Bute is hard on their stomachs. One thing I do is always give it with food. Alternative would be Previcox. It is not as hard on them. It is a very small dose for a horse. Glad you are getting to the bottom of it.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7627400]
I am glad you are getting to the bottom of it. He’s obviously a really solid character. Good horses like that don’t refuse for no reason and they deserve a little support to keep them going. Says the owner of one bulldoggy, formerly Western, downhill chestnut QH who did the hunters to another…
http://s5.photobucket.com/user/vxf111/media/The%20Son%20Dee%20Times/VeronicaandStoney.jpg.html
I maintained him carefully with good shoeing, good fitness, Adequan, and routine hock injections. I also was thoughtful about what I asked him to do (he never jumped over 2’6 and I was choosy about going to shows with good footing and not doing too many classes). He was sound and going strong packing around into his 20s and only retired because I am too big for him and we ran out of little kids who needed to learn the ropes on a saintly packer. He’s 25 now.
I don’t think I’d throw in the towel. Honestly, I’d take him to the clinic and see what they suggest and follow their instructions. And, if it was me, given the limitations-- I’d hold off on introducing another horse into the mix. Sometimes horses need shoes, and injections, and vet care etc. etc. If that’s a total no-go due to your situation (I am not familiar with your entire back history but that’s what you say)-- I wouldn’t bring another horse, and unknown commodity, into the mix. What if that horse needs shoes, or a grazing muzzle, or additional care? I’d just spend the time/money/energy on getting this horse right. With solid maintence, he can probably go on jumping 2’6 and until you are 100% foot perfect 100% of the time-- you have plenty to keep learning too.
Heing a horseman is a lot more than riding. Anyone can ride. Not everyone is a horseman.
I learned more from my little too-small-Westernglish horse than I learned from most riding instructors.[/QUOTE]
He is a solid character, and I absolutely adore him. The farrier comes tomorrow, and I’m going to ask if I can please put shoes on him. Maybe that will help too. Our farrier does lots of jumpers and dressage horses with hock problems, so he should kow the best thing to do. I would gladly do the shoeing, Adequan, grazing muzzle, hock injections, whatever. He’s only 13, so I want him to have some good years still. I really would like to move up to 3’0", but maybe I can work on mom’s 16.2 hand greenie for that one day.
I do have plenty to learn and he’s a wonderful teacher. He’s so sensitive that he’s taught me to have a dead quiet seat and leg.
I just gave him some bute and he’s in his stall with a foot of shavings and his fans. This evening maybe I could flat him. He’s supposed to go to Tallahassee next week.
Yesterday you said shoes were not possible. Today they are?
Is the problem that you don’t call the shots?
Maybe what needs to happen is a frank sit down with mom/dad/trainer (or whatever /whoever the impediment is) about horse care standards. Or, if it’s money, perhaps a part time job. My eyes google at how much teens can make even babysitting part time.
Only you can do right by the horse you have. Not every horse can live on air and grass and love alone. Especially as they age, they need maintenance. I don’t know whether it’s a mindset/understanding issue or a money issue or something else-- but I’d get that adressed now because you have a nice aging horse who is going to need help to stay as comfortable as possible and he can’t speak for himself. I think you understand that but the key is getting the understanding to translate into action.
Perhaps when you take him to the clinic, have the vet sit down with whoever the impediment is and work the plan out WITH THAT PERSON’S INVOLVEMENT? Or, if it’s financial, get the vet to work up an estimate of costs and you work out how you’ll earn the money to make it happen?
It’s tough not having total control but you’ve got to do what you can to make the right things happen for this horse you care about.
Glad to hear it seems you’ve pinpointed the problem. It’s hard when you have a very stoic horse - some horses won’t let you know they’re in pain until they are really in pain. My mare never took a lame step until she was 15, and then one day she was slightly off. Vet exam and x-rays determined that she has significant arthritis in her knee, which is certainly something that doesn’t develop overnight (the only sign was the slight lameness). I felt awful thinking how long she had been going along, me thinking she was perfectly fine, when all the while she was, at the very least, uncomfortable.
I really hope that you will be able to put a grazing muzzle on your guy. Sometimes horses that are on grass for a limited time will still eat just as much as they did if they were out 24/7 - they “make up” for the missed time on grass.
Shoes also very well might help.
Good luck with him!
