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Dealing with Refusals

Hunter/Jumper
#61

Honestly, it can be anything. Could be hocks or back. I also think that if you have been working a barefoot horse harder (to make him lose weight), he could easily be footsore, or more sensitive to harder footing. Have you felt his step get shorter? Is he sensitive to hoof testers?

It may also be your ride. Generally, when a horse is able to run by the jump it means you were not steering enough.

Some ideas for the next time your jump: Look past the jump and forget the distance. Just put his nose in the middle, and keep his legs moving no matter what. Also: test your horse’s responsiveness to your leg a couple of times on the way to the jump. He needs to jump forward right now when you say go. Check it out of the corner.

Stopping can’t be an option in your mind or his. Over it or through it.

Frankly, I don’t agree with those who say your horse isn’t built to jump. Maybe not a Grand Prix jumper, but 18"??? Any horse can jump that. Any horse can WALK over that.

Do you know a good trainer that you really trust? If so, I think it would be worth it to have the horse evaluated. A good trainer may have a better idea of whether it’s a training issue or a pain one. If they aren’t willing to do it, at least ask for a vet recommendation.

#62

The point isn’t that the horse CAN’T jump, it is that it will be harder for him. Also, she regularly jumps him 2’6"-2’9" at home. While I know a lot on COTH like to think any horse can jump that easily, it isn’t the case. They may be able to do it for a while, but they aren’t going to hold up to it. I’ve seen it over and over.

It’s like asking me to be a distance runner when I’m better suited to being a sprinter or shot putter or some such. I COULD be a distance runner, but I’ll never be great at it and it will be harder for me.

#63

This is a kid asking for help. Constructive suggestions is what she needs, not crucifixion.

#64

[QUOTE=Zuri;7626446]
This is a kid asking for help. Constructive suggestions is what she needs, not crucifixion.[/QUOTE]

The majority of the responses here are constructive in regard to both the horse and her unfortunate personal situation at the moment. She may or may not agree with the advice as may any reader. If she took it as crucifixion, she wouldn’t have been coming back here for 7 months seeking advice.

#65

[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7625770]

The thing is, it’s not just at shows. It’s even at schooling other places. The common theme with refusals is when I don’t wear spurs, so I think that could be a factor.[/QUOTE]

My mare is very “looky”. She is fine at home but when the scenery changes, she becomes concerned. She is more likely to refuse when not at home. I agree you need flexions but the way I got my mare to stop refusing is I really had to learn to ride her assertively, especially when away from home.

#66

I agree. I’ll take the dissenting opinion here and say that your horse is being a pig and/or it’s pilot error. Get some professional help before this bad behavior becomes a habit that you can’t correct.

#67

It’s not always pain but so many times it is. You’ve got to rule out pain. All people on the list can do is speculate, especially without a video. But at any rate, it would be a kindness to your horse to get him completely checked out and get yourself to a good trainer to see what is going on on your end. Before traveling to a show, or to Ocala to find another horse, I would address the one you already have and get him squared away. I think you mentioned Auburn,AL once before? There are lots of vets in Auburn who graduated from the equine program. They are very well trained and obviously mobile and would do a farm call. I hope you get to the bottom of it before you get another horse. If you call the vet school they could refer you to some equine vets that will travel.

#68

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7626573]
I agree. I’ll take the dissenting opinion here and say that your horse is being a pig and/or it’s pilot error. Get some professional help before this bad behavior becomes a habit that you can’t correct.[/QUOTE]

Horse don’t pack around one day and decide they can’t walk over a crossrail the next with the SAME RIDER because they’re “being a pig.” It’d be one thing is this horse was always evasive (though I’d still ask first if there was a physical reason) but I have never met a horse that goes from compliant to not overnight except for physical issues. Never.

#69

[QUOTE=vxf111;7626645]
Horse don’t pack around one day and decide they can’t walk over a crossrail the next with the SAME RIDER because they’re “being a pig.” It’d be one thing is this horse was always evasive (though I’d still ask first if there was a physical reason) but I have never met a horse that goes from compliant to not overnight except for physical issues. Never.[/QUOTE]

Yes…but if it were pain, why is he jumping fine at home? I schooled him the morning before the show (show started at 7 pm) and he happily popped over some small stuff. It seems to be that he consistently refuses when I’m away from home and not wearing spurs.

