Liberty work is so much more than treats and games and, in general, does not if fact start with the horse being off lead. In fact, to do it well, you need to have a lot of structure and boundaries. My horse can stand and not move when I put him some place … is that a game? a trick? just good ground manners. It doesn’t matter how you label it. Horses don’t know the difference between being taught to bow or being asked to jump over a fence. It is all tricks and games to them. Also not all liberty is taught with a treat. I use treats or clicker training for some of my training, but not for other things.
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My point exactly. If someone thinks they can just do liberty work because they don’t have good inhand or groundwork skills, that’s a disaster. It happens.
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I’m still not convinced that a post so seemingly tailored to make horse(wo)men cringe can be real. But if it is, the above is the crux of your problem.
Your horse doesn’t need you to be his bestie, or to be “both one” with you. Horses are not that cloyingly sentimental (thankfully). Your horse’s behavior sounds a heck of a lot like what a horse does when it wants someone to step up and be the boss. Knowing who’s in charge makes herd dynamics work, and typically makes horses feel more secure. Outside of the herd, some horses are pretty confident in their own leadership (and can end up being bombproof babysitters or exceedingly dangerous, depending on how they’re handled/trained). But most, including yours from the sound of it, need someone else to step into that leadership role, and can get pretty nervous if nobody steps up to say “I got this”. For all this talk about relationships and teamwork and becoming one, you seem to be missing the fact that your horse might never develop the trust in you that you seem to desire if you don’t step up to become a trustworthy boss.
If the turnout situation isn’t working and you’re not able to try to introduce your guy to a different group, then you need to evaluate whether this barn provides a situation that you and your horse can live with. There’s no magic solution to such things.
I think you’ll have better luck with the away-from-buddy behavior (and will be more likely to end up in a relationship of trust with your horse in the long run) if you stop trying so hard to live a teen lit fantasy of perfect harmony with a second chance horse and get help learning the basics – and how to handle this particular horse – from a good trainer. From your posts it sounds like there are bigger horsemanship holes here than bulletin board advice could ever hope to patch.
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The teen fantasy is a fantasy about total emotional control over another creature. He loves me so much he has no desires or ideas of his own!
But this is an impoverished idea of horses. They have many ideas of their own, and that’s wonderful and interesting. It also means that you have to make sure your ideas predominate at every moment.
Think of them as toddler children in this regard. You don’t want to be the mean boss of a 3 year old person. But you also aren’t going to get very far thinking they love you so much they can anticipate every desire.
You also can’t get very far that way with adults. " He loves me so much he does everything I want " is also teen fantasy about romance, and it leads to super entwined co dependent relationships that blow up and break hearts the moment the boyfriend decides to throw his head in the air and gallop for freedom.
I digress.
But my point is, I recognize my mare has her own ideas about everything and I need to constantly quietly enforce my authority as a good leader. Honestly this is far more respectful of her autonomy as another living creature than imagining she could be totally subservient to my every whim 24/7.
Now it looks like she is when we do a trick performance. But that’s why it’s called tricks. It’s not real, or not entirely real.
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So it’s possible that being in a new barn/situation has shown you some gaps in your training. That happens, but you need to address them so you’re handling the horse safely, first of all. It’s going to be a lot more fun/easy when horse is calm and listening to you, rather than doing his own thing. I agree with other posters that you need groundwork basics first, then build off of that for liberty training/tricks. If you can’t lead him properly/quietly/relaxed, I don’t see how you will be able to do much else.
I am not a troll or lying about any of this. I am thinking and going though ideas of why he’s like this and what I can do without making him upset. I do not see my horse as a tool, machine, money maker or anything else besides a ten mate and friend. I don’t do shows or have my horse as a job. I don’t want to sound rude, but I don’t want my horse looking to me like I’m the boss and being scared if he does something wrong. We are a team.
