Dare I ask, critique my jumping video!

[beau159]

I have been going back and forth on posting or not but I’m just going to do it. You don’t learn if you don’t put yourself out there!

In September, I had the great pleasure to go to my very first hunter/jumper show! (I am in my 30’s, btw). I have ridden Western most of my life but I’ve been taking sporadic English lessons as an adult and I love to have something different for my horses to do. My prime discipline is barrel racing, but I also like to show. I like my horses to be broke and well-rounded with good minds.

There was a great turnout for this first HJ show, so I hope my local saddle club continues to do one every year (or maybe even a couple a year). There normally aren’t any English events to go to, except for HUS or HSE at a few local shows or AQHA in my area; and certainly no jumping shows.

This video is from my second class of the day, equitation over fences for the crossrails division. I am sorry for the fragmented video; my camera was on the fritz. I also took the first jump the wrong way, which was my mistake so of course we were DQ’ed. :no: I remember thinking for the second fence that gee this seems like a funny angle… facepalm… and that was why!! The prior class was Working Hunter, which my horse placed 2nd out of a field of about 17. Then he took 1st in Hunter under Saddle, and we took 2nd in Equitation on the Flat, and ended up with Grand Champion for the crossrails division. That was really cool and unexpected! It never even crossed my mind that we would be in contention for that. My horse is 9 years old, and this was his first jumping show. We had taken one lesson about a month prior on a full jumping course with one of the trainers that I take lessons with; otherwise our jumping has been very few and far between this year. It just was not a priority this year. I am hoping to do some more lessons over the winter, and build jumps that I can practice with at home next year so we can continue to work on it.

This video is from the next division up, which was 18 inches I believe, for Working Hunter. Unfortunately he did have his very first refusal but it wasn’t a shocker since he was very unsure of the lattice-type jumps in our warm-up. He’s never jumped over anything like that before. He’s more of a looky-type horse anyway and I know they just looked scary to him. I did not get it on video, but he did the next class Equitation over Fences beautifully and cleared that jump no problem, without hesitation.

A few pictures from our courses:
Shotgun 1
Shotgun 2
Shotgun 3
Shotgun 4
Shotgun 5

I know that I am far, far from perfect with my limited jumping experience and that I am sometimes jumping ahead, or behind, and sometimes have chicken arms. :o This show, I just really focused on counting my strides in my head to keep an even pace, and making sure I LOOKED UP straight ahead. Afterwards, I realize I need to also look where we are going (and not just straight ahead) so that he will land on the correct lead to approach the next jump in the pattern. We just started working more on flying lead changes this year (Western) so I will need to work on it for an English as well. He’s getting more solid. I mostly just tried my darndest to stay out of his way and let him work and do his job.

So looking for any and all advice on things I am doing wrong and/or things I can/should be working on, that you see I’m doing in the videos or in the pictures. Like if I am consistently jumping ahead, or behind, or whatever it may be. Or my hands not in the right place. Or my leg behind me. Etc. I don’t think I did anything wrong on his one refusal (please correct me if I am wrong) but I wonder if I could have done more to help him. I’ll be continuing my sporadic lessons with my trainers but more eyes can’t hurt.

And to end my story, I had actually had my grey horse entered in the next division. But he was obviously beyond tired by this point and had done so well. So he was done for the day. I made a very hasty decision to hop on my other horse that had been standing tied to the trailer all day, for moral support. He’s a 14-year-old horse that I have done some itty bitty jumps on once in a while. I threw some braids into his hair, and got him in quickly for the warm up for the 2 foot class. I showed him a few jumps, and he seemed to understand what we were doing. And HOLY SMOKES did we have a blast!!! Mind you, this horse has NEVER done a full jumping course in his life. And he flew over them like he’s done it a million times before! He enjoyed it way too much. I’m so sad I didn’t snag anyone to get a video of us. So I’ve realized that he probably needs to be my main jumping horse, LOL.

He won the Grand Champion for the 2 foot division out of a field of about 9. I about fell over when they announced that. Not bad for a spur-of-the-moment decision.

