Dam lines

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8106897]
Ok, I see where our opinions diverge. It is simply because you have no idea what a dameline is. When breeders refer to the dameline, it is the successives generation of dames in the pedigree. So the dame, the grad dame, the great grand dame etc.

For example, lets take one of the very best dameline of the moment, the Kerly Line of Stal de Muze. Lamaze’s Narcotique de Muze was by Darco X Qerly Chin (by Chin Chin) X Kerly (by Pachat II). Narcotique’s dameline is Qerly Chin X Kerly. She is therefore from the Kerly dameline, or the Qerly Chin dameline. She is not from the dameline of Darco, or Chin Chin, or the dameline of Chin Chin’s mother.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know what a damline is. Not sure what a dameline is though. Is that how it’s referred to in Germany? Is it even possible for you to write a post without being condescending and often inaccurate? It would seem not.

You know, when you only consider the very bottom of a pedigree, you’re leaving a whole lot out. Viti’s most successful offspring was a stallion, who in turn produced a huge number of successful horses. That line is still hugely successful today. Without Viti it never would have existed.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8106905]
And your other point goes back to my very first post. There are dameline that are no good, and damelines that were simply not developped. If a specific dameline have produced a lot in quantity, but not in quality, I believe you have a pretty good picture of the quality of that line. You can put the very best stallions on that line, chances are that the result will be below the standard of products for that stallion. Hence you can improve the dame line, but very rarely create a good one from a bad one.

If a dameline simply have very few products, and some good, some not so good, their might be a chance that it simply was unknown. You can breed with it wisely, and if you are lucky, it will become a great dameline. BUt in my opinion, their was quality genetic from the very begining. This would be, in my opinion, the case for the mare used as an example by Donella if that line ends up producing quality with sufficient regularity. Now if you realy believe in your line, I am sure it can be a lot of fun trying to develop it. But it would be important to remain realistic when evaluating your products. As I stated previously, it remains a shot in the dark that can go either way.

I also think that the breeding have evolved so much in the last decades, and the standard for the best horses being so high, that it will become more and more difficult for unknown lines to catch up with the lines that were purpously developped over generations and generations.[/QUOTE]

i think posters would take your word that much more seriously if you used dam-line and not dameline. just a heads up.

[out_west]

A question for breeding experts. How often do you see breeders doubling up on a damline? We often see this with stallions (for a dressage example, many horses have Donnerhall appearing several times in their pedigree). I own a mare from (I have been told) an excellent KWPN damline. Her damsire also comes from the same damline. Is this common?

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106922]
Yes, I know what a damline is. Is it even possible for you to write a post without being inaccurate and condescending? It would seem not.[/QUOTE]

I would invite you to read back all my posts here. Not even one time have I been condescending, except maybe that little one. But I still took the time to explain you what a dameline is. Now my explanation is not an opinion, it is realy what a dameline means for breeders. This could prevent you for looking silly when discussing with breeders. You can diverge of opinion with me, but at least on a post on damelines, talk about damelines!

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8106928]
i think posters would take your word that much more seriously if you used dam-line and not dameline. just a heads up.[/QUOTE]

Great catch, english is not my first language. This being said, on the substantive level, is their anything you consider not serious about the points I made?

[_Tradewind]

GAP, why can’t you just accept that there are some things you don’t know, and actually make an effort to learn from some of the knowledgeable breeders on this forum??

As others have said, it is incorrect to state that Galoubet’s daughters contributed to his mother’s damline. Only her daughters would have perpetuated her damline.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8106935]
I would invite you to read back all my posts here. Not even one time have I been condescending, except maybe that little one. But I still took the time to explain you what a dameline is. Now my explanation is not an opinion, it is realy what a dameline means for breeders. This could prevent you for looking silly when discussing with breeders. You can diverge of opinion with me, but at least on a post on damelines, talk about damelines![/QUOTE]

Thanks for the laugh. :lol:

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;8106952]
GAP, why can’t you just accept that there are some things you don’t know, and actually make an effort to learn from some of the knowledgeable breeders on this forum??