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I think you need to reframe this where horse looks to you for guidance/leadership when he’s scared/unsure (or, really, at all times) because you’re the boss, rather than boss being a scary figure. You can be firm and in charge and fair/kind without being “mean”. Have a good groundwork trainer show you how; a lot of it is in your body language, the horse’s body language and knowing when and how to apply/release pressure (when & how to ask, when & how to reward, etc). Perhaps they can also give you advice on your boarding situation and horse being herd/buddy-bound.
It’ll build a better relationship between you and your horse. Your horse isn’t going to follow and listen to you if he doesn’t trust you first, and he’s not going to trust you if he thinks he’s the one in charge. And being in charge is stressful – so think of it as a kind thing to do for your horse, to remove that stress by stepping up and being “the boss”.
It’s a very romantic notion to think that a horse will choose to be with their One True Person and chose to behave for them and do stuff for them. You’re going to get further, with more tangible results, with good training and horsemanship, rather than relying on an emotional connection – I think you can build that through training, rather than the other way around, actually. Regardless if you have the horse for fun or for business.
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I understand why someone might disagree with a chain shank (although I was going to recommend one) but how would wearing a protective vest impact your relationship with your horse? I’m not being snarky, I genuinely want to know.
I also have anxiety issues, and the vest makes a world of difference. If my horse thinks I look dumb in it, he’s never said anything.
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Very good point.
It is becoming more common for junior programs and Pony Club to require young riders to wear helmets at all times working horses on the ground. It is not a bad idea for begginer adults either. Ditto vests. And everyone should have good boots and gloves.
I still ended up in a soft cast for 8 weeks last winter because I was walking two frisky horses that bolted through a gate and ran over me. I was very lucky I wasn’t stepped on except for the broken foot that knocked me down.
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Sweetie - you ARE the boss and he should RESPECT you. Not fear you, that’s a whole ‘nother thing. And you get to be a team by being a leader and having him follow/respect you. He won’t fear being punished unjustly unless you well - punish him unjustly. Right now he is pushing pushing pushing you to see where your limits are. And apparently you have none. Arabs are wicked smart - keep that in mind. Also, horses do not think the way we do and do not have the sensibilities you are vesting them with. Horses don’t lie - they are very direct: whatever goes up, must come down. End o’ story. Please listen to what we are telling you - we want you to be happy and in one piece.
anything else is just excuses. Yabbut. Yabbut. Yabbut.
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I don’t think beginners should be messing about with chain shanks either (Jesus God!) but I do think calling in a reputable trainer is a very good idea.
Good luck to you, OP.
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My point is basic horsemanship doesn’t have to be rebranded 1000 times but more power if you add a couple tricks into it and make some $$ off of ppl like the O P. The OP said they used treats, btw.
I firmly believe horses know the diff between play and work. Anyone who has trained a “serious” horse knows they do indeed strive for performance, body language is different when they get to work than just messing around, etc.
My horse is at her most focused and serious when we are doing clicker tricks. She is thinking ahead, trying to outdo herself, adding flourishes. Her face just lights up when I am trying to show her something new, or when we get to a strange venue and she realizes it’s a trick performance! And children! And treats! And praise!
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Scribbler, he is not a '“rescue” or “upgrade” horse. His last owner had him for a summer and he was a really great horse, he must have been professionally trained from the second to last owner before me. Although, my mother bought him as a surprise for me when I was about 11. I was very inexperienced and had no trainer or guidance at all. I have always read up on horses, even in elementary school, so I was going off my research. I stil,l to this day, do research constantly. He was a really nice, trained horse. I was inexperienced with on-hand care and handling and had no idea what I was doing. I pretty much “untrained” him. After years of work and riding, he learned a way that was easy for both of us. With riding, I really didn’t have to do anything besides look where I was going and tell him the pace to go. He had full trust in me. He is an amazing horse and he is not pushy on the ground, I believe he lost trust in me after I took him away from his old barn and herd.
