Dangerous buddy sour issue!

[shiloh]

Yabbut yabbut yabbut….

I’m done. Can’t talk to people who do not want to listen.

[ladyj79]

To be honest, this thread is pretty funny though :lol::lol::lol:

[ejm]

Regarding “being the boss” - horses are flight animals, and it’s hard-wired into them that either you are in charge and will protect them from predators, or they are in charge because they don’t trust you to keep them alive.

Your horse is in a strange new place, with a bunch of other horses, new pastures, new barn, new people, and he is looking for a horse or person that can take care of him. You can be that person, but it sounds like you should look for some help from your riding instructor or barn owner to figure out how you can recapture his trust with all these new stimuli.

“Being the boss” isn’t beating them up til they give in, it’s requiring respect and getting them to develop trust and confidence in you as the herd leader.

A very good horseman once told me that you should have a partnership with your horse, but you are the 51% partner and your horse is the 49% partner.

[x-halt-salute]

@Scribbler

OP, your story is making less and less sense to me.

You were given the horse when you were 11. He is now 19, so you are now 19? You have had him 8 years and you are not comfortable riding him, you are not comfortable handling him on the ground, you never had riding lessons or groundwork or any intelligent adult support? You basically made a mess of the horse and there was no one to step in and see you were getting into trouble and the situation was going sideways? Possibly from what you imply you have some physical issues keeping you off the horse? You have some emotional issues making it difficult to deal with people?

This barn is your first exposure to a trainer? This barn is your first possibility of riding lessons?

If she’s had him for 8 years, either the math in a prior post doesn’t add up (4+1 =/= 8) or she forgot where she put him for a few years:

@vulture

I, now that I have a clear head, believe it’s almost like trauma from being separated from his last herd, which he was with for I believe four years. Before that, he was in a bare filed with a dirty creek as a water source for a year. I am not sure where he was before that.

I think @HungarianHippo is on to something. Why show up over and over just to add bizarre or inconsistent details? “Reading up on horses” in elementary school counts as “research”, in lieu of lessons/training? Basic leadership in working with horses means you have “to boss my horse around like he is some machine I bought to make money off of”? What planet are we on right now?

@Scribbler

And dogs are animals that love love love us. But unless you teach them basic obedience skills they stay a
yelping bolting mess. I knew a girl your age long ago who refused to train or leash her dogs. They ran loose with no collars. They got hit by cars in the city, shot for chasing sheep in the country.

Same for horses.

Given how many people I come across on the trail who’d insist that their off-leash dog is well trained even as it chases critters over hill and dale, pees on strangers’ daypacks while they’re stopped for lunch, bowls over small children, and ignores a dozen attempts to call it back, I’m guessing that the dog analogy might not universally elicit the notion of good training as part of one’s responsibility as an animal’s caretaker…

[Denali6298]

This thread is a prime example of how Liberty Training and “Natural Horsemanship” training gets a bad rap. I put NH in quotes because I hate the term but lack a better one to describe common sense horsemanship.

Ya get people who assign human feelings and emotions to horses. Being the boss mare is not about harsh handling. It’s about being the leader which ALL heard animals look for. Yes horses have opinions and we need to figure out what they are saying. However, sometimes it’s a simple “you can’t make me.”

[cheval_convert]

OP, I was a somewhat experienced horseman when I got my current horse. He was 5 when I got him in the fall - the following spring he discovered girls!!! (He was gelded but his hormones were still hopping.) He was in a herd with 3 older mares and 1 older gelding.

The older mares taught him his herd manners but when I took him out of the herd to work with him, he was impossible. He would call the mares constantly, could not stand quietly on the cross-ties, and walk right over me even if I did have a shank on him. I had one vet tell me that if I did not do something, he would hurt someone. (The same vet has since complimented me on the progress that has been made.) With the help of my instructor and the barn manager and a rope halter, I did get control. Consistency, firmness and fairness were the key to improving his behavior. He had to learn that when he was with me, his attention was to be on me. We definitely had a few go-rounds that to me were ugly (but never cruel) and then he turned the corner. He is a delight to work with now. We do have a partnership now and when I am in the tack, I absolutely trust him to take care of me.

In case you think that he must hate me for having made him behave: when I ride him bareback, I frequently end our ride by riding him into his paddock, dismounting and taking his bridle off. Instead of immediately going to find his herd, he stands next to me and rests his head against me, looking for scratches and treats. In this quiet mode, he is just as happy to be with me as he is to be with his pasturemates. It took a lot of work on my part, but the partnership we have now, made it worth all of the work.

