple layers of socks?! If your retainer is bent and doesn’t fit, does the dentist wad padding underneath it?

I don’t know what sense it makes for there to be a “must use a half pad, alaways” policy. No one has a saddle that actually fits at the barn? No one?! If you MUST use a half pad always, I’d suggest something very thin like a Thinline. But even that shouldn’t be necessary with a saddle that fits.

A little bit of bridging is not fitting. A little bit of bridging might be something you can shim and solve… but it’s like being a little bit pregnant. If the saddle moves, it doesn’t fit. Not to mention, if it first better by at least sitting level without all the half pads… why on earth would the barn require you to use one?!

And SHIMMING can help with fitting issue. Shoving more padding and more padding EVERYWHERE isn’t shimming. A good correction pad (with or without sheepskin) and some shims will give you lots of options. But just shoving a big thick pad under everything is a recipie for lots of saddles not fitting.

Honestly… if the rep AND 2 trainer saw that saddle sitting that way and NONE of them thought the fit to horse was part of the problem… you’re going to have to learn the basics of fitting for yourself because apparently you don’t have saddle knowledgeable people around you.

[hj0519]

If the half pad is thick enough that it’s making the saddle fit incorrectly, it will be doing the exact opposite of providing comfort the horse.

If it makes you feel better, get one of the Thinline pads to use - they’re thin enough that they won’t affect the fit like a puffy half pad would.

I know it’s hard when you don’t have your own horse, so you need to use what the owner/trainer wants, but stuffing too much padding under a saddle just because every horse in the barn goes in one isn’t going to help the horse.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=amnich123;7606389]
I usually ride with a half pad because I’m afraid if the saddle doesn’t fit completely correct on the horse, if it’s bridging or perched one way or another that the pad will provide some comfort for the horse (if that makes sense… rather than having just the saddle on the horses back w/ a baby pad). That, and I’m always told to ride with one.

The barn I’m at has a bunch of half pads that everyone can use. They look something like these two. Theres a plain white one and the other is white with black wool. Might be one of these two.:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/wither-back-pad/p/X1-1905/?ids=bbsw34vmrii21emavl2umz4h

http://www.doversaddlery.com/half-pad/p/X1-19101/?ids=bbsw34vmrii21emavl2umz4h

I’m riding a horse today where my saddle was checked for fit by the barn manager on a bare back. There was a little bit of bridging but that was it, and it sat level on the horse back.

Also, when you refer to “the” horse, I’m likely never to see that horse again. He left for Fla last week.[/QUOTE]

I’m afraid that many trainers – and some saddle reps – have no idea how to fit a saddle. I learned the hard way when my then trainer assured me that a particular saddle fit . . . and it wasn’t until I cliniced with a trainer who took the time to explain to me exactly why the saddle didn’t fit my horse that I started to understand the mechanics. I’ve spent many years working with a great fitter now and I have a pretty good eye for what works. I see a LOT of people riding in saddles that don’t fit their horses - some of whom end up with large vet bills trying to figure out why their horse’s back is so sore.

The knee-jerk reaction that you “must” ride with a half pad (and the ones you linked to are pretty thick) seems fairly common but has no basis in fact. A thick pad only adds comfort if the saddle is too wide. If it fits well, it will make it too narrow; if it’s already too narrow, it makes it very tight.

Keep in mind that there is more to saddle fit than just the width of the tree. The shape of the tree, the shape of the panels, all contribute to how the saddle sits on a particular horse’s back.

Honestly, it doesn’t sound like you are getting good, objective advice from anyone near you. Since you are in Massachusetts, I would suggest finding when Patty Barnett is coming up from Connecticut and asking her to evaluate the saddle fit on at least one of the horses that you are riding and also ask her how the saddle fits YOU. She is a fitter who doesn’t sell saddles so she can be objective.