But I was able to get some sweet pictures.
Red 1
Red 2
Red 3
Red 4
Red 5
Red 6

I think I sat down too soon in the air for Picture 6, and am behind him a bit. I feel like I took off behind him on Picture 5 so that is probably why.

So of course I don’t have video for him, but please critique the photos on things I seem to be consistently doing wrong.

[Moderator_1]

Bumping for the OP because this post was stuck in the spam filter overnight.

[endlessclimb]

I love Red, what a game dude. And I love Shotgun as well. And I love that you get your horses out to do many things.

For the refusal, I think you could have prevented it if you had a little more contact and sat down a little deeper to be able to feel that left shoulder saying “nope”. That said, with a young guy, it’s totally ok to do some scratch and sniff jumping so they learn it’s no big deal and they aren’t going to get spanked for being scared. Shorten your reins and get your hands out in front of you more between fences, and you should be able to feel that “eeeehhhhh I’m not feeling the next one ma” feeling a bit sooner and you might have a chance of talking him into it.

Next thing, which is something I’m really working hard to nip myself, is pinching with the knee. This is what’s causing your lower leg to slide back over the fence. What’s helping me right now is REALLY focusing on the flat to borderline have AIR between my knee and the saddle, which makes my grip shift to my upper/mid calf - do this when posting, when in two point, everything. Deep heels, long calves, and knee loose. Upon approaching a pole or a jump, my brain often shuts off and I revert back to the knee/thigh. What helps me then is to mentally think I’m trying to show the bottom of my boots to something 5 strides after the jump. Or, like I’m trying to put my heels on the horses shoulders. Anything to stop that reversion back to the knee.

Overall, you guys look like you’re having a total blast and this whole post is awesome. Go you!

[ajfager]

Oh so fun! What cuties you have!

As endlessclimb said, you pinch with your knee a bit. When you do that, you’re creating a pivot point right at the knee joint so when your upper body goes forward, your lower leg goes back. What you want instead is a supporting lower leg that helps keep you balanced and secure, even when your butt is out of the saddle. My current trainer has me ride in two point tons - walk, trot, canter. The more two point you can do, the better! When you feel good doing that, then work on transitioning between two point, light seat, full seat and driving seat (maybe not driving seat at a trot lol) and make sure you’re practicing all the different variations - two point to driving, driving to light, light to full, full to two point, etc. To build balance in horses we work on gait transitions - to build balance in riders we work on position transitions. As you’re doing these, try to remember to not kick your lower leg away from the horse.

I’d also work on developing a little more contact. As someone who also grew up riding western/HUS learning to have contact, REAL contact, definitely took some time. Working on a long rein makes it less punishing for your horse if you mess up, but it also can make it more difficult to set your horse up for success and increases the likelihood of a “weird” jump that throws you out of the saddle or leaves you behind. At this height, you really don’t need a crazy position over the fences (I actually think you do a great job of not exaggerating your position unnecessarily), but since you’re still learning, I’d try to put my hands a little further forward to prevent accidentally grabbing the mouth.

Shortening your reins and helping balance into a better quality canter will help make your trip a little smoother I think. Over ground rails, if you notice that you’re consistently “splitting” the rail with the front legs then your canter is a little strung out. As the canter improves and they put less weight on the forehand, you’ll have a better ability to get both front legs across the rail in one stride and “jump” it, even if the distance isn’t quite perfect.

For your own critiques in the meantime, a rough litmus test I use to gauge jumping position is if I can take the horse out from under the rider and set them on the ground as is, will the rider fall over? It’s not flawless, but if I think the rider would stay standing, then they’re probably jumping pretty well. If they look like they’re going to tip over, there’s probably something they need to improve! If you watch videos of Beezie Madden and pause over every fence (you can use , and . to go frame by frame) you’ll notice very quickly that she almost ALWAYS passes my litmus test, even over enormous fences.

I know I picked at a lot of things, but honestly, this is a GREAT first go! Your boys sound like such sweet horses and at the end of the day, if you’re all happy, healthy and having fun then just keep getting out there and doing your thing

[Mac123]

Good for you - for posting these and for doing so many things with your horses!

