Cypress Arrow K9 Academy abuses dogs on video

[S1969]

That actually happened in my area about 10 years ago.

Snippets from the newspaper articles:

Railroad workers found two pups — one missing a paw, the other without its middle two toes — and then a third puppy, which had a hole in one of its paws and was unable to move. They believed they had been nailed to the tracks.

Eventually a man was charged with abandonment of a disabled animal, a misdemeanor charge. Police said that the “events were not as they appeared to be.” (So, he abandoned the puppies who were 3 weeks old, but maybe…possibly?? didn’t actually nail them to the tracks). Except that it seems hard to believe that it was anything else.

[Jenerationx]

I can’t imagine the cruel heart it would take to leave an animal on the tracks in any way.

[tikihorse]

Dear lord. Misdemeanor charges… !!!

[endlessclimb]

@S1969

There are other things that are not easy with R+ (e.g. compulsory retrieve/force fetch) that might look abusive to the average pet owner,

Well that’s because force breaking a dog is abusive. Inflicting actual pain on an animal in order to get them to do something is abuse.

Problem is most trialing/hunting guys want to rough their dogs up, and a dog who is roughed up is too scared to willingly retrieve.

The most accomplished Vizsla in NSTRA history is sitting on my couch, and she (and all of our other dogs) is not force broke, and has NEVER bungled a retrieve both hunting and trialing. This years Regional Winner is sitting next to me in her jail for her TPLO, and she too is not force broke - retreiving is her FAVORITE, she cant wait to bring something to you. Shes brough me cicadas, my underwear, you name it.

You have to start early, and you have to make it the most fun thing in the world to bring that bird (or dummy, or whatever) back. And, your dog can not be scared they’re going to get beaten for something when they’re within range of you.

Force breaking is not necessary. My shelter dog retrieves 100% and also was never force broke. Repetition, positivity, a dog who trusts you.

This is not a popular opinion in the hunting world, I am aware. We don’t use e-collars either. Success talks though - even when it makes the traditionalists mad.

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

Well that’s because force breaking a dog is abusive. Inflicting actual pain on an animal in order to get them to do something is abuse.

Force fetch does not have to inflict pain. It’s simply the use of negative reinforcement and does not have to be painful or abusive.

Of course, just like everything, trainer methods vary. And dogs vary. Some dogs get this pretty quickly and never need anything nearing abusive training. Good trainers use a lot of positive reinforcement with FF as well as negative reinforcement.

As for e-collars, there is nothing inherently abusive about them, either. My 3 run with them every single day - they are an extension of communication from me. I can zap them, but I don’t usually need to. But I use a beeper command all the time because they can hear it even if they are not next to me.

Last time I zapped one of my dogs we had run into a mother coyote and at least two of her pups (must be about 4 months old?) walking one morning last week. Two of my dogs returned quickly to me and the other refused. He knows the command, and he got stimmed until he started to turn back and recall. I think that was entirely appropriate use of a severe negative reinforcement because the alternative was a bloody dog fight.

[endlessclimb]

Agreed for the e-collar, they have their place (but not the one on the front of the neck, one on the back of the neck, and one on the belly type use, which is far too common), but we will disagree on the FF. I’ve never seen a dog that it didn’t ruin the enthusiasm for the retrieve on. Every dog you see has his tail down and looks scared when asked to hold, or hears the word fetch. Ours come full speed tails up, happy as clams.

[endlessclimb]

I will say though that the whole premise of FF is inflicting pain. Pick that up, or I will [ear pinch, toe hitch, something else that is painful]. The dog quickly learns that retrieving is not FUN. You can spot a force broken dog in the field a mile off - the expression is unmistakable. The flinch and panic (mild or major, it’s still fear) when they hear the word FETCH.

We want it to be FUN for the girls to bring anything back to us. We say fetch in the house and they’re looking for the closest thing to where you’re pointing to bring to you, and are SO excited to do it.

[S1969]

Well, again, I disagree to an extent - an ear pinch isn’t necessarily painful - it’s negative reinforcement. I think a lot of trainers train “fetch” R+ and then add the R- if necessary. But the bigger issue for most dogs who retrieve in competition isn’t that they won’t pick up a bird, it’s that they put it down before the retrieve is finished. So yes, the FF means retrieve until I tell you to give.

I know a lot of dogs (esp NAVHDA) who have gone through FF and did not show any lack of enthusiasm - especially the GSPs. My oldest dog (Brittany) probably would not have been a good candidate for it because he’s sensitive (as many Brittanys are) and also a perfectionist. My other two might have been fine.

Not all dogs are good candidates for all types of competition but are great hunters. NAVDHA is particularly strict and some aspects (e.g. duck drag/long retrieve) are much more about obedience than hunting.

[endlessclimb]

@S1969

it’s that they put it down before the retrieve is finished.

Right, but this is easy to fix with positive reinforcement. My shelter dog I switch between dropping the retrieve in front of me, and going to hand. Sounds stupid, but in the winter I don’t want to handle the slushy disgusting tennis ball so I ask her to drop it at my feet.

The only time it can get tricky is a dog shaking water off their coat on a water retrieve. But I think if the options are “the dog sets the bird down on this particular retrieve to alleviate some discomfort for himself” or “I’m going to force break this dog and potentially make him hate the activity all together” I know which one I’d pick. And I’d expect people to be more understanding of the dog as a partner, not a machine.

