[QUOTE=sm;3004532]
But to ignore existing rules makes it MORE political, especially when someone decides on their own to follow Rule ABC but ignore Rule XYZ. [/QUOTE]
I’m curious SM… which rule, exactly, do you think has been ignored?
none: the rule book was enforced.
Perhaps I would have been more clear had I written, my two word edit in all caps, "O’Connor WAS RIGHT to committ to an overall sense of fairplay to all, especially to the sponsors footing the bill for these riders ---- sponsors require assurances the event is run legally. "
You may have just handed the USEF a (legitimate) lawsuit, lol. wow.
Don’t know how credible this “insider” information is, though, since any “PTB” ought to know that Lisa Wilcox was the first American rider to ever break the FEI top ten, around 2000-2001 as I recall. Quite a big deal at the time, strange that an “insider” wouldn’t know that. Or perhaps they were just banking on you assuming it was correct (and not broadcasting the information publicly, lol).
[QUOTE=flyingchange;3004399]
I agree it appears to be written by a lawyer. Have you guys ever read those commentaries that he writes for COTH? The man can barely write a complete sentence with a complete thought, much less compile a series of logical arguments.[/QUOTE]
Just shows he’s wise enough to know when to use an editor, or a ghost writer, as the case may be. 
Yes, I do think we are that far out of the slot. I hope to be able to eat my words at a later date, but my guess is that it will go to Sweden, Denmark or Britain.
but that exception was that they had to score higher from there than the participants in the qualifiers did here - not that they just got a ‘bye’
The decision to hold the final selections in California - given the fact that the Team will then proceed to Aachen and from there to Hong Kong. Not from a financial standpoint, not from a logistic standpoint and not from the standpoint of having horses traveling excessively. So I would have to presume it had some other basis - perhaps political. We do have more and more FEI riders spending part or full time in Europe training and competing- having the finals on the East Coast to streamline the travel for Team horses would have made better sense. Perhaps there was some pressure from West Coast Dressage people.
I also agree that a score varies from location to location. Even with the very same judges.
Regarding the author of the letter - I also doubt it was penned by O’Connor and therefore it should have been an “official response” addended to the letter.
Oh brother! Sorry! Perhaps I mistyped. Allow me to clarify. MG and horse were the highest ranked (or close to the highest ranked) AMERICAN combo at the time. I believe LW and horse was the top-ranked American combo at the time. And America needed to field a team of the highest ranked combos to be in medal contention. In any event, there were certain circumstances at play at those times. Yes, I’m sure that I handed the USEF a lawsuit! :lol: Because none of the selection criteria or paperwork for this or previous years was ever officially voted on prior to selection trials or available through or on file with the USEF. My insider was a gnome that shows up in the garden once in a while.
Who cares who actually penned the letter?
The President of the United States doesn’t write his own speaches. With those positions of authority it’s well within their right and the best interest of the organization they represent to have a well written, articulate speach or response. If the message is the same, as well as the outcome, it doesn’t matter or make it less authentic, imho.
That was my only comment on this issue. Oh I take that back…and this is just for conjecture, food for thought…not necessarily my opinion. Since it’s the AMERICAN team, wouldn’t it make sense that all team members experienced the same selection standards (i.e. being judged by the same pool of judges as all other possible team members and not in another country all together)?
Granted, some judges do jump the puddle to our little ol’ country to judge, but if the assumption is that the judging isn’t of the same caliber here as it is in Europe, wouldn’t THAT be a more important issue for the future of our US riders that compete internationally representing our country?
I am not favoring one side over the other. I think both have valid points. Personally, I like rules…but only when they apply to everyone and not just who the rulemakers pick and choose to apply them to. If the playing field isn’t equal then there’s no way the results will be either, no matter how you slice it, dice it, multiply it, divide it, politicize it.
crawls back under rock
[QUOTE=eventing-n-SD;3005313]
Granted, some judges do jump the puddle to our little ol’ country to judge, but if the assumption is that the judging isn’t of the same caliber here as it is in Europe, wouldn’t THAT be a more important issue for the future of our US riders that compete internationally representing our country?[/QUOTE]
What a GREAT comment and thought! Don’t crawl away! 
I’m serious. I think this COULD improve out own judging, and thus have a trickle down effect and help with the riding in this country.