The main thing I’d have you work on is where your weight is. In Western, probably 90% of the weight is in the seat, and the legs just carry down either side. While the heel should be lowered, there isn’t weight in the leg. In true hunter/jumper form, the weight of the rider is anchored in the leg - about 70% down into the leg and just 30% in the seat. That’s what allows us to easily get out of the saddle into the jumping position. If you look at picture 5 on Red (and he is ADORABLE), you technically have really good position, but you can tell that you’re holding your weight in your knee and thigh and hand.

This alone will go a long way toward fixing your main issues - the tendency to pinch the knee or get left behind or jump ahead sometimes.

To really practice your hunter/jumper position, spend some time in two-point, which is the jumping position, and let your weight sink down, down, down into the heel. Then as you sink back into the saddle, keep the weight down in your leg. Think about your crotch kissing the saddle, not smushing it.

Hunter Jumper https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=…AAAAAdAAAAABAD
English Pleasure https://www.pinterest.com/pin/21532904442184554/

This is just a trot photo but you can see the difference in where the weight is seated - and how that would transfer over to the jumping position.

Here’s a jumping photo:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/319263061080182293/

[ajfager]

@Mac123 I don’t think your links worked correctly - I could only get to the Hunter Jumper photo, and the others just redirected me to facebook pages (presumably the pages of whoever was in the photo you were trying to link).

[Mac123]

@ajfager Thanks - I fixed them!

[beau159]

Wonderful feedback everyone, thank you! Exactly what I was looking for.

@endlessclimb

For the refusal, I think you could have prevented it if you had a little more contact and sat down a little deeper to be able to feel that left shoulder saying “nope”. That said, with a young guy, it’s totally ok to do some scratch and sniff jumping so they learn it’s no big deal and they aren’t going to get spanked for being scared. Shorten your reins and get your hands out in front of you more between fences, and you should be able to feel that “eeeehhhhh I’m not feeling the next one ma” feeling a bit sooner and you might have a chance of talking him into it.

Next thing, which is something I’m really working hard to nip myself, is pinching with the knee. This is what’s causing your lower leg to slide back over the fence. What’s helping me right now is REALLY focusing on the flat to borderline have AIR between my knee and the saddle, which makes my grip shift to my upper/mid calf - do this when posting, when in two point, everything. Deep heels, long calves, and knee loose. Upon approaching a pole or a jump, my brain often shuts off and I revert back to the knee/thigh. What helps me then is to mentally think I’m trying to show the bottom of my boots to something 5 strides after the jump. Or, like I’m trying to put my heels on the horses shoulders. Anything to stop that reversion back to the knee.

I see what everyone means with the “pinching at the knee” concept. There were a few jumps with my Red (not on video) where I felt unstable coming down from the jump and like I lost my lower leg. I am sure that is what happened and it makes sense in my mind now about what I did wrong, and what I can focus on to fix it in the future. God bless him being a saint and taking care of my mistakes!

I see what you mean on sitting deeper in case of refusal. I will say that I seem to struggle with rein length on my grey. He naturally has a low headset and sometimes I find myself “running out of rein” if he decides to get really long and low. Of course, part of my Western background might hurt with that because I am not used to having my hands more up on the neck. But I know that is why I’m doing the chicken arm thing sometimes, because I’m putting my elbows out in order to pick up the slack on the reins. When I just need to have the correct rein length to begin with.

@ajfager

As endlessclimb said, you pinch with your knee a bit. When you do that, you’re creating a pivot point right at the knee joint so when your upper body goes forward, your lower leg goes back. What you want instead is a supporting lower leg that helps keep you balanced and secure, even when your butt is out of the saddle. My current trainer has me ride in two point tons - walk, trot, canter. The more two point you can do, the better! When you feel good doing that, then work on transitioning between two point, light seat, full seat and driving seat (maybe not driving seat at a trot lol) and make sure you’re practicing all the different variations - two point to driving, driving to light, light to full, full to two point, etc. To build balance in horses we work on gait transitions - to build balance in riders we work on position transitions. As you’re doing these, try to remember to not kick your lower leg away from the horse.