I pushed the trip to Ocala so I can work more with him. My trainer thinks the idea of him being in pain is absurd, and she watched him at the show. She says he’s being a pig.

#70

[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7626892]
Yes…but if it were pain, why is he jumping fine at home? I schooled him the morning before the show (show started at 7 pm) and he happily popped over some small stuff. It seems to be that he consistently refuses when I’m away from home and not wearing spurs.

I pushed the trip to Ocala so I can work more with him. My trainer thinks the idea of him being in pain is absurd, and she watched him at the show. She says he’s being a pig.[/QUOTE]

Couldn’t be that he’s already a little stiff and the trailer ride makes him stiffer? But at home he doesn’t stand for 30+ mins before you ride him.

Couldn’t be that the footing is harder/stingier at the show and it makes his feet sore? He is barefoot, and barefoot horses can be sensitive to footing changes.

Couldn’t be that you had already ridden him at home and THEN went to the show, and although he’s sound enough to make it through one jump school in a day-- he was sore by the second? Or that he’s not fit enough for two jump schools?

My money is that he’s stiff/sore at home. But he’s a good egg and knows if he does his job it’s over fairly quickly. He’s stoic and he powers through because his a good QH and that’s what they do. Combine being ridden TWICE in a day with the stiffness of riding on a trailer and your good horse is saying “enough already, I can’t DO THIS” by the time you’re at the show. Cross reference Rug Bug’s anecdotes about keeping a horse sound enough to do A job but not so sound that the workload could be increased.

Jumping at home and then jumping at the show might just be more than he’s capable of.

Unless your trainer flexed the horse and has x-ray/ultrasound/MRI eyes, I am not sure how she can rule out pain just by watching. If vets could do that-- just by watching, no one would have diagnostic tools. :wink: Does she think it’s normal that you have to spur this horse to get him over a crossrail? Really? She thinks that’s normal.

My horse jumped around like a pro and then suddenly was stopping at crossrails. He turned out to have corpra nigra cysts. They don’t just stop cooperating for no good reason. They really don’t. And you should not need spurs to get a horse OVER a crossrail if the horse is sound. A cow can jump a crossrail. Your horse could STEP over. If he needs spurring to play ball… something is really not right.

But it seems like ya’ll know best…

#71

I had a horse that was considerably worse at shows than at home - maybe it was because he knew we always jumped bigger and more at shows, or because the ground was harder there and it hurt more to land, or he was uncomfortable after the trailer ride, or what, he always was worse at shows than he was at home. We thought he was being a pig and kept bringing him back and trying, but it didn’t work.

I always wonder how things would have been different if I had figured out sooner where the pain was and that it was pain, because then maybe we would have been able to fix it before it was too late. As someone who’s been there, it really freaking sucks to feel like you broke your horse because you didn’t listen to what he was telling you.

I think you owe it to him to consider pain. This isn’t a baby without a lot of mileage that shouldn’t be having issues - he’s a middle aged horse that’s ridden in disciplines that are hard on his joints. Whether you want to believe it or not, your horse has wear and tear on his joints and he may need some maintenance to keep going as he is, and that’s normal - you don’t have to be jumping hard for arthritis to develop, it just happens.

Best case scenario, you find nothing wrong and you can move on with the he’s a pig theory. But I think it’s worth it to at least have him looked at by a knowledgeable vet.

#72

Consider that gastric or hindgut ulcers may be contributing to, or be, the problem. I have yet to find a horse in which the clinical signs manifest the same way, but in every horse the ulcers have drastically affected performance.

You mentioned that he is off grass for 12 hours but receives no hay or grain. That means his stomach is empty for a good bit of that time. Horse, unlike humans, produce hydrocholoric acid all the time because they have a digestive system designed for constant grazing. When food is withheld, that acid just sits in the stomach and results in ulcers in most horses. Therefore, all our horses always have grass and/or hay in front of them 24/7.

