Dani Waldman admits to never turning out horses

[Peggy]

There are places in the US where extensive turnout is not feasible due to lack of land. And grass turnout is prohibitive due to limited water (rain and irrigation). Any boarding stable I’ve been at (ridden at or had a horse at) horses either got turned out by their owners while they were on the property or by barn workers on a pretty rigid schedule. You do have to be diligent about getting horses out every day.

Having seen what I think was the original post that prompted Dani’s response, IMHO it would have been more appropriate to suggest appropriate leg protection to use rather than to suggest avoiding the problem by not turning out.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I’ve never lived on the West Coast, or ridden there. Over the years I’ve seen posters comment on how turnout as we think of it on the East Coast and Midwest just isn’t feasible in the West, given the land situation. I understand why most paddocks are dirt rather than grass out there, because of the lack of rain. But is it because of the expense and layout of the land that barn routines are so different?

[Caligirl83]

Ahhhhhh I can’t figure out how to quote on my mobile phone, but in a nutshell yes to all the reasons above why turnout in coastal suburban or urban horse boarding facilities in southern California and the Bay Area is limited. At some facilities, the only place to turnout is the riding arena after hours which may or may not be allowed by barn policy.

I firmly believe in turnout. But I have worked at enough stables in a variety of geographical regions to not judge somebody else’s context. I’ve seen abused horses living in pastures or stalls, and well loved well cared for horses living in both extremes or a combo.

Frankly, if you have access to 24/7 turnout you are lucky and privileged, and live in a place with low property taxes or own/ lease a lot of land. That is rarely going to be coastal California or an urban boarding facility.

My two cents.

[mmeqcenter]

Yes, yes, we are all well aware that there are locations all over the world that make turnout in large pastures difficult, if not impossible.
I would argue that, probably horse farms shouldn’t exist in those areas. Humans didn’t build those types of facilities for the benefit of the horses, they built them for their own convenience.
And let’s also note, there’s plenty of facilities in various locations that DO have plenty of pasture/paddock/turnout space available, and they simply don’t use it. I’ve boarded at those facilities, I drive by others regularly. It’s absurd.

However, when I say “turnout” is a hill I’ll die on, I don’t necessarily mean it must be 24/7 on a 10-acre grass field. I mean that horses absolutely deserve, should have, must have, the ability to move freely in a space much bigger than a 12’x12’ box. What size should that space be? Well, there’s various limited studies out there. I’ve seen recommendations of a minimum 30’x30’, minimum 15’x30’, minimum 60’x60’, etc., there is no one magical number. Personally, I’d say at least a minimum of 60’x60’.
I have absolutely zero cares if their “turnout” includes access to grass, assuming they’re being fed appropriate amounts of hay and grain to maintain a healthy BCS.

[vxf111]

This is all so subjective. I wouldn’t keep horses in an arid climate without grass no matter how large their space to move was. That’s why it’s not possible to set one standard of horsecare that fits all people and all situations.

[joiedevie99]

@Tha_Ridge

But as others have already said, it is extremely common in Europe (the UK excepted) for horses to not go out. These horses are very fit horses and they aren’t trapped in their stalls 23 hours a day—most are ridden twice a day, spend time on the walker, get hand-grazed, and so on.

Agreed. Full disclosure: I like turnout. All of mine have turnout daily. I’ve even put a few FEI horses in group turnout to get them a few extra hours. That said, there are plenty of horses in Europe doing just fine without turnout. It takes more resources, both capital and human, then most mid-level barns have - walkers, treadmills, working students to hack and lunge horses, grooms to hand graze horses, etc.

[NancyM]

That is not my experience.

[Texarkana]

@vxf111

This is all so subjective. I wouldn’t keep horses in an arid climate without grass no matter how large their space to move was. That’s why it’s not possible to set on standard of horsecare that fits all people and all situations.

On the flip side, a lot of people in arid climates say their horses thrive thanks to fewer bothersome bugs (flies, ticks, etc.) and no high sugar grasses. I have never totally understood how and why hay in arid climates is similarly priced to the cost in grassy climates, but that’s what I’ve been told. And the quality is often better due to irrigation and the ability to thoroughly dry it before baling in the arid environment.

