Often I am getting the impression from warmblood breeders that a dam line is either good or bad and not much can happen to change that.
However in the Thoroughbred breed I have noticed a number of times that a lacklustre damline turned into dynamite.
Are dam lines more sturdy than sire lines with regard to change and in how far can good turn into bad and bad into good?
I am posting this here after coming across this link:
But also after reading the Seattle Slew topic under “racing” on this forum.
Please let’s not turn this topic into a TB against warmblood topic! I am only thinking that what can happen within the TB breed could also happen with warmbloods.
I agree…some dam lines haven’t produced because they haven’t had dedicated breeders focus on building that family. If a dam line is in the hand of really good and talented breeders who are committed to making that a stronger family through breeding smart and getting those horses in the hands of top riders that line will get much better. That is assuming of course they continue to keep the best fillies.
As it often said, breeding is not an exact science. It is about stacking the odds. That is true that a dameline may not have produced well because it never add the chance. If you try to build your programm on such an unproven dameline, it is like a shot in the dark. But if you have an exceptional individual from an unproven dameline, that the line seems to have produced nothing spectacular but you have a realy good feeling about it, you can try for sure, but you are taking more risk than if you were to breed with a proven dameline.
I’m not sure where you read that TB damlines are not as important or whatever. However, if you look at any sale catalog for Thoroughbreds, you will see the entire page is dedicated to the damlines. The Thoroughbred breeders have valued the damlines much longer than at least the American sporthorse breeders have. The value of a prospect is very dependent on the damline. I don’t think there are many mares that produce well with the evidence of good dams behind them. It is still a matter of choosing the right stallion, however.
PennyG
Thank you for the link! I read all five articles.
This concept applies to all breeds. As I read the above articles, a cascade or names of Arab mares (the breed I know most about) buzzed through my brain.
This may explain, in the Holstein breed at least, why the TB F1 cross does not have the Holstein jump, which can come back in the F2 if crossed right (with another or the same Holstein dam line.)
It might be interesting if Holstein breeders looked into the pedigrees of St. Fagan xx (Ethelbert’s sire), Ladykiller xx, Cottage Son xx and Rantzau xx (Cor de la Bryere’s sire) and Son-in-Law xx then looked for current TB colts with a similar pattern of breeding in the dam lines. Maybe, just maybe there are still TBs out there who would not “kill” the Holstein jump in the F1 generation.
I know that dam lines are very important to TB breeders, I did not say they are not.
However I have read a number of times about a mediocre TB damline that changed into a very good one.
Of course the dam line can change, with contributions from the sires.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106378]
Of course the dam line can change, with contributions from the sires.[/QUOTE]
The quality of a dameline is evaluated taking into account the quality of the horses it produces over many generations. You will generaly differentiate a good dameline from a weaker dameline by the quality of foals produced over the years from stallions of comparable quality.
If we go back in time, 40 or 50 years ago, breeding was realy regional, and breeders of a region would breed with pretty much the same group of stallions available localy. From there, they could compare the products and notice that the products from specific dameline were generaly above or below the norm. NOwadays, things are different, and the very best stallions are generally still available to all breeders. Even with that change, it is clear that some damelines produce great horses much more frequently than other.
So the good and the not so good dames generally have the opportunity to get crossed with the same quality of stallions, but with a great difference as to the quality of the products, and the frequency at which the line produces those superior horses. And those results can be evaluated over many generations. This being said, from experience, both my own and the experience of generations of breeders from all over the world, it would be a mistake to think you can create a great dameline with a not so good one by adding good stallions on top. Of course the quality should improve over the generation, but the products of each stallion in that line will generally be lesser than his products in the good dames.
It is totaly impossible that an exceptionnal individual arise from a bad dame line? No. It impossible that this exceptionnal individual, for whatever reason that this exceptional inidivdual transmits its qualities and begin its own great dameline? No. But it is, at best, very less likely than from the equivalent horse from a great dameline.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8106424]
The quality of a dameline is evaluated taking into account the quality of the horses it produces over many generations. You will generaly differentiate a good dameline from a weaker dameline by the quality of foals produced over the years from stallions of comparable quality.
If we go back in time, 40 or 50 years ago, breeding was realy regional, and breeders of a region would breed with pretty much the same group of stallions available localy. From there, they could compare the products and notice that the products from specific dameline were generaly above or below the norm. NOwadays, things are different, and the very best stallions are generally still available to all breeders. Even with that change, it is clear that some damelines produce great horses much more frequently than other.
So the good and the not so good dames generally have the opportunity to get crossed with the same quality of stallions, but with a great difference as to the quality of the products, and the frequency at which the line produces those superior horses. And those results can be evaluated over many generations. This being said, from experience, both my own and the experience of generations of breeders from all over the world, it would be a mistake to think you can create a great dameline with a not so good one by adding good stallions on top. Of course the quality should improve over the generation, but the products of each stallion in that line will generally be lesser than his products in the good dames.