I’d also work on developing a little more contact. As someone who also grew up riding western/HUS learning to have contact, REAL contact, definitely took some time. Working on a long rein makes it less punishing for your horse if you mess up, but it also can make it more difficult to set your horse up for success and increases the likelihood of a “weird” jump that throws you out of the saddle or leaves you behind. At this height, you really don’t need a crazy position over the fences (I actually think you do a great job of not exaggerating your position unnecessarily), but since you’re still learning, I’d try to put my hands a little further forward to prevent accidentally grabbing the mouth.

Yes I felt like sometimes my legs were too far away from the horse (lateral) which I suppose is the other thing that happens with the pinching of the knee. That makes sense. And yes, contact is difficult for me with the Western background!! I’m always having to mentally keep track of that and remind myself.

@ajfager

Shortening your reins and helping balance into a better quality canter will help make your trip a little smoother I think. Over ground rails, if you notice that you’re consistently “splitting” the rail with the front legs then your canter is a little strung out. As the canter improves and they put less weight on the forehand, you’ll have a better ability to get both front legs across the rail in one stride and “jump” it, even if the distance isn’t quite perfect.

Tell me more about this. What exactly is splitting the front legs? When the horse’s legs aren’t even going over the jump, and more like they are still in a canter?

@ajfager

For your own critiques in the meantime, a rough litmus test I use to gauge jumping position is if I can take the horse out from under the rider and set them on the ground as is, will the rider fall over? It’s not flawless, but if I think the rider would stay standing, then they’re probably jumping pretty well. If they look like they’re going to tip over, there’s probably something they need to improve! If you watch videos of Beezie Madden and pause over every fence (you can use , and . to go frame by frame) you’ll notice very quickly that she almost ALWAYS passes my litmus test, even over enormous fences.

I know I picked at a lot of things, but honestly, this is a GREAT first go! Your boys sound like such sweet horses and at the end of the day, if you’re all happy, healthy and having fun then just keep getting out there and doing your thing

Yes, I have been told this before by my trainer and it is something I evaluate on myself when I look at my pictures and my videos. It’s a really good benchmark to know if you were balanced over the fence if you “remove the horse”.

And please, pick away! The feedback is great.

@Mac123

The main thing I’d have you work on is where your weight is. In Western, probably 90% of the weight is in the seat, and the legs just carry down either side. While the heel should be lowered, there isn’t weight in the leg. In true hunter/jumper form, the weight of the rider is anchored in the leg - about 70% down into the leg and just 30% in the seat. That’s what allows us to easily get out of the saddle into the jumping position. If you look at picture 5 on Red (and he is ADORABLE), you technically have really good position, but you can tell that you’re holding your weight in your knee and thigh and hand.

I agree on picture 5 with Red that my position can be much improved! It’s good to put into words what you see. I would have probably simply said I was “behind” b/c if we remove him from the picture, I would probably tip over backwards. So feedback on that picture is I need to get more weight in the heels, and do not pinch at the knee? (and don’t get behind, LOL)

And yes, I need to spend more time in two-point!!!

[gertie06]

I think Red should come live with me ;). What a boy to be that game.

[SFVine]

I just stopped in to say what nice (and handsome!) boys you have! Red is so cute over those jumps and I think Shotgun has potential as well! I think the most important things have been covered already. With more practice and some tweaking that others have mentioned, your courses will become more fluid. I love that you expose them to so many different disciplines!

[Mondo]

Agree with previous comments 100%. I would add that in the very first photo on the grey, you are jumping ahead of him - nearly in front of your saddle. You could do more work without irons to prevent that. Also, spend some time in 2 point (half seat, whatever they call it these days) in hand gallop around the arena, no jumps. You want to get used to feeling the weight in your heels, and your whole leg in contact with the horse. That will help with the knee pinching and getting too far out of the saddle when you jump.

[ajfager]

@beau159 By splitting the rail I mean the front legs land on either side of the rail as you’re cantering across it. It can also happen with the hind end, but I see it less frequently.

It took me awhile to find a video clip of what I’m looking for but here’s one: https://youtu.be/A1UZitRLSZw?t=221
Notice how as the horse canters across the pole, the right front makes it over, but the left is still on the take-off side. The horse approached the pole pretty strung out and unbalanced (see the “drifting” to the outside) and as such couldn’t make the conscious effort to make it over the rail in one smooth stride.