[Scribbler]

Yes, horses want to be with the creature they understand to be their leader, horse or human. They will be much more affectionate towards a person that has established that role.

When my mare is being handled by my coach, who broke her, maresy won’t even look at me. She knows coach is boss of both of us. I can see my mate actively ignoring me, just like a Grade 6 girl walking around the playground with the Queen Bee. Coach doesn’t even handle her that much anymore but it still sticks.

I actually think it’s incredibly cute and a real sign of how acute a mare’s sense of hierarchy is. When coach is not present mare is totally attentive to me.

[SuzieQNutter]

Thre reason you don’t “feed treats all the time because it makes him happy” is that you can be teaching him to bite you.

[Scribbler]

@SuzieQNutter

Thre reason you don’t “feed treats all the time because it makes him happy” is that you can be teaching him to bite you.

Treats can be useful in a coherent clicker training regimen. Fed randomly not so much.

[SuzieQNutter]

@Scribbler

Treats can be useful in a coherent clicker training regimen. Fed randomly not so much.

Feed treats can be very useful in any training. Fed randomly not at all.

[Scribbler]

@x-halt-salute

If she’s had him for 8 years, either the math in a prior post doesn’t add up (4+1 =/= 8) or she forgot where she put him for a few years:

I think @HungarianHippo is on to something. Why show up over and over just to add bizarre or inconsistent details? “Reading up on horses” in elementary school counts as “research”, in lieu of lessons/training? Basic leadership in working with horses means you have “to boss my horse around like he is some machine I bought to make money off of”? What planet are we on right now?

Given how many people I come across on the trail who’d insist that their off-leash dog is well trained even as it chases critters over hill and dale, pees on strangers’ daypacks while they’re stopped for lunch, bowls over small children, and ignores a dozen attempts to call it back, I’m guessing that the dog analogy might not universally elicit the notion of good training as part of one’s responsibility as an animal’s caretaker…

Yeah there’s missing background here. Either OP is really 14, or OP lost control or ownership of horse for a few years, or of course we could be dealing with fabulation. Or life events and crises that OP isn’t sharing and indeed probably shouldn’t.

Either way I do believe the basic scenario because I’ve seen enough newbies with unsuitable horses and no idea of horsemanship get into trouble trying to manage in budget situations without trainers or lessons.

I can totally see someone with poor riding and handling skills making up a defensive construction in which they convince themselves their incompetence is “kinder” or “better” than some imaginary version of the Cruel Professional Rider that Bosses the Horse. Indeed I’ve seen versions if this play out IRL.

Liberty performance and riding are a lovely thing to watch but you don’t get there just playing in a sunny field with your horse. The videos and performances from professional trainers that show this are the end result, not the beginning of a process. I think there has been an uptick in professional iberty riding videos, not to mention Cavallia (highly trained circus horses) and mustang rehab and what not that is very seductive to newbies but ultimately very misleading.

[oppsfelldown]

@vulture

Thanks for all the tips, but I won’t be using a chain shank, or protective gear on the ground.

I appreciate all the help, but again; this isn’t a horse that is pushy or dominant at all.

I think moving him so fast is just bringing out untrustworthiness and separation issues. He would never try to hurt me, he was head butting me yesterday, like he was trying to push me out of the barn. He really did try to be gentle with me. I think he’s more of a danger to himself really.

Thanks everyone! I’ll talk to my trainer (she hasn’t been involved in my horse yet though, I’ve been riding hers.)

V

OK - is your horse trying to hurt you? probably not but he is also very much not respecting you as the handler. I had the top of my head cracked open by a horse that was acting like a fool because her buddy was gone. Cracked me like an egg with the bit right on top of the melon, bled like a murder victim and not something i ever recommend anyone have to deal with, MRIs suck. and so do concussions.

Why on earth would you not use a lead chain? that would be the first thing I put on the horse. You can put them on and then clip the lead back to the halter so there is minimal pressure but just a bit more WTF than a regular halter. Or try a Be-Nice or knotted halter.(one of the regular halters with knots on the noseband - not one of those tie on things)

Addressing the pushy/not dominate comment - his current behavior completely cancels this statement out.

If you were in my barn…a helmet would be mandatory for all ground work and a chain would be on his face until he chilled out.

Get your trainer involved and do exactly what she says, regardless if you think it is mean or will upset the schnookims.

As for the old horse that started all this mess - these two need to be separated to pastures and stalls as far apart as possible. Its not on you if the other horse gets upset, not your problem, Your problem is only getting your horse back under control and safe to handle and ride.