I was way past over worried about him when I made the original post and desperately wanted help. I have now calmed down and decided to simply talk to the trainer and barn manager to decide what to do. I still believe that a horse and rider/owner should be a team though. My horse and I are a great team, he would follow me anywhere and listen to what I say, unless he was uncomfortable or really didn’t want to do it, then I wouldn’t make him. I feel like you guys are only looking at one side of this, as me being inexperienced. I may be inexperienced at parts of this, but I still know what I’m doing after having him for so many years and searching for as long as I can remember. Moving him to a new barn so unexpectedly made him stressed and after looking into it, the probably made him hold on to the new horses because he doesn’t believe he will be brought back to them when someone takes him away.
I understand there are incredible and respectable horse people on this board. Although, my horse is different than theirs as he is more of a companion/liberty horse than a high-class show jumper or anything of the sort. He is not much of a riding horse anymore, I don’t really ride anymore besides my lessons, which is her horse that I ride.
I appreciate all the help, I really do but I feel more attacked than anything. I may not be a professional horse rider or an olympic level rider, but I know what is best for my horse and I, and that does not include people telling me I need to boss my horse around like he is some machine I bought to make money off of. Again, I appreciate the help, but I no longer need tips or advice any longer. I am no kid that bought a pony because it was pretty, nor am I such an inexperienced equestrian that I don’t know what liberty work really is. Liberty is a work in progress for me, I am not trying to say I am a pro at it, I am still training my horse with it.
There was a quote I’ve heard, something along the lines of “Enjoy your job and you’ll never have to work a day in your life,” so why should it be any different for a horse?
Thank you,
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There is a backstory I don’t want to dwell in to. The other reason is after calming down and realizing he isn’t that much of a danger to me, I don’t really need it. In my head, the only reason I would need a vest is if I am working him so hard that he gets upset and tries to hurt me. My personal mindset does not like protective vests or any protection really besides proper shoes, proper clothes and helmet when riding.
For the treat thing, he works best with treats and I have slowly gone down to using less an less treats over time. I started out using treats because that was when I discovered liberty and then noticed he only listens when there is a treat in my hand. Lately, I give him a treat every few tricks, stretches, or anything else. He doesn’t solely work with the treat. He likes it so that’s what I use, he’s working so why not give him something nice every once in a while?
This is absolutely false.
I know that the OP says shes checked out, but for anyone else who is here to learn:
Horses do not have to be in “Fight” mode for us (the rider/handler) to get hurt.
Any horse who does not respect your personal space or boundaries CAN HURT YOU. No, Dobbin might not mean to hurt you, but when it is more important to get back to his friends/stall/away from the monster in the corner than it is to not push/bump/run over his handler, the small human will be the one who gets hurt.
End of lesson (that we all knew)
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I think it’s a very good idea that you are asking training and barn manager for advice. Hopefully they can help and you will listen to their advice and make this situation better for your horse.
Your horse is still a horse, regardless if he jumps/competes/gets ridden or not, and still needs to respect & follow the human working with them. My retired horse has to mind his manners even though he is retired – and he’s super mellow anyway, but if he were not or if he were herd bound, I would work on that because it’s a safety issue. He still has to be led from one place to another, stand for vet and farrier and for grooming, etc. And it’s just plain easier/more fun to be around a horse when they have are relaxed, have manners, and respect people’s space/boundaries/instruction. I think it’s because of this that my horse will follow me around without a halter or leadrope; if I let him do whatever he wanted, why would he feel like following me. Unless I had a bunch of carrots. 
that does not include people telling me I need to boss my horse around like he is some machine I bought to make money off of.
Literally no one has said this, except you. I think it’s unfortunate and a sign of inexperience that you are stuck in this mindset, or filtering advice through this idea that being in charge means you are some cruel boss in it for profit and uncaring about horse’s feeeelings. But I think most people outgrow the Black Stallion Syndrome and learn to communicate with (train) a horse like they are a horse and not a projection of our anthropomorphic fantasies.