Now watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g07V3Z-Y6gM&ab_channel=MarilynnDawson

Notice how when she starts cantering over the ground rail, even though it’s just a rail on the ground, her horse makes an effort to actually “jump” it? Even when the stride isn’t perfect, the horse has enough balance and energy in the canter to rock back and make the extra effort to get both front legs over the rail in one step instead of just letting their feet fall wherever.

https://youtu.be/4TxhrsNInPQ?t=29 This horse isn’t making such an obvious jumping effort, but you can still see how even though the horse’s stride is slightly too short as they enter the grid, the horse still continues to make the effort to jump each rail in the grid without getting so unbalanced they had to split a rail to catch themselves.

Set a rail on the ground and canter over it counting 1, 2, 3, jump. When you say “3”, all 4 feet should be on the takeoff side of the rail. When you say “jump”, the front feet should be on the landing side, with the hind end on the takeoff side. If you get to the rail and you’re not sure if it should have counted as “3” or “jump”, you probably split it.

[SillyHorse]

In addition to the helpful advice you’ve received, I’d suggest that you strengthen your core muscles. You look like you’re struggling to control your body. The bridge exercise is a good one, especially when you engage the core muscles on the way down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPM8icPu6H8

And as everyone already said, two lovely horses. You are a lucky gal!

[beau159]

@gertie06

I think Red should come live with me ;). What a boy to be that game.

I’ve always said I would have gotten rid of him a long time ago if I didn’t like him so much, LOL. (He has so many lameness issues…but boy he does pretty much anything I throw at him.) I really was floored he took to jumping like that! He sure wasn’t holding back! My grey seems to like jumping, but not with the obvious gusto that Red had. He’s such a character.

@SFVine

I just stopped in to say what nice (and handsome!) boys you have! Red is so cute over those jumps and I think Shotgun has potential as well! I think the most important things have been covered already. With more practice and some tweaking that others have mentioned, your courses will become more fluid. I love that you expose them to so many different disciplines!

Thank you, thank you. Honestly, I was thrilled how both of them did for how very little we’ve worked on English this year. We finished building a house and so I finally have the horses at home for the first time. But that means project after project and I barely seemed to have enough time to keep them in good shape, and not as much time devoted to individual things like this. Next year! I’ve got a great spot next to my “arena” that’s decently flat that will work lovely to set up some jumps and leave them up. After I build them, that is. Goals!

Around here, horses are expected to wear many different hats.
Such as being a kid horse.
And a barrel horse.
And a ranch horse both in the show pen and for real life!

[beau159]

@Mondo

Agree with previous comments 100%. I would add that in the very first photo on the grey, you are jumping ahead of him - nearly in front of your saddle. You could do more work without irons to prevent that. Also, spend some time in 2 point (half seat, whatever they call it these days) in hand gallop around the arena, no jumps. You want to get used to feeling the weight in your heels, and your whole leg in contact with the horse. That will help with the knee pinching and getting too far out of the saddle when you jump. :)[IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:“https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/core/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAPABAP///wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==”}[/IMG2]”‹

Yup, my position could be much improved in that picture. :sadsmile:[IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:“https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/core/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAPABAP///wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==”}[/IMG2]”‹

Don’t they call it “No Stirrups November”? I probably should get going on that. :D[IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:“https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/core/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAPABAP///wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==”}[/IMG2]”‹

Yes, absolutely practice staying in 2-point. That is not something I am used to doing. For the Hunter Under Saddle class, I didn’t realize (none of us did, haha) that you are supposed to stay in 2-point when cantering the horse on the rail. I’ve certainly never done that so that is on my list for practice!

@ajfager

@beau159 By splitting the rail I mean the front legs land on either side of the rail as you’re cantering across it. It can also happen with the hind end, but I see it less frequently.

Okay, gotcha.