In the meantime you might want to take photos and send them to Kitt Hazleton. Here is a post she wrote about what kind of photos you need to take in order to evaluate saddle fit long distance: http://saddlefitter.blogspot.com/2014/01/fitting-assessment-photos-and.html.

Jay McGary at Trumbull Mountain also does long distance fittings. Their instructions for photos are here: http://www.trumbullmtn.com/saddle-fitting/fitting-assessment-photos/

Both of them post on COTH.

[amnich123]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7606426]
Does wearing more socks make you feel better in shoes that are too pointy in the toe? Have you ever heard a podiatrist tell someone with foot pain to just wear multiple layers of socks?! If your retainer is bent and doesn’t fit, does the dentist wad padding underneath it?

I don’t know what sense it makes for there to be a “must use a half pad, alaways” policy. No one has a saddle that actually fits at the barn? No one?! If you MUST use a half pad always, I’d suggest something very thin like a Thinline. But even that shouldn’t be necessary with a saddle that fits.

A little bit of bridging is not fitting. A little bit of bridging might be something you can shim and solve… but it’s like being a little bit pregnant. If the saddle moves, it doesn’t fit. Not to mention, if it first better by at least sitting level without all the half pads… why on earth would the barn require you to use one?!

And SHIMMING can help with fitting issue. Shoving more padding and more padding EVERYWHERE isn’t shimming. A good correction pad (with or without sheepskin) and some shims will give you lots of options. But just shoving a big thick pad under everything is a recipie for lots of saddles not fitting.

Honestly… if the rep AND 2 trainer saw that saddle sitting that way and NONE of them thought the fit to horse was part of the problem… you’re going to have to learn the basics of fitting for yourself because apparently you don’t have saddle knowledgeable people around you.[/QUOTE]

You’re correct.
The rep didn’t see me on that horse. It was on another.

[amnich123]

[QUOTE=Bogie;7606470]
I’m afraid that many trainers – and some saddle reps – have no idea how to fit a saddle. I learned the hard way when my then trainer assured me that a particular saddle fit . . . and it wasn’t until I cliniced with a trainer who took the time to explain to me exactly why the saddle didn’t fit my horse that I started to understand the mechanics. I’ve spent many years working with a great fitter now and I have a pretty good eye for what works. I see a LOT of people riding in saddles that don’t fit their horses - some of whom end up with large vet bills trying to figure out why their horse’s back is so sore.

The knee-jerk reaction that you “must” ride with a half pad (and the ones you linked to are pretty thick) seems fairly common but has no basis in fact. A thick pad only adds comfort if the saddle is too wide. If it fits well, it will make it too narrow; if it’s already too narrow, it makes it very tight.

Keep in mind that there is more to saddle fit than just the width of the tree. The shape of the tree, the shape of the panels, all contribute to how the saddle sits on a particular horse’s back.

Honestly, it doesn’t sound like you are getting good, objective advice from anyone near you. Since you are in Massachusetts, I would suggest finding when Patty Barnett is coming up from Connecticut and asking her to evaluate the saddle fit on at least one of the horses that you are riding and also ask her how the saddle fits YOU. She is a fitter who doesn’t sell saddles so she can be objective.

In the meantime you might want to take photos and send them to Kitt Hazleton. Here is a post she wrote about what kind of photos you need to take in order to evaluate saddle fit long distance: http://saddlefitter.blogspot.com/2014/01/fitting-assessment-photos-and.html.

Jay McGary at Trumbull Mountain also does long distance fittings. Their instructions for photos are here: http://www.trumbullmtn.com/saddle-fitting/fitting-assessment-photos/

Both of them post on COTH.[/QUOTE]

I will look into this!

[jj90]

A bit late to the party, but I thought I’d share my experiences of trying CWD.

I am not sure if I missed it, but but was your saddle fitted to a specific horse or type of horse and now you are sitting on a horse that is a bit different, so the balance is now off?

