Stallions are not part of the picture as they don’t have mDNA.
Just a brief correction, they do have mDNA. It is their dam’s mDNA.
I’m certain JB meant to write contribute, not have.
That was actually my bad. I did know the sons have the mDNA but cannot pass it, but for whatever reason I forgot that when typing out the last few posts. So, all my “son doesn’t have it” comments really should have been “doesn’t contribute it”.
Thanks for the correction 
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;8106998]
I don’t think you get my point.
Stamms are a way of keeping track of horses. Often I see it discussed here as though it is all-important, when it is only a small part of the horse’s lineage. The only thing that stays constant in the damline is mDNA.[/QUOTE]
No…stamms are a way of keeping track of female horses and what they produce.
Stallions do have MtDNA, but it comes from their mothers, and they can’t pass it on. Fillies have MtDNA which comes from their mothers, and they pass it on to their foals.
It’s my understanding that science is doing a great deal of MtDNA classification studies in equines. Although I’m not certain whether WB breeding countries are doing this science for their mare line, I know that it’s been going on at a great pace for Arabians and Thoroughbred and quite a few other horse types.
It’s also my understanding that the vast majority of equine MtDNA haplotypes/haplogroups are not exclusive to any particular breed, although certain ones may not be present or the quantity of a particular haplotype may be higher or lower in a particular area or breed type.
It’s too bad the Hannoverians, KWPN, and Holsteiners aren’t doing much of this kind of study, because the results would undoubtedly be just as enlightening as the Hannoverian study of jumping sire genetics was.
just a note:
Stallions inherit their X gene from their dams (Y from their sire). They directly pass that to their daughters… hence a ‘broodmare sire’ whose daughters are ‘better’ than his sons often looks back to his dam for the differential factor.
No, not tail female /damline at all, but a sire’s dam can be rather important.
In some other livestock, doubling up the tail female (same for sire and dam) is thought to depress vigor… and may help explain why those designated as half-sibs are out of the same dam, while ‘by the same sire’ isn’t considered as incestuous. Breeding a daughter back to her sire can turn out better than a son to dam mating, or so the theory goes.
Link to the Han study, please?
‘Jumping’ is a very broad umbrella of many physical and mental aspects an individual horse displays; most of them not as easily measurable as ‘loin eye’ or ‘tenderness’ in meat animals, for example (and which have been shown to have multiple genes infuencing them).
I am curious as to the 40% heritability claim, which is VERY high and looking for the measurable data.
Thanks
Here’s the summary of the Hanoverian study.
http://www.hanoverian.com/ludwigherit.html
You could contact the author, Dr. Christmann at the Verband, for more information.
A very kind COTHer sent it to me, and I’ve saved it. It’s a “A genome-wide association study for quantitative trait loci of show-jumping in Hanoverian warmblood horses” by Schroeder et al from Animal Genetics 2011.
The title is somewhat misleading because they tested Hanoverian approved, non- Hanoverian sires as well as those with HAN brands. Also the test population was limited to stallions, IIRC.
If anyone wants it, I’ll be happy to pass it along. Just PM me your email address.
[QUOTE=out west;8107066]
Breeding is so much more then just the chromosomes/genes. (This coming from a Ph.D in genetics :lol:). There clearly is an art to it as well, as many top breeders have demonstrated. The understanding and importance of the damline seems to be part of the art. I would love to understand the science of WHY the damline is important, but I will trust generations of successful breeders that it is so.[/QUOTE]
I wondered too when I first heard it.
My theory- Schrodinger’s Mare. Much like the cat, it is the observer’s knowledge that changes the outcome. A stallion can produce enough offspring in a season to understand what he “throws”. It may take a couple of years to understand how it translates to under saddle but the information is there and even if he gets the wrong mares, he may also get the “right” ones too, to prove him.
While a mare has very limited offspring and each breeding choice will determine her success (or not) as a broodmare. The knowledge of her dam line may be much of the reason for her success in breeding, (along with her genetics).
Plus, a working knowledge of the dam line will help the breeder make the right choice for continuing to strengthen it for the next generation.
I think, that if you took an outstanding mare from a great dam line and gave it to a breeder without knowledge of the line, you would not continue to produce the same quality as a person that understood the line. I get why the Holsteiner breeders hoard their mares.
My three year old is out of the same dam line as an older horse that is competing in eventing at two star level. Does this say anything about my horse? I don’t know. Time will tell but I think that other horse does not look at all like my horse. My horse looks very much like his sire.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1719267
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1592154
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/1592160
https://www.google.com/search?q=“DHI+PAPARAZZI”+woodhead&hl=en&gbv=2&tbm=isch&oq=&gs_l=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=11038674&z=boeCjX
This is a half sister of my horse:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmWC2VDDOyM
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10550309 To my eye she looks quite a lot like her dam but is heavier because of her heavier type sire.
This is a full sister to my horse and she also seems to look more like her sire than her dam:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=11063325
From the same dam line comes a horse named Crown Bowler who can be found in the pedigree of this mare: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1583862 I know this is not the dam line and so this does not count but there might be a bit of influence.
Even less can be expected in this case where the horse is a son of a sire who was from my horse’s dam line.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8107927]
I think, that if you took an outstanding mare from a great dam line and gave it to a breeder without knowledge of the line, you would not continue to produce the same quality as a person that understood the line. I get why the Holsteiner breeders hoard their mares.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, maybe not.
But if you take a mare from a great dam line and a mare from a not-so-great dam line and give them to the same breeder without knowledge of either line, the progeny from mare from the great dam line as a whole will be superior to the progeny from the other mare as a whole. Individual offspring may be better or worse, but there will be a difference overall.