Now, I do wonder how the variety of things that I do with my horses affects what they do with a simple ground rail. For example, I do also do Western Trail and Ranch Horse Trail. Often, you need to go over a series of poles or logs. Sometimes at the trot. Sometimes at the lope. For Western Trail, they should be correctly spaced so that your horse correctly goes across with their legs in the appropriate spaces (no splitting the rail). However, that is not the case for ranch horse. They will deliberating NOT space them equally to try to simulate “real logs” out on the trail and expecting your horse to place their feet and adjust on the fly basically. Realistically, your horse can and will “split the rail” at the lope if that is what they need to do to get through them seamlessly.

But perhaps a horse will be less likely to do that when it is one single rail on the ground?

So that’s a thought/question when comparing the other things I do with my horses and how they may approach it. But I suppose, as with anything, they can learn what’s “right” for the situation.

@SillyHorse

In addition to the helpful advice you’ve received, I’d suggest that you strengthen your core muscles. You look like you’re struggling to control your body. The bridge exercise is a good one, especially when you engage the core muscles on the way down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPM8icPu6H8

And as everyone already said, two lovely horses. You are a lucky gal!

Winter-time is my time to get back to the gym and planks/bridges are common ones I do a lot!

Honestly, I think my core muscles are just fine but for the other things I am used to doing, LOL. (See? Good core muscles here. ) But I need to develop that same muscle memory and stability for the jumping!! I think I just need to learn where my body needs to be and then to put it there consistently.

[Greys4Days22]

You look great! One thing that could be improved is that in the first video you seem to be sitting deeper than most do in hunters/eq (probably due to your time in the western world!) Figure out your half-seat/two-point, practice by standing up in your stirrups, then bringing yourself back down to the saddle with that length to your leg and then close your hip angle just a bit so you aren’t sitting so much on your butt, more on the front of your seat. Gotta say though, nice riding!

[MHM]

First of all, huge props to you for not only trying something new with your horses, but posting the pictures and videos here for a critique. Very brave on both counts! :lol:

Both of your horses look and sound like tremendously good sports, and they probably enjoy the diversity of their activities.

I agree with the idea of spending a lot of time in the two-point to strengthen your lower leg, and help you find your balance for the correct jumping position. One thing that might help is spending the first 10 or 15 minutes every day on each horse in the two-point, or as long as you can do it as you’re working up to that length of time. But if you start out in the two point as you trot and canter around for the first few minutes, it gives you a chance to lengthen and strengthen your lower leg while your horse warms up, and gives you the opportunity to really get your weight down in your heels in a relaxed way. The idea is to keep your ankle joint soft and allow all the weight to sink through it into your heels, not onto your stirrup iron. It shouldn’t feel stiff or forced. Then when you come out of the two point, try to keep that same stretched, relaxed feeling in your lower leg. Any time you feel like your leg is not in the right place, you can just get back in the two point for a few strides to get your weight back in your heels.

As others have said, it is tremendously helpful to practice over rails on the ground as well as jumps. It can be easier to concentrate on developing the basics when there is no height involved in the obstacle. Another thing to try is to focus on landing with your weight in your heels after the rail or jump. That can help to stabilize your lower leg.

Good luck and have fun!!

[findeight]

See…its not so bad to ask for help on here.

Just one very general observation on the grey…you are riding like an Adult, overthinking and over riding real slow over itty bitty jumps. Most of the “winglish” position problems I think you understand but you dont know where to put your hands and LEAVE them and the horse alone as you do on Red, so I know you can polish that up. Judging by this, thats what created your stop…you did. You were so worried about stride counting and micro managing your leads, you forgot forward and steering. So he said “ what DO you want here”. You also let the lattice fences distract you from keeping his focus on forward, no excuses there, that issue was forward and focus on what you were asking and not lattice.

Hes also very likely not real comfortable with you working way to hard to “ help” him over these little fences, too much body. shoulder with unsteady leg and over release for basically lope over sized jumps. Then too much to put back together landing without going dead in the water. Compare that to you on Red. See what Im talking about?