When I tried the CWD, I went back and forth between two saddles. I had a hard time choosing between the two mostly because of the balance point. The panels on the one saddle fit my horse perfectly so I felt very balanced in it, even though it was a size too big in the seat and the flaps. The other saddle was the perfect flap and seat size for me, but the panel was built up a bit in the back for horses that are a bit more uphill than my horse and I found that it was pushing my balance too forward.

From quickly looking at your pictures and your description, I don’t think the fit is necessarily wrong for you, I think it might be wrong for your horse, which is causing your position problems.

Overall, my experience with CWD customer service was great. The rep helped me find a good fit for me and my horse - based on recommendations by an independent fitter.

[Bogie]

OP doesn’t have a horse. She is leasing and now has a different horse than when the saddle was fit.

[alto]

Like others, I suspect the seat size of the saddle is pretty darn perfect for you - get the saddle on a horse it fits & take new photos/video :yes:

If you’re going to use your saddle on a variety of horses, learn the basics of saddle fitting (the pictured horse was not having a good time with that CWD tipping like that either - if he still jumped forward, what a goooood boy! ).

Check your area for saddle fitting clinics, or even just find a local fitter & ask to be a sidekick for several demos/fittings.

Once you have an idea of the “how”, invest in a decent shim pad & a variety of shims (various foams & thicknesses).

[mvp]

[QUOTE=amnich123;7604623]

I do think that dropping my stirrups in an eq class will be a problem. I just posted these images to Tumblr, so you can see the saddle:

Picture #1:
http://bays-4-days.tumblr.com/post/87608564337

Picture #2:
http://bays-4-days.tumblr.com/post/87608657057

Picture #3:
http://bays-4-days.tumblr.com/post/87608705967[/QUOTE]

I know you didn’t ask for a riding and tacking up lesson, but really, the geometry of the saddle doesn’t look bad.

Here’s what I think is making it look bad and feel bad.

1. The very thick Ogilvy half pad. Look, the main reason I don’t own one is that I think they are thick enough to change saddle fit. It looks to me ilke yours is dumping the saddle down onto the pommel. Is that true? To tell, ride in it with the pad for a bit then hop off and take a picture. If it’s in the wrong place/wrong balance on you horse then, the saddle/pad combination doesn’t fit. So unless you had the saddle made to fit that horse with the thick half pad, you will most likely have a saddle that doesn’t sit in balance on the horse’s back… with the big pad.

2. If you relaxed your knees, your toe would end up where the stirrup is in that first picture.

3. If you relaxed your hip, you’d open up there too and sit up more vertical. So many riders (especially in dressage world), can’t stretch out the front of their hip. That makes them (or any of us), keep the hip angle pretty closed and stiff. IMO, you can’t evaluate saddle geometry with that riding problem in the way.

Take what you like and leave the rest!

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7606426]
Does wearing more socks make you feel better in shoes that are too pointy in the toe? Have you ever heard a podiatrist tell someone with foot pain to just wear multiple layers of socks?! If your retainer is bent and doesn’t fit, does the dentist wad padding underneath it?

I don’t know what sense it makes for there to be a “must use a half pad, alaways” policy. No one has a saddle that actually fits at the barn? No one?! If you MUST use a half pad always, I’d suggest something very thin like a Thinline. But even that shouldn’t be necessary with a saddle that fits.

A little bit of bridging is not fitting. A little bit of bridging might be something you can shim and solve… but it’s like being a little bit pregnant. If the saddle moves, it doesn’t fit. Not to mention, if it first better by at least sitting level without all the half pads… why on earth would the barn require you to use one?!

And SHIMMING can help with fitting issue. Shoving more padding and more padding EVERYWHERE isn’t shimming. A good correction pad (with or without sheepskin) and some shims will give you lots of options. But just shoving a big thick pad under everything is a recipie for lots of saddles not fitting.