It is totaly impossible that an exceptionnal individual arise from a bad dame line? No. It impossible that this exceptionnal individual, for whatever reason that this exceptional inidivdual transmits its qualities and begin its own great dameline? No. But it is, at best, very less likely than from the equivalent horse from a great dameline.[/QUOTE]
All of this has little to do with what I posted.
Mediocre dam lines can be changed into good dam lines with systematic breeding. It’s been shown to work in TBs, so that would be the case with warmbloods too. I’m not suggesting that anyone follow that breeding practice. Why wouldn’t you start with the very best mare you can find? But this idea that dam lines are constant and unwavering is not true. The best dam lines get the best stallions, consistently. Other dam lines often do not. That’s why they stay mediocre.
The best dam lines get the best stallions, consistently. Other dam lines often do not.
Although this might be true with the TB, which honnestly I am not very familliar with, it would be mostly due, in my opinion, to the important variation in the breeding fees of the top stallions, which can be 20 to 100 times the price of the average stallion. This reality is not the same in sport horse breeding. With some realy rare exceptions, such as Hickstead after his death, or the “pre cloning era” last doses of Quidam, the difference between the very best stallions and the not so famous one are not that major. Put aside Totilas, who at some point was 8 800 euros, BIg Star at 5 500 USD and maybe some other in that range, 95% of the warmblood stallions are probably withing the range of 650 euros to 2500 euros a dose. It is no longer accurate, i think, to say that the very best stallions only get the very best mares.
This would happen only in some exceptions, like the big 3 holsteiners, stallions of a lesser fertility such as Cornado or the aging exceptionnal stallions like Corrado, which are so in demand that they cannot produce enough for the demand, or that the registries want to limit their recurrence in the population. Then a selection process may be implimented. But these occurences are minimal, and many stallions of comparable quality remain available to the breeders.
This being said, and keeping in mind that the best damelines keep on improving at the same rythm as the not so good one, I remain of the opinion that, although your average dameline will improve, it is highly unlikely it would become a great one. This has been done a lot by the way. If you shop, you will find tones of average horses with a list of 4 GP sires in the pedigree, but no bottom line.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8106489]
Although this might be true with the TB, which honnestly I am not very familliar with, it would be mostly due, in my opinion, to the important variation in the breeding fees of the top stallions, which can be 20 to 100 times the price of the average stallion. This reality is not the same in sport horse breeding. With some realy rare exceptions, such as Hickstead after his death, or the “pre cloning era” last doses of Quidam, the difference between the very best stallions and the not so famous one are not that major. Put aside Totilas, who at some point was 8 800 euros, BIg Star at 5 500 USD and maybe some other in that range, 95% of the warmblood stallions are probably withing the range of 650 euros to 2500 euros a dose. It is no longer accurate, i think, to say that the very best stallions only get the very best mares.
This would happen only in some exceptions, like the big 3 holsteiners, stallions of a lesser fertility such as Cornado or the aging exceptionnal stallions like Corrado, which are so in demand that they cannot produce enough for the demand, or that the registries want to limit their recurrence in the population. Then a selection process may be implimented. But these occurences are minimal, and many stallions of comparable quality remain available to the breeders.
This being said, and keeping in mind that the best damelines keep on improving at the same rythm as the not so good one, I remain of the opinion that, although your average dameline will improve, it is highly unlikely it would become a great one. This has been done a lot by the way. If you shop, you will find tones of average horses with a list of 4 GP sires in the pedigree, but no bottom line.[/QUOTE]
Horses from top producing mares are more likely to end up in the right hands. Besides, not everyone is breeding for a top jumper, or a top horse may not suit their mares.
I have seen Hickstead’s dam line criticized on here. To me it looks like it improved through the generations: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/1050
Btw, top runners often do not come from the highest priced stallions. Or those stallions may not be very expensive at first. http://www.drf.com/news/kentucky-derby-effect-winning-sires-see-stud-fees-spike
Dam lines can go from “bad” to good …all that really needs to happen is for a breeder to believe in one mare and to build that family. I think this is especially more common in NA where we see breeders using a race bred TB as a foundation mare. Chances are a NA bred TB mare does not have family that is successful in dressage/jumping simply because they haven’t been used by sport breeders. Circumstances.
I bought a half TB mare a few years ago ( by an approved but “nobody” sire)…so yeah, her dam line is bad if you look at it from a sport perspective. But she was super to ride and is an incredible mover so I took a chance on her as a broodie (her sire is a nobody too). Her first foal is the best moving foal I have ever bred and I think will make a very special dressage horse. Ok, it is still early but she is my little experiment in trying to start my own mare line. There is something really fun and interesting in doing so, I think.
For sure a good mare family is absolutely huge, and I am not trying to take anything away from the value it has, but I think the smart breeder will take circumstances into consideration and look at the mare that is standing in front of them as well.
Just look at Viti. She was a trotter who happened to be able to jump and look at her descendants. That’s an incredible dynasty.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106676]
Just look at Viti. She was a trotter who happened to be able to jump and look at her descendants. That’s an incredible dynasty.[/QUOTE]
Viti produced Galoubet. He add a great descendance. But as a dameline, it did not evolved into anything spectacular, although at each generation, great stallions were used. I think it is a great example of the point I have made. A great horse was produced, but it never follow through the promises in the dameline in the following generations.