We Adults tend to “ ride backwards”. when we aren’t sure, we micro micromanage every step. We change our mind 10 times off a corner heading to a fence trying to manufacture a distance from no pace and no straightness to the center and we pick, pick, pick our way to a stop. BTDT, horse cant answer our question when we keep changing it. Stopping is a smarter choice when we put the horse in this position and safer for both then lurching over. He has just told you he’s got a brain and no desire to hurt himself. Very important when the fences get higher and a reason a great may don’t spend too much time really low, no consequences for bad habits that later must be unlearned.

Ride the Grey like Red, he’ll get his confidence from you letting him go freely forward and you just looking ahead and through the fence not, as I suspect, trying to ride him just to the base. Ride him to 3 strides after landing then to after the landing of the following fence(s) . I hope that makes sense.

Make yourself grab some mane and leave your hands there all the way around. Some might use a neck strap but I about strangled the poor horse trying to go back into the rumble seat until I got strong enough to support a proper, strong position and it will take a stronger position then you have now. Work more without irons, dont kill yourself but 1 lap out of every 3 on the flat at each gait will help greatly. So will jumping random single low fences as part of your flatwork most days. Help you both concentrate on straight and forward all the time and not “ OMG a jump”. Its a canter stride. Manage the canter stride and leads and distances will be there. Really. Took me 10 years to really understand that…despite hearing it 50 times a year. Took awhile to soak in after 20 years of Western.

Far as the split front end? Don’t think its that big a deal here. These are so low they are lope overs and don’t require enough of an actual jump or pace to help the horse actually fold and push off. I would really prefer to see you schooling around 2’6”, especially over thise single fences you can work into your daily flatwork. Just a couple treated like a canter stride, help him figure out how to arrange himself and you how to to let him figure it out over a still safe and low jump that will help you both more then really tiny stuff.

Finally, watch some videos of MacLain Ward. Watch his hips, seat and legs. Hes going over big jumps with seat just Inches out of the tack with not even half the release you are trying to give Shotgun over these little fences. Sit still and ride the horse. Will take some hours of work but I know you can do it and learning will compliment his other skills in other things you like to do with him and not be so dramatically different as you are trying to do. Get out of your head and him like you ride Red. If you can do that, he’ll learn be as reliable and safe as Red.

[ajfager]

@beau159

Now, I do wonder how the variety of things that I do with my horses affects what they do with a simple ground rail. For example, I do also do Western Trail and Ranch Horse Trail. Often, you need to go over a series of poles or logs. Sometimes at the trot. Sometimes at the lope. For Western Trail, they should be correctly spaced so that your horse correctly goes across with their legs in the appropriate spaces (no splitting the rail). However, that is not the case for ranch horse. They will deliberating NOT space them equally to try to simulate “real logs” out on the trail and expecting your horse to place their feet and adjust on the fly basically. Realistically, your horse can and will “split the rail” at the lope if that is what they need to do to get through them seamlessly.

But perhaps a horse will be less likely to do that when it is one single rail on the ground?

Maybe others will have a different opinion on this, but unless the rails are WAY off the “correct” distance, most horses with good self-carriage in a balanced canter should still be able to make it through unevenly placed rails without much issue. If the rails are set for one super short stride, and then one super long stride right after, that can unbalance your horse and cause them to split it, but you said it yourself, splitting the rail isn’t really a result of being trained to do so - it was out of necessity to make it through. I’ve sat on horses that I could let run around the ring on a loose rein, heavy on the forehand, and they’d split a single rail every time. Once I asked them to carry themselves better and be more balanced we got over the rail correctly every time. I do think it’s one of those things you’ve really got to see/feel to believe though. I used to feel like it was just “luck” in where you ended up at the rail, but I don’t think that’s true anymore.

Maybe try an experiment for yourself though - set up two sets of 3-4 rails on the ground. Space one set as you normally would, and space the other set an extra 6" and see if you can get your horse to canter through both sets and adjust their stride appropriately. Alternatively, you could set 5-6 rails and gradually increase the distance between them (like from a short stride to a medium stride, or medium to long). If you have trouble adjusting their stride to meet the poles correctly, at the very least, it indicates to me that there’s something you could work on although I’ll defer from making a premature diagnosis without watching it happen.