[sdlbredfan]

You definitely need to use a chain lead, correctly wrapped around the noseband of the halter, for your own safety. Sometimes that is the only way to get the horse to pay attention. If you do not know the correct way to use a chain lead, I hope the trainer where you are can teach you.

One does NOT keep a steady pull on the chain. The idea is to provide a ‘release’ via a slack as long as the horse is behaving. If the horse does not respond to a verbal whoa and a polite pull on the lead, then you give one short pull, ONE sharp pull, harder, and if necessary your elbow into the horse’s shoulder to prevent crowding. The instant the horse responds, you GIVE SLACK as that is the reward that teaches the horse to pay attention.

I do not know why you are opposed to using the correct tool for the problem, but I agree with the others who say you need more help from a trainer or other more knowledgeable person. No matter how much experience any of us has, there is always something more to learn, and always the likelihood something is missing from what we know. Good luck, and keep us posted.

[hoopoe]

since I did not see anyone else suggest it I would make sure this horse is on as cold a diet as possible. Grass hay or Tim. If the diet has changed in the new barn, this might be how it is showing up. I would back off supplements vitamins boosters and the like

but otherwise, yup, stop feeding all the treats and get some idea about ground manner training from someone with more experience

[vulture]

Just to clear it up, when I bought him, they said he was 17 but about two years ago I checked his teeth and it looked like he was 17 then. I am estimating his age. Sorry fr the confusion. I am not a troll, I don’t see why a person would make an account and make a post about a fake issue with a horse for fun? That doesn’t make sense and I don’t find this funny. My horse has been at a barn but it wasn’t really a “boarding” barn. It was an older couple that was a friend of a friends and we moved my horse there from the field he was in. I have not had any real boarding barn experience is what I am saying.

I do not feed my horse treats randomly, he gets them when he deserves them.

Please stop assuming I am some idiot 14 year old who is trolling. I was looking for help originally but I have only been attacked for my horsemanship. I will repeat that I don’t need to boss him around or even be dominant at all with him. He was an amazing partner at the old barn, I believe this is all just stress and will hopefully fade with time and training. Also, I am in the beginning stages of liberty work, I am not going to be perfect.

V

[Altag]

@vulture

I made an account here simply to make this post. It is very important! I saw a few posts but nothings helped enough for me to make a big enough move.

I have an Arabian, about 19 or so, I’m not positive. I just moved him to a new barn a couple weeks ago. He has finally gotten comfortable and is no longer getting bitten or pushed around. Although, he got too comfortable. Another horse there called Charlie, who is about 32, always has a best friend. His bff left him around the time we arrived at the barn. My horse suddenly moves in and they are best friends (after biting each other a bit of course.) I don’t ride very often since I am a bit large for such a small horse, but I was hoping with a new barn with an arena and everything I need, I could finally ride and make my horse strong and healthy again. (he may be a bit older but he does not show it!)

So, I rode a bit in the arena (the stalls surround the arena, it’s unique and so cool!) (also the horses are almost always outside unless eating or waiting for a rider/owner) and he was fine, no problems besides the normal “I haven’t been ridden in so long, what is this, whaT IS THIS???” wariness. I didn’t go to the barn for a few days after that, then I got in touch with the trainer and started taking lessons (just getting back into riding for now, nothing specific) and had a session on her horse. It was late so I went home without seeing my horse. It was just a few days Ince I’ve seen him, but today I went out and it was TERRIBLE! I walked far to the end of the field to get home and he was getting jumpy and walking in front of me and trying to go back more and more as we walked to the barn. It started getting dangerous halfway to the barn. He has bolted before, when I used to ride him away from the barn at the old place. But I never went far so I never knew how bad it could be, I didn’t think it could be so bad.

Anyway, I knew he could bolt back to them so I kept a tight grip but still, he is a horse; a large, nearly 1000 pound animal that could kill me in a second. I was worried but I still didn’t know how bad it was. I took him into the barn and just walked him around since a guy with his horse was in my area in front of my stall, and there was a whole barn so I didn’t want to be right there if I had a whole barn but I didn’t want to use someone else’s area and- okay, I have a social anxiety issue and over think things, anyway;

My horse, Maverick, would keep neighing loudly and keep trying to walk out the door to his buddy Charlie. I had a thought, so, whenever he neighed I would make him spin on a front leg. He never stopped neighing by the way. I just kept lunging him, but he would stay as close to the door as possible so it was for like figure eights in front of me rather than circles around me. It was not really getting better and I didn’t want to associate him being away from his buddy, and with me, bad. I eventually let him back out (but he had trouble as he tried going straight to Charlie but there are two fields and he was just standing at a fence looking sad) after about 40-50 minutes.