As others have said, it is incorrect to state that Galoubet’s daughters contributed to his mother’s damline. Only her daughters would have perpetuated her damline.[/QUOTE]

Because it’s ridiculous to point to the Viti damline and insinuate that her line was not successful in breeding. Is the fact that her most successful offspring was a stallion isn’t supposed to count somehow?

Sorry, but I don’t think I’m going to add to my genetics knowledge reading here. There’s too much goofy stuff posted.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106958]
Because it’s ridiculous to point to the Viti damline and say that she wasn’t successful in breeding. Is the fact that her most successful offspring was a stallion isn’t supposed to count somehow?

Sorry, but I don’t think I’m going to add to my genetics knowledge reading here. There’s too much goofy stuff posted.[/QUOTE]

What makes the quality of a dame line is not only the quality of the very best product of that line, but the regularity with which the dame line has produced good horses over the generations. Regarding Vity, to the best of my knowledge, since she was in age to breed, so let say 1968, no other significant production has resulted from that line. Galoubet was born in 1972.

If i have to decide wether I want to build a breeding program on that line, I would have to conclude that her, and her femal decendants, are not producing outstanding quality regularly. The job of a breeder is not to get blinded by one spectacular exception, and be able to assess each horse, or line, on the information he can gatter.

If Galoubet, instead of being born in 1972, was born in 2002. Now the situation would have been different as their would have not been 30 years since the last good product of the line. As an example, I would use Liscalgot. She was a super horse, from a rather unknown dameline. But the mare in herself was so exceptionnal, and the qualities she showed were so obvious, that Luc Henry felt she worth a shot at breeding. Since he acquired her, he has bred exstansively, and the product seem to show promises. She will probably be the foundation of a great line. However, she could have been a fluke, never produce the quality she showed in the ring, and her line would have died with her.

[Donella]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106958]
Because it’s ridiculous to point to the Viti damline and insinuate that her line was not successful in breeding. Is the fact that her most successful offspring was a stallion isn’t supposed to count somehow?

Sorry, but I don’t think I’m going to add to my genetics knowledge reading here. There’s too much goofy stuff posted.[/QUOTE]

In horse breeding the dam line (stamm, mother line etc) is a word that makes reference to the very bottom maternal lineage and the production record of only those mares and their female offspring. A stallion’s offspring belong to the mareline of the mare he is bred to, not the mare line of the stallion himself ie Galoubet’s offspring are not from the same motherline as Viti! The way you are talking makes it clear you don’t understand the definition of “dam line” as it is conventionally used by breeders so not sure why you think everyone else is being “goofy”?

[grayarabpony]

Viti didn’t just produce Galoubet, she produced several stallion sons. Galoubet was very successful and himself produced many fine stallions and mares. That’s hardly a fluke.

This horse is tail female to Viti: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10517901

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Donella;8106992]
In horse breeding the dam line (stamm, mother line etc) is a word that makes reference to the very bottom maternal lineage and the production record of only those mares and their female offspring. A stallion’s offspring belong to the mareline of the mare he is bred to, not the mare line of the stallion himself. The way you are talking makes it clear you don’t understand the definition of “dam line” as it is conventionally used by breeders.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think you get my point.

Stamms are a way of keeping track of horses. Often I see it discussed here as though it is all-important, when it is only a small part of the horse’s lineage. The only thing that stays constant in the damline is mDNA.

[Donella]

My point is that if you are going to argue something at least understand the basics of the topic. Don’t insult other people because you are ignorant on the topic you are discussing.

[grayarabpony]

And my point is at least understand the importance of the very bottom of the pedigree in relation to everything else. That’s basic genetics.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8107021]
And my point is at least understand the importance of the very bottom of the pedigree in relation to everything else. That’s basic genetics.[/QUOTE]

You state that as evidence, even implying that not agreeing with you is ignorance and goofy stuff. Just realize that although you are totaly entitled to have your own opinion, it goes specificaly against the opinion of almost every single influencial breeder of the past 50 years. Experience has showed that, with similar stallions, the very best horses come, in vast majority, from the very best dame lines. This is why fillies and mares from those lines are so difficult to buy and so expensive. Probably it makes no sense for you as you look at how many horses appears on the top of a mares pedigree, but the facts remain. Do I have a scientific explanation for you? No. Is their one that exist out there, maybe. Maybe it is because some lines are better at passing there genes to their offspring, maybe it is because some genes are generaly passed by the dame.