NSTRA is not NAVDHA, but there are still scores for obedience. There are individual scores for retrieves for every bird found.

I taught my shelter dog when she was over a year old all this stuff. She’s super SUPER soft and not food motivated. If I can teach her a reliable “take it”, “hold”, “fetch” at a year or better without any real structured training, I question whether FF is necessary at all. And, if it determined that it is (which I would sharply contest it is not, it’s more that the handler is not skilled or patient or even handed enough to make it happen), is this really a dog that needs to be passing on their genetics?

I’ve seen more dogs that were force broke sit there and EAT a bird out of reach of the handler because there was nothing in it for the dog to bring it to the human. I don’t know what you’ve seen, but I’ve seen more ego and rough-handling in dogs than I ever saw in horses. I don’t know any one who trains as soft as we do. Rough handling is just somehow “accepted.”

Tell you what it is for me - immediate DQ, get off my field.

[trubandloki]

@endlessclimb

Right, but this is easy to fix with positive reinforcement.

Like training anything, broad generalized statements really do not work.

Edit to add - do not pounce and say I am saying something I am not. I am not saying positive training will not work, I am simply saying that your broad statement is not necessarily always true.

[endlessclimb]

A dog that retrieves but does not finish is easy to fix. It’s one of the most common problems. It is a phase nearly every dog goes through.

Some take that as the cue that the dog needs force broke. I would say no, the dog needs more work on his finish.

[endlessclimb]

Back on topic - trainer lady caught red handed beating the snot out of the dogs is has an attorney now, and they’re saying that Cane Corsos can not be trained using positive methods.

Ok, I understand that some working breeds are TOUGH. But there’s a difference between a quick collar correction and this. A big, gigantic, chasm of a difference.

Then there’s a video of the trainer and her assistant gently hitting themselves in the leg with the whip saying “hardy har har, this thing doesn’t hurt!” Yeah, uh, us horse people know that thing absolutely can hurt, and that dog’s reaction in the video was that of pure unadulterated pain/panic response to being strung up like that and beaten.

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

NSTRA is not NAVDHA, but there are still scores for obedience. There are individual scores for retrieves for every bird found.

One of the NAVHDA scores is a blind long retrieve - the dog has to follow the scent of a dead duck which has been dragged until it is out of sight of the handler (I think 300’ minimum). The handler has to send the dog to track and retrieve the duck, and there is a judge watching out of sight of both handler and dog. So I think this is one of the tasks that is most difficult because it’s not at all interesting or exciting for the dog.

Retrieving from the shot and from the water are easier, but obviously the score depends on the dog retrieving all the way to the handler.

I really didn’t see a lot of rough handling but the GSPs are hard-headed, for sure. My dog did not need to be treated roughly to shut down, and we ended up working with another trainer because one of them was just too much for him. His praise was effusive, but his corrections were loud, and my dog did not respond to it.

[Jenerationx]

Exactly. Cane Corso is a powerful breed, but they are sensitive enough that a small correction is usually all that’s needed. I’m not a positive ONLY person, but I am a positive first, correction only when needed and only the pressure needed to overcome, and only when the dog understands and is blowing off the command. I didn’t even see a command for the Corso, just outright abuse. What the hell did they even want the dog to do?

[KBC]

To add some levity here, I read the title of the thread and my first thought was - why is someone looking for an abusive dog trainer? That is a strange thing to request.

You are not alone…but then I was the one stood in line at our little branch bank the other day pondering on th

“This ATM is not currently dispensing cash”

That explained the unusual line up, but couldn’t help wondering if it was dispensing something other than money!

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

I taught my shelter dog when she was over a year old all this stuff. She’s super SUPER soft and not food motivated. If I can teach her a reliable “take it”, “hold”, “fetch” at a year or better without any real structured training, I question whether FF is necessary at all.

Just back to this for a moment; I know someone with a multi-titled Brittany - very talented in many dog sports including agility, obedience and rally, with a GCH on top. She loved hunting but would not retrieve - wouldn’t pick up a bird. Her owner tried absolutely everything, and I mean every possible method of R+ and mild R-, and eventually sent her to a trainer and they did train FF in a pretty serious way. And then she got it, and quickly got her Senior and then Master Hunter titles. Not sure if she was just stubborn or truly didn’t understand. This is different from a dog who drops after retrieve, obviously, but for some reason she did not respond to R+.

[SuzieQNutter]

Reading this thread I now realise how lucky I was that the place we went to learn how to train our dogs did not use any abusive methods. I have never seen anyone abuse a dog. I found that video horrific and unnecessary.

[Jenerationx]

@KBC

To add some levity here, I read the title of the thread and my first thought was - why is someone looking for an abusive dog trainer? That is a strange thing to request.

LOL… yeah I should have worded it better. I was so distraught after watching the video. I have fixed the title to be more clear now.

[trubandloki]

Sharing an article I saw posted. It appears they were charged with felonies but insist they did nothing wrong.

Mother, daughter arrested after viral videos of alleged animal abuse at...

[endlessclimb]

I wonder what their grand plan is to get out of animal cruelty charges. Tossing the chocolate lab around is one thing (in the sense of a conviction) but beating that Cane Corso looks like it’s a clear cut case. I can’t even imagine what depravity is in their heads to land blows on a dog like that. Disgusting.

I feel the same way about protection work and the use of agitation tables. If you need to do that, you have the wrong dog for the job.