[QUOTE=Velvet;3005528]
What a GREAT comment and thought! Don’t crawl away! I’m serious. I think this COULD improve out own judging, and thus have a trickle down effect and help with the riding in this country.[/QUOTE]
so if you make that comment Velvet- why don’t you acknowledge that CH has a leg to stand on- mainly the one that says- how many scores she has collected over the past 2 years that are between 66 and 69 in Germany- which would mean at least a 68-71 average in the US…which would make her a VERY viable competitor- and if she lived here and had the ‘local’ advantage that certain peeps have- I would venture to say that a 72 or 73 wouldn’t be unthinkable at times as scores in the US.
That does not compete with Steffen on Floriano (or Lombardi on a good day) but it sure does compete with Courtney…and currently I don’t see a third alive that has those scores with any consistency…so- what do you say???
[QUOTE=Sabine;3005818]
so if you make that comment Velvet- why don’t you acknowledge that CH has a leg to stand on- mainly the one that says- how many scores she has collected over the past 2 years that are between 66 and 69 in Germany- which would mean at least a 68-71 average in the US…which would make her a VERY viable competitor- and if she lived here and had the ‘local’ advantage that certain peeps have- I would venture to say that a 72 or 73 wouldn’t be unthinkable at times as scores in the US.
That does not compete with Steffen on Floriano (or Lombardi on a good day) but it sure does compete with Courtney…and currently I don’t see a third alive that has those scores with any consistency…so- what do you say???[/QUOTE]
Just playing the devil’s advocate here, once again not choosing sides…because although I’m a dyed in the wool red white and blue American, I do believe in fair play…your statement/question above would be valid IF it was the acceptable standard that the scores in Europe meant more, carried more weight, than the scores here in the US. I doubt that anyone that has the authority to categorically say that judging in Europe is definitively, inarguably more precise and meaningful, AND would stand up and say so. Even if they did, how could you calculate exactly (and fairly) how much to weight the European scores to translate into US scores? Unless two set of judges were present at each ride, US and European, and two sets of scores were permissible, I just don’t see how it would work.
The judging method is inherently subjective, although well defined, the variables are practically immeasurable and with that comes an incalculatable (sic?) margin of error. More importantly, in my opinion, is who holds those who have the power to wield those scores accountable to a world-wide standard? How does that translate into choosing a team to represent your country when two sets of standards are being applied?
I know my comments are pretty far off the mark as far as subject matter goes and I’m not qualified to comment on the judging in Europe since I’ve never shown there. All I know is that I would want the team representing my country to all be held accountable to the same standard as other countries hold their teams accountable to. If our standards are different, then I think there’s where the problem lies.
Seriously, I’m going back under the rock now!
[QUOTE=eventing-n-SD;3005927]
Just playing the devil’s advocate here, once again not choosing sides…because although I’m a dyed in the wool red white and blue American, I do believe in fair play…your statement/question above would be valid IF it was the acceptable standard that the scores in Europe meant more, carried more weight, than the scores here in the US. I doubt that anyone that has the authority to categorically say that judging in Europe is definitively, inarguably more precise and meaningful, AND would stand up and say so. Even if they did, how could you calculate exactly (and fairly) how much to weight the European scores to translate into US scores? Unless two set of judges were present at each ride, US and European, and two sets of scores were permissible, I just don’t see how it would work.
The judging method is inherently subjective, although well defined, the variables are practically immeasurable and with that comes an incalculatable (sic?) margin of error. More importantly, in my opinion, is who holds those who have the power to wield those scores accountable to a world-wide standard? How does that translate into choosing a team to represent your country when two sets of standards are being applied?
I know my comments are pretty far off the mark as far as subject matter goes and I’m not qualified to comment on the judging in Europe since I’ve never shown there. All I know is that I would want the team representing my country to all be held accountable to the same standard as other countries hold their teams accountable to. If our standards are different, then I think there’s where the problem lies.