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8107021]
And my point is at least understand the importance of the very bottom of the pedigree in relation to everything else. That’s basic genetics.[/QUOTE]

Then make that point. Perhaps there is some merit to that, but that is a SEPARATE point from the one you are arguing: arguing the value of damlines is not the same as arguing whether or not a particular damline is successful.

[out_west]

Breeding is so much more then just the chromosomes/genes. (This coming from a Ph.D in genetics :lol:). There clearly is an art to it as well, as many top breeders have demonstrated. The understanding and importance of the damline seems to be part of the art. I would love to understand the science of WHY the damline is important, but I will trust generations of successful breeders that it is so.

[JB]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106998]
I don’t think you get my point.

Stamms are a way of keeping track of horses. Often I see it discussed here as though it is all-important, when it is only a small part of the horse’s lineage. The only thing that stays constant in the damline is mDNA.[/QUOTE]

But it’s that constant/consistent mDNA which is what makes the damline, which I think is what everyone has been trying to say. That IS the damline. That same mDNA passed from mare to dtr to dtr.

That’s different from saying a line, in general, is successful, because that tends to be talking about the stallion line - the W line, the R line, etc.

That’s different from saying Stallion X comes from Damline Y (his dam). His dtrs though are not from that damline because he does not have his dam’s mDNA, and he’s bred to mares of a different mDNA dam line. His dtrs now belong to their dam’s damline, not his. He’s the end of the road for that particular segment in terms of his dam’s damline.

[grayarabpony]

There’s a lot more to a horse than mDNA, JB. I can see it being very important to running but jumping and dressage, not as much.

The mDNA of many show jumpers comes from plow and carriage horses. Plowing and pulling a carriage is work, yes, but they are not feats of athleticism.

My horse, who has his mother’s mDNA, does not possess the same endurance that she had.

[JB]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8107087]
There’s a lot more to a horse than mDNA, JB. I can see it being very important to running but jumping and dressage, not as much.[/QUOTE]
Oh of course, no disputing that That’s why some people prefer to breed to a new son instead of a proven stallion, because they love what the son’s dam has brought to the equation. The only point is a “damline” really means “all the same mDNA”, which means it’s this mare’s mother and her mother and her mother and her mother and so on, back to the beginning of time. That is the damline. Stallions are not part of the picture as they don’t have mDNA.

It’s about that part of the genetics, not about the rest of the genetics.

The mDNA of many show jumpers comes from plow and carriage horses. Work, yes, but not feats of athleticism.

Of course Many mares from a variety of breeds have contributed. Not all those mares continued a mare line in the breeding population, either because they never produced fillies, or none of those lived to breeding age or because her dtrs were not bred. But at some point one of those carriage mares might have an unbroken line to a modern mare, and that line is, technically, the damline of Carriage Horse X.

mDNA is not remotely all there is to the performance abilities of a horse. Stallions absolutely bring a lot to the table.

They are simply different things. The damline is what it is - unbroken trail of mares. It’s not a Boys Club

If you have Mare B from Damline B, and bred her to 4 different stallions and it results in 4 fillies, those fillies are still from Damline B regardless of 4 different stallions. They will all have 4 different sets of genetics to bring to the table, but they are still all Damline B mares.

Breed all 4 to the same stallion and get 2 fillies and 2 colts. They’re still all from Damline B, they all have 4 different sets of genetics. Those colts may go on to be great producers but not a single one of those offspring are of Damline B because they no longer have Damline B’s mDNA. Damline B still gets the recognition for having produced those 2 colts, but they are no longer producers of that damline.