The most cost effective way to determine if he has ulcers is to administer a tube of Gastrogard or Ulcergard for 5 days–typically you see a difference in behavior within a few days. Then, I usually talk with my veterinarian to decide how to continue with treatment. I don’t use any ulcer supplements for prevention; our guys begin receiving 1/4 tube of Gastro/Ulcergard 2 days before they trailer to a competition and throughout the competition and any time they are in a situation or receiving a medication, such as bute, that can result in stress and gastric inflammation.

Also consider feeding him a ration balancer since he is not receiving any fortified grain.

#73

Couple of thoughts for you -

Try as I might, I have never been able to get my horse to stay sound without shoes. I know you said he tears his shoes off, but that is why there are bell boots. I know horses that live in 'em 24/7. I think I remember you saying that he flexes fetlocks very deep - there are some shoeing options that might help with that.

Second - I know he’s not lame, but neither is my horse when he needs his hocks injected. He just doesn’t work as well. When you are at a show, it’s a different creature than working at home. He’s been in a trailer, you probably ride more, and in a different type of interval - not just schooling or hacking and then back out the pasture, but back to the trailer to stand around until the next class. If he is just a bit sore, this could be making it much worse that day.

Third - I have known a couple of horses that have learned they can get away with crap in the show ring. Friend of mine had to throw away basically a whole show season because her horse figured out that he would not get disciplined in the show ring. She had to re-school him to understand that the rules were the same. Which made for some really crappy results for awhile. But - he got over himself. And now wouldn’t even think of being a pig in the ring.

Which leads to my next thought - if he has become difficult away from home are you getting tense? That will almost inevitably lead to getting a bit in front of the horse when jumping, and if he is quitting, that will really encourage the refusals. If you really want to continue to develop him as a hunter, you might think about having your trainer show him for a couple of shows and see if you can get him past this hump if all the physical possibilities are ruled out.

#74

if he used to be ok at shows, and now he’s not, it is most likely pain. 18" xrails are not difficult and to have to use spurs to get him over them suggests he is having a major problem.
Make it a priority to get him checked out. I suspect that if you call around you can find a proper equine vet who can come TO your barn and do flexions and a basic lameness exam.
Once you have ruled that out you can consider the issue of whether a horse who finds jumping 18" at shows objectionable wants, in any way, to be a horse who jumps at shows for a living.
Many of us have had to face the choice of adjusting our own goals/disciplines, OR finding a much loved horse a different home, because the horse did not want to do the job we wanted him to do.

#75

OP, there are a lot of solutions being offered here by very knowledgeable people. None of them are “put on spurs” (though I have to question any trainer that doesn’t have someone going in the ring to jump without both spurs and a crop–I don’t remember the last time I’ve shown over fences without both of those, it’s as much a part of show attire as gloves and a helmet).

Get a vet out to evaluate the horse that knows something about lameness. Even horse vets will admit that this is not all of their strong suits. There are vets who concentrate on repro, who are good at fixing wounds, and who are freaky good at pinpointing lameness. Find one of the latter; most good vets know what their strong point is and will happily recommend someone else to you who they know is good at the problem you’re having if it’s not their thing.

Get weight off the horse. Not by riding it every day, which is only going to exacerbate any pain issues it might be having. Drop down to 4-5 days a week, and only jump one of them. And certainly don’t do two jump schools in one day!! If you’re also competing at dressage, really focus on the flatwork, it will only help the jumping anyway. Especially work on getting him off the forehand. Put a muzzle on the horse for turnout, and get it a small-hole haynet for when it’s in the barn.

Get 4 shoes on, with bell boots up front if he pulls shoes. That’ll help fix the underrun heels you say he has up front, and provide more support up front and behind. My horse generally gets hind shoes pulled in the winter, and is noticeably happier in the spring when they go back on, to the point that I think this was the last winter they get pulled. I want the horse to be comfortable and happy to work, not worried about guarding a joint or foot.

Get a loading dose of your choice of Adequan/Legend/Pentosan, and put him on a real joint care regiment. If this horse was started as a reiner, he’s been working those joints hard for probably 10 years. They need some help. See what that does for him, and you may be able to put off injecting the joint for a few more years.