I get wanting a horse to love you so much they choose to be with you and do what you want them to do (hey, I’ve been there, I was also a 12 year old girl at one point, and it’s certainly a nice feeling when retired horse follows me around when he doesn’t HAVE to), but I learned that horses like having consistent rules/boundaries (ie, training) and do better when they can relax because they know I know what I’m doing (at least some of the time – if I encountered a horse I was not comfortable handling, whether it was because we were in a new situation or something else happened, I would ask someone else more experienced for help and maybe take their advice, instead of putting the responsibility on the horse to magically behave and think like a human – I think that is more unfair to them, frankly, than a person being “the boss”).
There was a quote I’ve heard, something along the lines of “Enjoy your job and you’ll never have to work a day in your life,” so why should it be any different for a horse?
Look at it another way – based on your descriptions, your horse is NOT enjoying whatever is going on now, with being herdbound and difficult to handle. It’s a safety issue, too; even if they do not intend to hurt us, they still can, from sheer size/strength alone. Do you not think it’s more work for him to be stressed and difficult to lead? vs relaxed and listening to you?
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OP, you’re absolutely, 100% right and your first post was a big mistake anyway. So no further discussion needed, right? So it’s a bit odd that you keep coming back with justifications and trying to draw out more responses.
Or gosh, could you maybe be trolling?
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I think it’s cool though because the horse is old and the op has black stallion syndrome, so hopefully the horse can just live out his life in these pastures without fear of being passed on because the op can’t even lead him safely. I imagine the barn manager or staff probably manages him just fine so he can at least get his feet done.
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OP, your story is making less and less sense to me.
You were given the horse when you were 11. He is now 19, so you are now 19? You have had him 8 years and you are not comfortable riding him, you are not comfortable handling him on the ground, you never had riding lessons or groundwork or any intelligent adult support? You basically made a mess of the horse and there was no one to step in and see you were getting into trouble and the situation was going sideways? Possibly from what you imply you have some physical issues keeping you off the horse? You have some emotional issues making it difficult to deal with people?
This barn is your first exposure to a trainer? This barn is your first possibility of riding lessons?
OP I am truly sorry that your teen riding years were a washout. I had a rather green horse with no intelligent adult oversight and we ended up having a blast, trail riding everywhere and doing sliding stops on the school sports field and both learning a ton.
That experience taught me what it feels like when your horse is a willing partner, and what kind of consistent handling it takes to get there. Coming back to riding as an adult however there has been tons to learn about ground work and problem solving and horse psychology.
OP I say this because from what you say I gather you are bit backed into a corner and defensive and also maybe defensive or despairing about ever being a better rider or horse person. But you can indeed change your horse, if you change yourself.
It’s clear that your experience to date has given you no exposure to competent horsemen or instruction. If you are in a place that offers that this is a wonderful opportunity to let go of your ego and learn.
If you want to see how really good horsemen manage to achieve leadership with kind and calm techniques, search out the line of horsemanship that runs through Ray Hunt, Buck Branaham, and their students. It’s a real eye opener if you have been living in a world where there is no model of decent horsemanship.
Right now you think there is only a choice between cruelty and incompetence, and you prefer the latter. What you need is to discover the kind of horsemanship that is kind, gentle, patient, but also competent and consistent. You have clearly never had exposure to kind competent horsemanship. Go discover it. It’s out there.
Whatever your own physical and emotional challenges, you can learn basic ground work skills. These will help your horse learn to trust you so that he follows you as a leader rather than panics because he does not trust or believe in you as leader.
A horse will not trust your leadership just because he likes you or thinks you are a nice person. Neither will a person.
And dogs are animals that love love love us. But unless you teach them basic obedience skills they stay a
yelping bolting mess. I knew a girl your age long ago who refused to train or leash her dogs. They ran loose with no collars. They got hit by cars in the city, shot for chasing sheep in the country.
Same for horses.
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