Honestly… if the rep AND 2 trainer saw that saddle sitting that way and NONE of them thought the fit to horse was part of the problem… you’re going to have to learn the basics of fitting for yourself because apparently you don’t have saddle knowledgeable people around you.[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Calm down.

The OP is a teenager riding in a show barn. How many of those do we know that throws a pro panel saddle on everything with whatever half pad du jour is? They’ve been doing it since the beval wool pad days. Hell, we did it in the 80s when we just chucked a big square of foam under those tiny little Hermes saddles.

She doesn’t own the horse, and she’s riding ones that the barn manager has control over. If the barn manager says to use a half pad, a teenager is not going to mouth off that she knows more about saddle fit.

It just doesn’t happen that way and attacking the OP over it is pointless.

Similarly, asking Patty Barnett to come all the way to Cape Cod from Connecticut to do a fitting on a saddle she can do literally nothing to change (foam flocked, french) is going to be a waste of a lot of $$.

[amnich123]

[QUOTE=Bogie;7606558]
OP doesn’t have a horse. She is leasing and now has a different horse than when the saddle was fit.[/QUOTE]

I was leasing. Not leasing anymore since that horse left. The horse I am on in the pictures was just a sale horse which needed to be ridden while waiting for a trailer to Florida. I am trying different horses right now.

[amnich123]

Here is the saddle with the pad on the horse I’m riding today after I had ridden.

http://bays-4-days.tumblr.com/post/87711613407

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;7606709]
Seriously? Calm down.

The OP is a teenager riding in a show barn. How many of those do we know that throws a pro panel saddle on everything with whatever half pad du jour is? They’ve been doing it since the beval wool pad days. Hell, we did it in the 80s when we just chucked a big square of foam under those tiny little Hermes saddles.

She doesn’t own the horse, and she’s riding ones that the barn manager has control over. If the barn manager says to use a half pad, a teenager is not going to mouth off that she knows more about saddle fit.

It just doesn’t happen that way and attacking the OP over it is pointless.

Similarly, asking Patty Barnett to come all the way to Cape Cod from Connecticut to do a fitting on a saddle she can do literally nothing to change (foam flocked, french) is going to be a waste of a lot of $$.[/QUOTE]

Who is attacking the OP? I’ve been trying to help her?! What on earth suggests I am anything but calm?! Please point out where I told her to mouth off at anyone?! Or gotten at all hysterical?! I’ve spent time looking at her photos and making suggestions and generally trying to educate her. It’s about as far from an attack as it gets?!

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7606782]
Who is attacking the OP? I’ve been trying to help her?! What on earth suggests I am anything but calm?! Please point out where I told her to mouth off at anyone?! Or gotten at all hysterical?! I’ve spent time looking at her photos and making suggestions and generally trying to educate her. It’s about as far from an attack as it gets?![/QUOTE]

You’re asking her to do something not possible. You keep asking her to show you “THE” horse. There is no “THE” horse. It’s whoever’s on the lesson board for that day. Similarly, I can promise that if she asks the barn manager if it fits, and the barn manager says it does, and she goes around and says “no, it doesn’t, it needs shims here and here” she’s going to piss off the barn manager.

Hopefully the OP learned something in this whole ordeal. I’m not sure your condescending post helped, though.

[amnich123]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7606782]
Who is attacking the OP? I’ve been trying to help her?! What on earth suggests I am anything but calm?! Please point out where I told her to mouth off at anyone?! Or gotten at all hysterical?! I’ve spent time looking at her photos and making suggestions and generally trying to educate her. It’s about as far from an attack as it gets?![/QUOTE]

vxf111:
You’re not attacking me at all, you’ve been quite helpful.
Like any conversations online, words can be interpreted every which way.

soloudinhere:
I wouldn’t have Patty Barnett come down, I’d probably call her or email her and send pictures/videos if possible. No way would I pay to have someone come down to look at something which itself, cannot be changed. You make very good points in your first two paragraphs.