I’m not trying to be argumentative. I totally agree with you that this is a very subjective topic. I’m with @mmeqcenter that my definition of “turnout” means to be able to move freely in a space larger than a stall for an extended period of time.

I knew of someone who kept up to 12 horses on less than 1/4 of an acre in the middle of a city. Even she managed to provide several hours of turnout a day in a large pen. If turnout is a priority, there are ways it can be accomplished. Unfortunately a lot of people build a business model on the idea of “no turnout,” sometimes for reasons beyond their control like economic forces, other times because it just isn’t a priority.

[punchy]

So personally, yeah, turnout daily is a must for my horses. I’ve known some horses on the track for long stretches of time without turnout, but they usually get some time off every now and then, and their careers tends to be shorter anyways, so it’s rare to have one not turned out for years. I’d be curious to know whether her horses don’t get turnout for the entire time she has them, years and years, or if they don’t get turnout for a season and then they get a letdown and some farm time. Sounds like they don’t get any let down time, which I disagree with.

I also think that she shouldn’t be giving advice to younger people about how to manage horses. Her horses may not be getting turned out, but their living in a clean, airy, light, windowed barn with fans, lots of exercise, lots of attention, hand grazing, etc., which minimizes the impact of no turnout. The person asking her advice is not likely to have access to all that; so many horses sitting around in dark barns in 10x10 stalls with 23 hours of nothing.

[gertie06]

Gawd, this just makes my blood boil. Horses are NOT on this earth to be our playthings. It’s our responsibility to care for them correctly and a privilege to ride them. Whenever we start prioritizing riding over care, that’s humanity at its most selfish.

[Tha_Ridge]

@joiedevie99

It takes more resources, both capital and human, then most mid-level barns have - walkers, treadmills, working students to hack and lunge horses, grooms to hand graze horses, etc.

And if you wanna really go down the rabbit hole, Europe is way further along with providing this—their barns don’t depend on underpaid, underappreciated workers the same way ours do. So, yeah, if a 1.60m jumper living in the lap of luxury in Belgium doesn’t get to go outside, I’m not really going to lose that much sleep over it, knowing what the rest of its program is probably like. Little Sarah’s 2’6" horse in LA is more problematic to me.

[Texarkana]

@punchy

I’ve known some horses on the track for long stretches of time without turnout, but they usually get some time off every now and then, and their careers tends to be shorter anyways, so it’s rare to have one not turned out for years

Plus the track is a different beast than a show barn.

At just about every track, you have paid hot walkers who do nothing but walk horses all morning (and sometimes in the afternoon). Horses are out of their stall training just about every single day, and most of the time that training is a lot more intense than anything even a grand prix jumper does.

While I wouldn’t say regular turnout is widespread in racing, the benefits are appreciated now more than ever. Just about all of the top tier operations have found ways to either create regular turnout or create more movement for their horses, whether it be turnout in small round pens, or use of equicizers and pools, or just hotwalkers taking the horses out to graze on a strip of grass in the afternoon. It’s one of the advantages that sets the big operations apart from the small stables lacking in manpower and resources to get their horses out when stabled on the backside.

[LSBC]

I saw some people tag Tiffany Foster on her original instagram post, and Tiffany said she turned her FEI horses out. I’ve also known horses who HATE to be outside (they are few and far between) and they can only last about an hour before they are ready to jump the fence to come back inside, but denying them turnout all together I think would be unfair. I ride at a barn with multiple six figure show horses and they all get turnout. Some of them we do worry they will jump the fence and peace out, but they’re watched carefully.

I hate to say it, but I think Dani invites a lot of this “hate” by posting controversial things on her Instagram and then refusing to cite her sources. She singles herself out already in a very traditionalist sport: feathers, refusal to wear breeches, and I’ve never seen someone ride in a fishnet top before. I find that her uniqueness makes it easier for people to call her out because she is not a “typical” show jumper in a traditional sport. I think that is on us (or the rest of us in the sport) sometimes for being so rigid in our beliefs.

[blue_heron]

It is my experience that the race horse industry is such that animals are disposable and are not overly concerned with their soundness past ~4 years. My four year old isn’t nearly developed enough to do 3rd level + dressage or jump more than 2’3", so an OTTB isn’t my first choice for my purposes. Obviously many disagree with me but truly sound OTTB in their late teens are the exception.