But!!! Charlie is an old horse and his only buddy is my horse. I believe he is the barn owner’s horse. I just moved there and don’t want to be rude to anyone by putting my horse in a much smaller field, a paddock really, with other horses. I don’t want to hurt Charlie, or his feelings, or metal stability or whatever by separating him from his friend (even though, from what I’ve seen, he doesn’t really care, he doesn’t neigh or move when Maverick is away.) He’s older and can’t walk well, so I can’t work with them together, which was what I wanted to do.
.
Sorry about the whole back story! I go in depth with things, sorry! What I am asking is; What should I do with my horse? Should I separate him in another paddock with a few other horses? I don’t have time to work with him in the field or with other horses. The inside (barn and turnout) field is completely separate from outside (24/7 turnout) field, but the paddock is right next to the indoor field. Ugh, I can’t keep him in the barn all the time, nobody keeps their horse in and it’s not natural for horses and my horse doesn’t like barns unless other horses are there as well.

I don’t show, and I don’t plan on showing; with Maverick at least. Please help me! What do I do???

For posterity.

[Altag]

@vulture

Thanks for all the tips, but I won’t be using a chain shank, or protective gear on the ground. He is an amazing horse, I’ve kind of stopped riding so I’ve been teaching liberty work to him. He enjoys it because he gets treats! I guess the new barn just threw him off a bit, maybe it’s just stress; I took him away from his old barn so quickly, now he doesn’t trust me and wants to stay with other horses because he might be taken away from them? I really do appreciate everyone’s advice but he does respect me, he actually would keep looking to me and then try getting away, like he was asking to go. I’m going to give it some time for now. The barn is large but the turnout is limited. All the fields are close together so my horse can never be truly separated from buddy. I am more worried about his condition, both physically and mentally. I don’t want him hurting himself or others and I don’t want him to lose trust in me, or people in general. I was overly worried yesterday, I’ve got a clearer head now and I’ll try talking to the owner, barn manager, and trainer to see what I should do.

I appreciate all the help, but again; this isn’t a horse that is pushy or dominant at all. He lets you do whatever really, he loves playing around and getting fed treats and getting attention. I, now that I have a clear head, believe it’s almost like trauma from being separated from his last herd, which he was with for I believe four years. Before that, he was in a bare filed with a dirty creek as a water source for a year. I am not sure where he was before that. Long story short, I learned and grew with him. I untrained him, because I had no horse owning experience, and retrained him my way. Aka; listening to voice commands for everything (when riding, if he’s focused, he will go the way you say and how fast or slow,) he walks the way you look when riding, no hands or legs needed. He is a really good horse, I think moving him so fast is just bringing out untrustworthiness and separation issues. He would never try to hurt me, he was head butting me yesterday, like he was trying to push me out of the barn. He really did try to be gentle with me. I think he’s more of a danger to himself really.

Thanks everyone! I’ll talk to my trainer (she hasn’t been involved in my horse yet though, I’ve been riding hers.)

V

@vulture

That helped a lot, I try teaching him things like that often. I taught him to paw and it was a terrible idea! My last barn was just horses, no people. All the borders were older and never came out so it felt like I had 11 horses instead of one since I treated them all like mine. My social anxiety went through the roof at the new barn! I’ve been working on it though. If this happened last year or the year before? No way man, I would be sitting in the stall with Maverick.

Thanks for the help!

@vulture

This really isn’t a troll post, I have no experience with a real barn with my horse. I am looking for advice and help. He never head butts me, and this time it was more like he leaned his head on me, he didn’t throw his head up and force me away at all. He doesn’t disrespect me normally, I think he doesn’t trust me because anytime I’m with him, he’s away from his friends and herd. I don’t believe that a relationship with a horse should be seen as a boss and a submissive horse, I believe it should be a team, or like you are both one. I do liberty work with him and we have a great, sturdy relationship. I think the new barn and buddy threw him off of his old mindset.

I am not a troll or lying about any of this. I am thinking and going though ideas of why he’s like this and what I can do without making him upset. I do not see my horse as a tool, machine, money maker or anything else besides a ten mate and friend. I don’t do shows or have my horse as a job. I don’t want to sound rude, but I don’t want my horse looking to me like I’m the boss and being scared if he does something wrong. We are a team.