Also, Viti was borne in 1965. That dameline had every opportunity to develop well. Many of todays very best damelines were unknown in 1965. They develpped ever since.
You must also keep in mind that she was a Trotteur Français, not a Standardbred. The roots of the Trotteur Français are in the Normand horse, so very close from the SF. It is not realy a surprise that some of those trotteurs add a good impact on SF breeding back in the days.
Statistics people, need some help with a thought which might quantify something.
If jumping ability is 40% heritable, and two horses who have in the past produced jumpers, what are the odds that their next foal will also be a jumper?
If the Hanoverian study has, in fact, identified a jump gene that is present in most horses, but is homozygous in most Holsteiner sires, what does that say about mare lines? They did not study mare lines.
I find it interesting when a not spectacular mare produces a great sporthorse that is also a great breeding horse–it seems counter intuitive-- Galoubet was both a great performance horse and breeding stallion Carentino i “thought” was out of a so-so conformed mare (and a family that did not have a slew of heavy hitters???) and he was great sporthorse and a great breeding horses and he has made a son that is both.
(Is this a picture of Carentino’s dam?? http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=453719&time=1398441451 For some reason I thought she had scored low–but maybe I misremember ? She looks mighty pretty to me. )
[QUOTE=Cumano;8106710]
Viti produced Galoubet. He add a great descendance. But as a dameline, it did not evolved into anything spectacular, although at each generation, great stallions were used. I think it is a great example of the point I have made. A great horse was produced, but it never follow through the promises in the dameline in the following generations.
Also, Viti was borne in 1965. That dameline had every opportunity to develop well. Many of todays very best damelines were unknown in 1965. They develpped ever since.
You must also keep in mind that she was a Trotteur Français, not a Standardbred. The roots of the Trotteur Français are in the Normand horse, so very close from the SF. It is not realy a surprise that some of those trotteurs add a good impact on SF breeding back in the days.[/QUOTE]
No, actually, it is a great example of the point I made. :lol: You have to include Galoubet’s daughters in that dam line. It would be incorrect to say that Galoubet’s dam line has not been successful.
So is the point about most of the best dam lines being unknown in 1965, and how they have developed since then. Thank you.
I know what Viti was. That’s why I said trotter and not Standardbred. Standardbreds were developed here.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106874]
No, actually, it is a great example of the point I made. :lol: You have to include Galoubet’s daughters in that dam line.
So is the point about most of the best dam lines being unknown in 1965, and how they have developed since then.
I know what Viti was. That’s why I said trotter and not Standardbred. Standardbreds were developed here.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I see where our opinions diverge. It is simply because you have no idea what a dameline is. When breeders refer to the dameline, it is the successives generation of dames in the pedigree. So the dame, the grad dame, the great grand dame etc.
For example, lets take one of the very best dameline of the moment, the Kerly Line of Stal de Muze. Lamaze’s Narcotique de Muze was by Darco X Qerly Chin (by Chin Chin) X Kerly (by Pachat II). Narcotique’s dameline is Qerly Chin X Kerly. She is therefore from the Kerly dameline, or the Qerly Chin dameline. She is not from the dameline of Darco, or Chin Chin, or the dameline of Chin Chin’s mother.
And your other point goes back to my very first post. There are dameline that are no good, and damelines that were simply not developped. If a specific dameline have produced a lot in quantity, but not in quality, I believe you have a pretty good picture of the quality of that line. You can put the very best stallions on that line, chances are that the result will be below the standard of products for that stallion. Hence you can improve the dame line, but very rarely create a good one from a bad one.
If a dameline simply have very few products, and some good, some not so good, their might be a chance that it simply was unknown. You can breed with it wisely, and if you are lucky, it will become a great dameline. BUt in my opinion, their was quality genetic from the very begining. This would be, in my opinion, the case for the mare used as an example by Donella if that line ends up producing quality with sufficient regularity. Now if you realy believe in your line, I am sure it can be a lot of fun trying to develop it. But it would be important to remain realistic when evaluating your products. As I stated previously, it remains a shot in the dark that can go either way.
I also think that the breeding have evolved so much in the last decades, and the standard for the best horses being so high, that it will become more and more difficult for unknown lines to catch up with the lines that were purpously developped over generations and generations.
[QUOTE=Cumano;8106897]
It is simply because you [GAP] have no idea what a dameline is. When breeders refer to the dameline, it is the successives generation of dames in the pedigree. So the dame, the grad dame, the great grand dame etc.[/QUOTE]
^This. There are no stallions in the dam line.
One DOESN’T include Galoubet’s daughters in his dam line BY DEFINITION because his daughters are his and not his dam’s. Galoubet, as a stallion, would be contributing to other dam lines, not his own (UNLESS he was bred back to his mother or his mother’s mother or his mother’s daughters, etc.)