Then evaluate your riding. Everyone rides differently in the show ring than they do schooling at home. Get someone to video, sit down and objectively evaluate yourself a few days later, after the emotions have faded. See if you can pinpoint changes between how you’re riding at home versus in the show ring. Make sure you’re RIDING in the show ring and not just being a passenger, because you’re worried about it looking “pretty.”

#76

Wow, lots of suggestions. Who knew so many things could be wrong.

For the record, I did not school him hard at all the morning of the show. It was just WTC both ways then pop over 3 tiny cross rails. I’ve ridden him twice a day quite frequently- trail riding in the morning to build endurance and muscle, jumping or flatworm in the evenings.

At the end of the day, I don’t really have control over the horse. I asked if I could put shoes on. Answer was no. Asked about grazing muzzle. No. Asked if I could take him to equine clinic for lameness evaluation. No. So, there is a limit to what I can do for him.

If need be, I will never jump him again. I have several other project horses I can work on, and of course I’m still shopping for something. This little horse has the biggest heart I’ve ever seen, and I’m sure if he is in pain he’s doing his very best to conceal it and get the job done anyway.

#77

Can we see that video of the show? I think that’s where you’ll find your answer.

I suspect the show environment is causing you to unconsciously change how you ride. This happens to a lot of people. They ride one way at home, but with the excitement if a new situation, they change. You might, for example, find some one with a soft hand at home who locks their arms at a show.

I think you’ll get much better advice if we can “see” what happened.

#78

I agree. While physical pain may be an issue, it could definitely be rider error. What are your coaches’ reasons for his stopping? I know you say you jump him higher at home, but for all we know he could be adding to fences at home and you are a bit tougher there. Maybe he’s had bad experiences from you asking long or short even over small fences and lacks confidence.
None of this is to blame you, but perhaps your coach can offer better advice. I’ve slightly kept up with the thread so wouldn’t mind seeing videos from home and at shows.

#79

My laptop is turned back into my school for reprogramming until Thursday, so I won’t be able to post video until then. I have some video from a couple weeks ago, though.

Turns out it is his hocks. I had the vet look at it and he said we need to go to Tallahassee to gets x-rays and a consultation about starting injections. Until then, he gets a low dose of bute. I know bute can be hard on their stomachs, is there anything I can put him on to counteract that?

I should have known. It’s so unusual for him to refuse. I’m going to get him squared away, and then after 4-H this summer his jumping career is probably over. He can be an adorable dressage horse instead. I’ll either teach my mom’s 6 year old to jump and show him or get something else.

#80

I am glad you are getting to the bottom of it. He’s obviously a really solid character. Good horses like that don’t refuse for no reason and they deserve a little support to keep them going. Says the owner of one bulldoggy, formerly Western, downhill chestnut QH who did the hunters to another…

http://s5.photobucket.com/user/vxf111/media/The%20Son%20Dee%20Times/VeronicaandStoney.jpg.html

I maintained him carefully with good shoeing, good fitness, Adequan, and routine hock injections. I also was thoughtful about what I asked him to do (he never jumped over 2’6 and I was choosy about going to shows with good footing and not doing too many classes). He was sound and going strong packing around into his 20s and only retired because I am too big for him and we ran out of little kids who needed to learn the ropes on a saintly packer. He’s 25 now.

I don’t think I’d throw in the towel. Honestly, I’d take him to the clinic and see what they suggest and follow their instructions. And, if it was me, given the limitations-- I’d hold off on introducing another horse into the mix. Sometimes horses need shoes, and injections, and vet care etc. etc. If that’s a total no-go due to your situation (I am not familiar with your entire back history but that’s what you say)-- I wouldn’t bring another horse, and unknown commodity, into the mix. What if that horse needs shoes, or a grazing muzzle, or additional care? I’d just spend the time/money/energy on getting this horse right. With solid maintence, he can probably go on jumping 2’6 and until you are 100% foot perfect 100% of the time-- you have plenty to keep learning too.

Heing a horseman is a lot more than riding. Anyone can ride. Not everyone is a horseman.

I learned more from my little too-small-Westernglish horse than I learned from most riding instructors.

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