[Ghazzu]

@vxf111

This is all so subjective. I wouldn’t keep horses in an arid climate without grass no matter how large their space to move was. That’s why it’s not possible to set on standard of horsecare that fits all people and all situations.

Guess that rules out desert-bred Arabs for you!

[Moneypitt]

Dear Dani

You no longer need to wear bright colored feathers in your hair or dye your hair crazy colors for attention.

Just write something about horses that a bunch of Karen’s don’t agree with on social media.

Attention for days.

Yours truly
Moneypitt

PS I don’t have Instagram so I missed out.

[Equkelly]

I’ll say it again, the only reason this is even “controversial” is because we’ve let it be normalized and it never should have been.

[Peggy]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

I’ve never lived on the West Coast, or ridden there. Over the years I’ve seen posters comment on how turnout as we think of it on the East Coast and Midwest just isn’t feasible in the West, given the land situation. I understand why most paddocks are dirt rather than grass out there, because of the lack of rain. But is it because of the expense and layout of the land that barn routines are so different?

I think it’s a mixture of land, cost, and tradition. I’ve been riding at barns in Southern California for over fifty years so have some historical context.

1. Land is expensive out here.
2. Water is scarce and expensive.
3. The greater LA area is large and that was always the case. But, a lot of it was suburban (72 suburbs in search of a city, to misquote Dorothy Parker) or even pretty rural. There were pockets of farmland or open space in the San Fernando Valley, Culver City, Cerritos (Dutch dairy darners settled here), Compton, and more. Playa Vista was a part wetland and part celery fields. People kept horses in these pockets, some larger than others. So even when there was land, there wasn’t a lot of it. Over time, the suburbs and city closed in. But people continued to keep horses.
4. I think there is a different mindset about keeping horses. Maybe it comes from how many of us grew up riding horses. I suspect it goes back even further. But you grow up without a lot of land and having limited access to turnout, and that becomes normalized. So, yes, IMHO, there is a different culture of horse keeping, more like the urban areas of the East Coast.
5. The pastures of my youth (Thousand Oaks area, before houses) were pretty rugged affairs, probably put in with cattle in mind. Barbed wire fencing, somewhat maintained. Crappy footing when it did rain. Dusty when it didn’t. If that is your pasture then that is your perception of pasture.
6. People recognize the situation and, by and large, are good about getting horses out every day, spreading out feedings, and providing some time in turnout.

[GPjumper]

Not that this is any better, but at one point she commented to use either a small medical paddock or a very large pasture. She felt the midsized paddocks caused more injuries.
Coming from a rehabber perspective, so take it for what’s it’s worth, I’ve the most catastrophic injuries come horses crashing through fencing in those sized paddocks. It’s much easier to rest a suspensory than to deal with the surgeries and scar tissue that comes from a horse crashing through a fence.
Personally, I turn mine out on big pastures, but I can see the appeal for the show world to use small/medical sized paddocks if anything. Most of these show horses are not just sitting in stalls for 23 hours a day. They are hand walked/use the treadmill/hand grazed throughout the day.
Dani is also based in Europe. I have to wonder if her stalls have run outs like many European barns do.

[CHT]

I think it is more than just turn out. Horses deserve to be able to allo groom/socialize with other horses (even if just over a low stall wall). The idea that horses (a herd animal) should be kept in basically solitary confinement is disheartening. Getting out to stretch their legs attached to a human does not give them the basic needs of companionship that a herd animal is naturally driven to crave.

The fact that some horses do not like turn out, is a sign of the damage already done. This is obviously not natural behaviour for HORSES to not like to be outside, and could be likened to the fear a person held in captivity/prisoner feels when first let out into society, particularly looking at studies done out of prisons where prisoners aren’t given time “in the yard”. They get so used to four walls and a ceiling, they have trouble to adapting to larger spaces.

(when I spent time in Europe, the horses in the villages I was in, lived in their yard 6 days a week, and then led to a field for two nights/one day of pasture time - I think this was left over from when work horses worked 5-6 days a week and then one day fully off with turnout?)