Seriously, I’m going back under the rock now! :D[/QUOTE]
Don’t hide under the rock, because this is a very valid post and well written. Countries where dressage isn’t fully developed (compaired to Germany and the Netherlands) need judges which give higher scores. In the Netherlands and Germany we have followed the same process the past 35 years. “Keeping dressage alive” . However the foreign riders competing in Europe mostly have a very tough time showing in front of the judges who are mostly judging the top of the world dressage-riders. Furthermore these foreign riders very often have to start at the beginning of the competition, and it’s not a secret that starting at the beginning is not an advantage. Never the less I have a (not based on any scientific study) feeling that tooooooo much rules isn’t a benefit for the best selection procedures.
the Swiss rider made a choice that travel to Hong Kong would not be in the best interest of her horses
CH made a choice that travel to the US would not be in the best interest of her horse (and/or her business)
[QUOTE=Sabine;3005818]
so if you make that comment Velvet- why don’t you acknowledge that CH has a leg to stand on- mainly the one that says- how many scores she has collected over the past 2 years that are between 66 and 69 in Germany- which would mean at least a 68-71 average in the US…which would make her a VERY viable competitor- and if she lived here and had the ‘local’ advantage that certain peeps have- I would venture to say that a 72 or 73 wouldn’t be unthinkable at times as scores in the US.
That does not compete with Steffen on Floriano (or Lombardi on a good day) but it sure does compete with Courtney…and currently I don’t see a third alive that has those scores with any consistency…so- what do you say???[/QUOTE]
I never had a problem with CH’s complaints, when I thought no one had appropriately addressed them. Now I know that they have been addressed, and top scores in Europe are still considered a part of the process. Since I have more information on that front, I disagree even more. At first I agreed with the travel being onerous. After hearing what the vets have said, and past competitors, I’m still see it’s tough, but that most of the teams will all end up in the same boat with tired horses, so the playing field is more level. And I still think that if you want to compete you have to abide by the rules, whether they suck or not for you. It’s a personal choice for trying to make the team. No one HAS to do it.
What I liked about the posting your referring to is that we would then have everyone get all their scores only here in the U.S. Then we wouldn’t have this sort of debate, and it could also positively impact the judging in this country (if we want to become competitive)–and we would potentially improve the judging and riding from the bottom up. Not a bad idea at all.
Your Rules
And I still think that if you want to compete you have to abide by the rules, whether they suck or not for you.
Mrs. Haddad abide by the rules in 2006-Aachen- but did not ride for her team because Leslie Morse had not accepted Haddad to beat her. We were in Verden (your “Selections”) and saw this. Who changed the rules when the incorrect rider makes the team?
[QUOTE=magdelene;3006457]
And I still think that if you want to compete you have to abide by the rules, whether they suck or not for you.
Mrs. Haddad abide by the rules in 2006-Aachen- but did not ride for her team because Leslie Morse had not accepted Haddad to beat her. We were in Verden (your “Selections”) and saw this. Who changed the rules when the incorrect rider makes the team?[/QUOTE]
Excellent questions but I’m sure you will be ignored…
I really liked Velvet’s conclusion that perhaps this will be a step towards improving fairness and quality of judging in the US. I’m all for that, and the logic makes sense to me.
But you can’t get away from the fact that past decisions have been politically motivated and have been done by making exceptions to the rules. Several examples have been stated in this thread. I think this is a situation to watch moving forward. It’s possible that USEF is really trying to embrace what is most fair for horses and competitors both…but that won’t be really clear until we see how the next “exception” is handled.
I used to go to the East Coast in June, to Gladstone, because that was the ONLY location for the Championships, selection trials, etc.
No matter that the insects are as big as dive bombers and suck more blood than Vlad the Impaler. No matter that much of the time, in addition to humidity, there was actual rain, enough that the trials had to be stopped as recently as the year Rociero went East ,warmed up–only to be told there was a one-hour delay.
Etc etc.
And so it came to pass, the West Coast was acknowledged to exist and was permitted to hold trials out here some of the time.
Which is how California came to be chosen for this selection trial.
(and yes, Im giggling at the thought that Hong Kong is probably more like Gladstone than San Juan Capistrano).
I already said this,as have others:
To make an Olympic qualifier, no matter the sport, requires sacrifices.
If CH does not want to follow this process–that is her choice. East Coast riders who are chosen for the trials do not have to fly to the West Coast–that has happened several times.
Consult with several vets, including the USEF vets, make arrangements, fly to California, and compete. The playing field will be at least as level as U.S. riders flying to Europe to compete.
And the reality of U.S. riders in Europe is–our very best do very well, often in individual medal range. Our team riders do as well as team riders on most teams, often enough to put us in team medal contention.
Isn’t this the right time and place ?
Maybe this is the right time and place for the US to throw some fresh meat
into the Olympic dressage arena.:D:lol:
