Dam lines

[Elles]

The female family of my Thoroughbred produced these horses:
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Families/Family2e.htm
FANFURRINA (ARG) b f 1925 Cad (ARG) … ARG D
SARCASTICA (ARG) ch f 1921 Cad (ARG) … ARG O
REIGH COUNT (USA) ch c 1925 Sunreigh (GB) … USA KD
NEMBUTAL (FR) br c 1957 Yorick (FR) … SPA D
FASCINATION (GB) b f 1896 Royal Hampton (GB) … GB 1G
STEFAN THE GREAT (GB) gr c 1916 The Tetrarch (IRE)
CANDY SPOTS (USA) ch c 1960 Nigromante (ARG) … USA B
MARTIAL (IRE) ch c 1957 Hill Gail (USA) … GB 2G
ARCTIC STAR (AUS) b f 1959 Arctic Explorer (GB) … AUS VRC O AJC O
NUFFIELD (AUS) ch c 1935 Heroic (AUS) … AUS MRC G AJC D VRC D
THRICE (AUS) b c 1914 The Welkin (GB) … AUS MRC G
HALL MARK (AUS) ch c 1930 Heroic (AUS) … AUS AJC D VRC D M
WILLIAM THE THIRD (GB) b c 1898 St. Simon (GB) … GB AGC
INDIANA (IRE) b c 1961 Sayajirao (GB) … GB SL

http://pedigree.bogus.jp/ffamily.php?id=10055

But also quite a number of mares from this family did not produce good offspring.
So what should I make of this?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=294455
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=136609 and:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=578976 and:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=701835
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=384236
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=95338
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=771177
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10009188
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10175365
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10171616
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10560316
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10106023

[vineyridge]

Elles, I’ve heard racing people describe mares from great dams who didn’t produce anything in generations afterwards as “dead branches on the speed tree.” I don’t know if the same thing applies in the WB breeding world, but the mare lines can reawaken in TBs. If you look at the pedigree of American Pharoah, who might one of the favorites for the KY Derby, his dam produced him, his granddam produced blacktype, but there were dead generations (3rd and 4th) before the 5th generation mare produced black type.

There are also mare lines that produce stallions and mare lines that produce broodmares. There are mare lines that have been good for hundreds of years and there are mare lines that suddenly become good broodmare lines which last for generations. Then there are mare lines that once were good and have since died as broodmare lines. Nobody seems to quite know why all these things are, but it’s clear that they are.

[Elles]

Some people say the good mares have to be duplicated. But good for breeding does not always tell you that the mare was a good performer herself.
http://sportingpost.co.za/wp-content/uploads/sires/pedigrees/what-a-winter-e.pdf
https://sites.google.com/site/cosmosthoroughbredpedigrees/female-families/female-family-feast
http://www.theinformant.co.nz/racing/archive/2011/10/RI1055/Not-a-sales-pedigree-Never-despair

This is about the dam line (going back to Eyewash) of the sire (who did not do much on the track) of my Thorougbred:
http://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/australia/default.aspx?id=56556
Mosheen’s third dam, Benediction (IRE), was by the little known sire Day is Done and from a daughter of Collyria (won Doncaster Park Hill Stakes). Collyria was out of Lancashire Oaks winner Eyewash, a daughter of All Moonshine, a three-quarter sister to Hyperion, a great English 3-year-old who won the English Derby in a canter by officially four lengths, but to some observers by up to eight, and in record time.
http://www1.kcn.ne.jp/~oak/blood/female/6/All_Moonshine-6.html
http://www.idshs.com.au/perl/search.pl?op=reverse&index=selene&gens=5
Sire of my horse: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10538819

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Elles;8109054]
Some people say the good mares have to be duplicated. But good for breeding does not always tell you that the mare was a good performer herself.
http://sportingpost.co.za/wp-content/uploads/sires/pedigrees/what-a-winter-e.pdf[/QUOTE]

Tesio believed that a mare who is a superlative performer herself will usually not make a good broodmare. His belief is based on observation, because his theory on why is not supported by today’s science. And, in the main, he’s right. Superlative performers are very rarely able to outproduce themselves. I think it is Two Lea who was able to do that–she was the dam of Tim Tam, and also a very great race mare. But there are very, very few in her category.

Selene and Somethingroyal were dams of sires primarily. La Troienne was mostly a broodmare dam. Pretty Polly is almost exclusively a broodmare dam.

La Troienne couldn’t race her way out of a paper bag. Nor, for that matter could Somethingroyal, the dam of Secretariat and Sir Gaylord.

Pretty Polly was a superlative performer from a relatively obscure dam line, and she created a broodmare line that has been good ever since her. Sceptre was also a superlative performer who created a pretty good broodmare line, but she came from a much better family than Pretty Polly.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8109013]
Elles, I’ve heard racing people describe mares from great dams who didn’t produce anything in generations afterwards as “dead branches on the speed tree.” I don’t know if the same thing applies in the WB breeding world, but the mare lines can reawaken in TBs. If you look at the pedigree of American Pharoah, who might one of the favorites for the KY Derby, his dam produced him, his granddam produced blacktype, but there were dead generations (3rd and 4th) before the 5th generation mare produced black type.

There are also mare lines that produce stallions and mare lines that produce broodmares. There are mare lines that have been good for hundreds of years and there are mare lines that suddenly become good broodmare lines which last for generations. Then there are mare lines that once were good and have since died as broodmare lines. Nobody seems to quite know why all these things are, but it’s clear that they are.[/QUOTE]

It is absolutely the same with WB’s…for instance , Holsteiner stamm 776 is #1 in the world for the production of international showjumpers. However , there are branches of 776 that haven’t produced anything. Same with all female family trees.

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8108656]
Thanks for the article, Stoney447. I wonder what year it was presented. It’s interesting and leads to the thought that Holstein would be an ideal laboratory for population genetics studies because breeding is so regulated, the horse numbers are relatively small, and the mares are so treasured that new blood hasn’t been introduced down there for decades.

If at each horse inspection, DNA is obtained and, for instance, the MtDNA is classified, then show results could be classified by MtDNA haplotype and haplogroup as well. There would also be a large bank of DNA that could be accessed for study.

Maybe some one should talk to the Verband and see if they would interested.[/QUOTE]

The paper was presented in August 2014. I believe that the researchers, which were out of Kiel, Germany were working with material that the verband provided directly to them in terms of DNA samples and mare performance results. However, this data and the paper they presented appears to just be a pilot study likely in an effort to obtain more funding to do more research in this field. The data presented is very sparse and I hope they will be able to go more in depth over the next few years.

[QUOTE=omare;8108770]"The conclusion drawn by the authors of the paper was: “Maternal lineage accounted for up to 2.1% of the phenotypic variation in the analyzed traits (e.g. canter under
the rider).”
So is this statistically significant? And what makes up the other 98 % of the “phenotypic variation in the analyzed traits.”[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately the data presented in the paper does not allow us to discern whether the results are statistically significant or not since p-values were not included. Although, to be honest, I work mostly in epidemiology so I am not really certain what is the most appropriate way to present heritability data. Outwest, a poster here who has a PhD in genetics, could likely shed more light on the findings than I can.

The nuclear genome, which results from genetic contribution of both sire and dam would make up the other 98% in this case.

I am not really certain about validity or impact of this type of study, especially since it appears this is just a pilot study and more data is to come. I just wanted to share it because it appears that there is current research in academia trying to address the impact of the damline, and as a breeder and a scientist I am excited about this and hope that more of this type of research continues to develop in the future!

[omare]

Thanks–nice to have so many posters with science backgrounds on the board (to translate for us liberal arts majors!)

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=omare;8109469]
Thanks–nice to have so many posters with science backgrounds on the board (to translate for us liberal arts majors!)[/QUOTE]

This^^^^^