Ground rails aside though, the rideability of your horse will still be important for jumping as it helps make imperfect distances better. It’s not something that happens overnight, but being able to adjust the length of your horse’s stride quickly and accurately is a critical part of jumping and is something even the pros have to work on regularly. Something to work towards

In any case, people have given you lots of good recommendations! Rome wasn’t built in a day, but if I were you I think I’d choose 1-2 things and focus heavily on them for your next 5 rides or so, and when you feel like you’ve started to get a grip on them, then re-read through this post and pick out another thing or two to work on. Rinse, repeat. When you think you’ve gone through the entire list of suggestions, then start back at the top and just keep improving and layering them together!

[beau159]

@Greys4Days22

You look great! One thing that could be improved is that in the first video you seem to be sitting deeper than most do in hunters/eq (probably due to your time in the western world!)

Possible. I’m used to sitting deep on my pockets going into a barrel turn, LOL. Or sitting deep to ask for a good stop. (My horses don’t do sliding stops; doesn’t work real well with rim shoes on the back feet. But a good solid stop is still in order!)

@Greys4Days22

Figure out your half-seat/two-point, practice by standing up in your stirrups, then bringing yourself back down to the saddle with that length to your leg and then close your hip angle just a bit so you aren’t sitting so much on your butt, more on the front of your seat. Gotta say though, nice riding!

I’ve heard this term before of closing the hip angle, but tell me more exactly what that means. Are you referring to the angle that I am bent at the waist? (If I am describing that correctly.) I can understand what you mean about not sitting on my pockets, but describe more about the hip angle. I’m not sure I’m understanding it right.

@MHM

First of all, huge props to you for not only trying something new with your horses, but posting the pictures and videos here for a critique. Very brave on both counts! :lol:

Brave indeed, haha, Which is why it took me two months to make the post, LOL. The feedback is fantastic though!

@findeight

Just one very general observation on the grey…you are riding like an Adult, overthinking and over riding real slow over itty bitty jumps. Most of the “winglish” position problems I think you understand but you dont know where to put your hands and LEAVE them and the horse alone as you do on Red, so I know you can polish that up. Judging by this, thats what created your stop…you did. You were so worried about stride counting and micro managing your leads, you forgot forward and steering. So he said “ what DO you want here”. You also let the lattice fences distract you from keeping his focus on forward, no excuses there, that issue was forward and focus on what you were asking and not lattice.

Hes also very likely not real comfortable with you working way to hard to “ help” him over these little fences, too much body. shoulder with unsteady leg and over release for basically lope over sized jumps. Then too much to put back together landing without going dead in the water. Compare that to you on Red. See what Im talking about?

You are right; I do ride them differently. Partly, they are quite different personalities. Shotgun in general is more unsure of himself and could be very lazy if I allowed him. Red has always been the confident type, and I never have to ask him twice to go faster. (Usually I’m trying to slow him up.) So I know that that translates over to the jumping. At least in how I ride each one. But I do see your point.

Now when you say “too much body, shoulder … over release”, if I understand you correctly, I’m jumping ahead (trying to “help” him too much) but quite truthfully, I know I do not have a good understanding of the rein release. I probably need to pick up more slack but I know that I do kinda like having a bit extra rein because I can be extra careful never to “catch” their mouth on the way down. But I’m probably “pitching the reins” so to speak and then have to gather everything back up to move onto the next one? Which I can agree with. And right, I didn’t do that with Red (because he was Mr Let’s Do This!).

@findeight

Ride him to 3 strides after landing then to after the landing of the following fence(s) . I hope that makes sense.

Not quite. Meaning, don’t over release and then have to pick up the pieces to head to the next fence?

@findeight

Far as the split front end? Don’t think its that big a deal here. These are so low they are lope overs and don’t require enough of an actual jump or pace to help the horse actually fold and push off. I would really prefer to see you schooling around 2’6”, especially over thise single fences you can work into your daily flatwork. Just a couple treated like a canter stride, help him figure out how to arrange himself and you how to to let him figure it out over a still safe and low jump that will help you both more then really tiny stuff.

I guess thinking about it, 2 feet is about as high as I have ever jumped myself. Clearly Red is easily capable of going higher but I agree this will give me more practice that I need to.