[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8108128]
Maybe, maybe not.
But if you take a mare from a great dam line and a mare from a not-so-great dam line and give them to the same breeder without knowledge of either line, the progeny from mare from the great dam line as a whole will be superior to the progeny from the other mare as a whole. Individual offspring may be better or worse, but there will be a difference overall.[/QUOTE]
This ^^^…and this also begs the question. Why would anyone want a breeding mare from an un-productive family ? One has to ask themselves the question…if the cultivators of said un-productive mare line can’t make it produce…why would I ever think I could ?
There are many stamms in Holstein that I would never entertain owning a breeding mare from , no matter how good she was individually.
I was curious if anyone has read the paper that was presented at last year’s 10th World Congress of Genetics Applied to Livestock Production?
It was titled: The role of maternal lineages in horse breeding: Effects on conformation and performance traits
Authors: N. Krattenmacher, J. Tetens, S. Hedt, E. Stamer and G. Thaller
CAU, Institute of Animal Breeding and Husbandry, Hermann-Rodewald-Straße 6, 24098 Kiel, Germany
The abstract:
Maternal lineage effects, probably indicative
of mitochondrial DNA differences, are considered important
in horse breeding. 8,098 Holstein warmblood horses
representing 493 maternal lineages were studied to assess
lineage effects on conformation and performance traits
recorded at studbook inspections. Furthermore, field performance
traits were analyzed using data from 2,329 mares
representing 381 maternal lineages. Variance components
were estimated using animal models considering the fixed
effects age and year-season of assessment (for studbook
inspection traits), and test year and location (for traits
measured at mare performance tests), respectively. Additive
genetic and lineage effects were modelled as random. Heritability
estimates ranged from 0.10 (0.02) to 0.39 (0.06).
Maternal lineage accounted for up to 2.1% of the phenotypic
variation in the traits. Future research should examine the
degree of molecular variation among mitochondrial genomes
of different maternal lineages and its relationship to
phenotypic differences.
The conclusion drawn by the authors of the paper was: “Maternal lineage accounted for up to 2.1% of the
phenotypic variation in the analyzed traits (e.g. canter under
the rider).”
I do not think the paper is restricted access, so I included it’s link in case people are interested in checking it out.
https://www.asas.org/docs/default-source/wcgalp-proceedings-oral/283_paper_8966_manuscript_334_0.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Thanks for the article, Stoney447. It’s interesting and leads to the thought that Holstein would be an ideal laboratory for population genetics studies because breeding is so regulated, the horse numbers are relatively small, and the mares are so treasured that new blood hasn’t been introduced down there for decades.
If at each horse inspection, DNA is obtained and, for instance, the MtDNA is classified, then show results could be classified by MtDNA haplotype and haplogroup as well. There would also be a large bank of DNA that could be accessed for study.
Maybe some one should talk to the Verband and see if they would interested.
Thanks for the article, Stoney447. I wonder what year it was presented. It’s interesting and leads to the thought that Holstein would be an ideal laboratory for population genetics studies because breeding is so regulated, the horse numbers are relatively small, and the mares are so treasured that new blood hasn’t been introduced down there for decades.
If at each horse inspection, DNA is obtained and, for instance, the MtDNA is classified, then show results could be classified by MtDNA haplotype and haplogroup as well. There would also be a large bank of DNA that could be accessed for study.
Maybe some one should talk to the Verband and see if they would interested.
[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8108128]
Maybe, maybe not.
But if you take a mare from a great dam line and a mare from a not-so-great dam line and give them to the same breeder without knowledge of either line, the progeny from mare from the great dam line as a whole will be superior to the progeny from the other mare as a whole. Individual offspring may be better or worse, but there will be a difference overall.[/QUOTE]
Yes, obviously.
But my point was that that mare will probably produce better with a breeder with knowledge of the dam line. She will also be better positioned to pass on that to the next filly in the dam line.
From the historical perspective:
The Davenport importation from the desert, where Homer Davenport’s selection criteria was renowned war mares, or their sons and daughters.
Two of the war mares he imported were *Urfah and *Wadduda. *Urfah’s main contribution was her son *Hamrah, though she produced a good but sort of minor daughter line. *Hamrah was the most popular and used stallion of the group, and in early American breeding he had ENORMOUS influence through his daughters (his sire line died out early.)
*Wadduda-- out of 6 daughters listed on the allbreed site, 3 were EXTREMELY influential in early Arabian breeding (and still have daughter lines.) Part of the reason these daughters and their daughters were so influential was that these daughter lines produced several influential Arabian stallions (like Fadjur). *Wadduda’s one daughter by the above *Hamrah, Moliah, was very influential, she had the X-chromosomes of both *Urfah and *Wadduda. One of her sons, Antez, was used at the Kellogg ranch from its beginning, and a few of her daughters bred on. Her inbred daughter, Sankirah (by *Hamrah) produced the influential stallion Hanad who was used at the Kellogg ranch also.
My point is that it is mainly through these mares sons or grandsons that the influence of their genetic code still permeates the American bred Arabian even though they may still be 12 generations back or further. Even now, if I wanted a non-Al Khamsa Arabian stallion to use for breeding, choosing between two equivalent colts, if one had the *Wadduda mare line I’d probably choose him.
Worship your dam lines. The good ones have a lasting influence on the breed no matter how many outcrosses are made to the line.
"The conclusion drawn by the authors of the paper was: “Maternal lineage accounted for up to 2.1% of the phenotypic variation in the analyzed traits (e.g. canter under
the rider).”
So is this statistically significant? And what makes up the other 98 % of the “phenotypic variation in the analyzed traits.”