V

Just in case, to keep the story straight.

[Altag]

@vulture

There is a backstory I don’t want to dwell in to. The other reason is after calming down and realizing he isn’t that much of a danger to me, I don’t really need it. In my head, the only reason I would need a vest is if I am working him so hard that he gets upset and tries to hurt me. My personal mindset does not like protective vests or any protection really besides proper shoes, proper clothes and helmet when riding.

@vulture

For the treat thing, he works best with treats and I have slowly gone down to using less an less treats over time. I started out using treats because that was when I discovered liberty and then noticed he only listens when there is a treat in my hand. Lately, I give him a treat every few tricks, stretches, or anything else. He doesn’t solely work with the treat. He likes it so that’s what I use, he’s working so why not give him something nice every once in a while?

Vulture, you’ve posted a number of very lengthy posts, so to help keep it clear for everyone, I’m reposting. There have also been many cases on this board of posts going poof, so it helps to have the OP’s posts quoted.

[Altag]

@vulture

Just to clear it up, when I bought him, they said he was 17 but about two years ago I checked his teeth and it looked like he was 17 then. I am estimating his age. Sorry fr the confusion. I am not a troll, I don’t see why a person would make an account and make a post about a fake issue with a horse for fun? That doesn’t make sense and I don’t find this funny. My horse has been at a barn but it wasn’t really a “boarding” barn. It was an older couple that was a friend of a friends and we moved my horse there from the field he was in. I have not had any real boarding barn experience is what I am saying.

I do not feed my horse treats randomly, he gets them when he deserves them.

Please stop assuming I am some idiot 14 year old who is trolling. I was looking for help originally but I have only been attacked for my horsemanship. I will repeat that I don’t need to boss him around or even be dominant at all with him. He was an amazing partner at the old barn, I believe this is all just stress and will hopefully fade with time and training. Also, I am in the beginning stages of liberty work, I am not going to be perfect.

V

…:nonchalance:

[Scribbler]

@vulture

Scribbler, he is not a '“rescue” or “upgrade” horse. His last owner had him for a summer and he was a really great horse, he must have been professionally trained from the second to last owner before me. Although, my mother bought him as a surprise for me when I was about 11. I was very inexperienced and had no trainer or guidance at all. I have always read up on horses, even in elementary school, so I was going off my research. I stil,l to this day, do research constantly. He was a really nice, trained horse. I was inexperienced with on-hand care and handling and had no idea what I was doing. I pretty much “untrained” him. After years of work and riding, he learned a way that was easy for both of us. With riding, I really didn’t have to do anything besides look where I was going and tell him the pace to go. He had full trust in me. He is an amazing horse and he is not pushy on the ground, I believe he lost trust in me after I took him away from his old barn and herd.

I was way past over worried about him when I made the original post and desperately wanted help. I have now calmed down and decided to simply talk to the trainer and barn manager to decide what to do. I still believe that a horse and rider/owner should be a team though. My horse and I are a great team, he would follow me anywhere and listen to what I say, unless he was uncomfortable or really didn’t want to do it, then I wouldn’t make him. I feel like you guys are only looking at one side of this, as me being inexperienced. I may be inexperienced at parts of this, but I still know what I’m doing after having him for so many years and searching for as long as I can remember. Moving him to a new barn so unexpectedly made him stressed and after looking into it, the probably made him hold on to the new horses because he doesn’t believe he will be brought back to them when someone takes him away.

I understand there are incredible and respectable horse people on this board. Although, my horse is different than theirs as he is more of a companion/liberty horse than a high-class show jumper or anything of the sort. He is not much of a riding horse anymore, I don’t really ride anymore besides my lessons, which is her horse that I ride.

I appreciate all the help, I really do but I feel more attacked than anything. I may not be a professional horse rider or an olympic level rider, but I know what is best for my horse and I, and that does not include people telling me I need to boss my horse around like he is some machine I bought to make money off of. Again, I appreciate the help, but I no longer need tips or advice any longer. I am no kid that bought a pony because it was pretty, nor am I such an inexperienced equestrian that I don’t know what liberty work really is. Liberty is a work in progress for me, I am not trying to say I am a pro at it, I am still training my horse with it.

There was a quote I’ve heard, something along the lines of “Enjoy your job and you’ll never have to work a day in your life,” so why should it be any different for a horse?

Thank you,
V

So then where into this narrative does this fit, OPs mother bought her this horse when she was 11? If the OP has only had the horse two years the OP is either 13 or isn’t in enough contact with reality to keep her fantasies straight.