[QUOTE=EmJ628;7625219]
I am working with a green older horse too. One thing I have really had to work on myself is my tendency to do the “Hunter hover”. This horse really needs my butt in the tack and to truly be in front of my leg, or he is not confident to the jumps. I had to be very honest with myself about my riding habits and I especially have to watch it at shows or new environments bc I tend to want to pinch with my knee and be up off his back= more weight over his shoulder= sliding stops or run outs. The second I sit back, put my calf on and ride confidently to the other side, he is brave, fun and has zero issues. Check physical issues certainly but it may be a case of your riding changing even in small ways at shows.[/QUOTE]
this!
i have a hard time believing that a horse that you cannot feel any pain with is so hurting that he slams on the brakes at shows, but at home can jump around 2.9ft. i know many school horses that have lameness issues but are able to perform jumping around small courses. they might have some arthritis, so they need a long warm-up etc.
i also have a trainer friend that told me she sees horses in the 2 year time frame. when the horse is first bought, it jumps anything from anywhere, but two years of bad riding, the horse starts stopping. medical is blamed becaue the rider cannot look at themselves to for the cause of the stopping. so they sell the horse with the reasoning that something is medically wrong with the horse and they cannot handle the job anymore.
she said the real reason is bad riding. jumping ahead, horse allowed to be crooked, letting leg off, pulling on horses face. horses get tired of this! you may be very nervous at shows and start letting your leg off and horse takes it as a chance to run out!
my horse is pretty tolerant but i know that my mistakes have caused some problems in the past. when i hit a problem, I go back to basic flatwork. is the horse in front of my leg or behind my leg. does the horse listen to woah and go! is the horse travelling straight. is it travelling on its hind end. If you fix these things first before jumping, you probably will do alot better. if the horse starts stopping again, go back to flat, fix, and try again!
I think you might be on to something with the shoes.
Although his hocks may be bothering him somewhat, I can’t think of too many 13 year olds with his mileage that couldn’t use some injections. However, if didn’t have a history of stopping out at home over bigger jumps, I doubt 18" crossrails would be too much for him today when yesterday he was fine at home.
What might have been different at the show is the footing. If he has underrun heels, as you say - it could be that different footing stung his feet. Underrun heels can cause heel pain and sole pain as the hoof looses its concavity and the sole of the foot makes more contact with the ground. Lots of times stopping can be from front foot pain as well.
Regardless of whether that’s the source of your issue, correcting his underrun heels with good shoeing will only benefit his performance. As they say, no foot, no horse.
Good for you by doing right by him.
Sometimes it’s not anything physical and just simply bad riding. I’d say 100% of the time stopping at a cross rail is bad riding.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7627542]
Yesterday you said shoes were not possible. Today they are?
Is the problem that you don’t call the shots?
Maybe what needs to happen is a frank sit down with mom/dad/trainer (or whatever /whoever the impediment is) about horse care standards. Or, if it’s money, perhaps a part time job. My eyes google at how much teens can make even babysitting part time.
Only you can do right by the horse you have. Not every horse can live on air and grass and love alone. Especially as they age, they need maintenance. I don’t know whether it’s a mindset/understanding issue or a money issue or something else-- but I’d get that adressed now because you have a nice aging horse who is going to need help to stay as comfortable as possible and he can’t speak for himself. I think you understand that but the key is getting the understanding to translate into action.
Perhaps when you take him to the clinic, have the vet sit down with whoever the impediment is and work the plan out WITH THAT PERSON’S INVOLVEMENT? Or, if it’s financial, get the vet to work up an estimate of costs and you work out how you’ll earn the money to make it happen?
It’s tough not having total control but you’ve got to do what you can to make the right things happen for this horse you care about.[/QUOTE]
It’s because when my mom, who controls the horse, heard that his hocks were sore from our vet, started listening to me and thinking about the things we need to do for him. It’s not a money issue.
I understand he needs maintenance and I will do whatever it takes to make sure he gets proper care.
[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7627854]
It’s because when my mom, who controls the horse, heard that his hocks were sore from our vet, started listening to me and thinking about the things we need to do for him. It’s not a money issue.
I understand he needs maintenance and I will do whatever it takes to make sure he gets proper care.[/QUOTE]
That’s great! I’m really glad to hear that you and your mom are getting on the same page.
[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7627834]
Sometimes it’s not anything physical and just simply bad riding. I’d say 100% of the time stopping at a cross rail is bad riding.[/QUOTE]
Technically, he ran out of the cross rail. Then he completed the course perfectly after I made him jump it. It may be my bad riding, and I don’t mind taking a good hard look at myself and my riding. But the fact of the matter is that the vet said today he is very stiff in both hocks and he’s barefoot, two things which could also be causing the refusals.
I’ve never, never had an issue getting this horse to jump before. I’m not sure how my riding style could change so drastically overnight that he refuses everything we jump away from home.
I also gave him Previcox, not bute. The vet had some tablets with him and let me have them to make him comfortable. It looks like we have a vet appointment Friday! Farrier comes tomorrow morning.
If he use to do reining, he has taken a lot of abuse on his kocks. Hocks are an integarl part of jumping.
[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7627866]
I also gave him Previcox, not bute. The vet had some tablets with him and let me have them to make him comfortable. It looks like we have a vet appointment Friday! Farrier comes tomorrow morning.[/QUOTE]
Good luck. I have a 35 year old pony who gets a Previcox a day (arthritis in her ankle). Keeps her comfortable and happy…she has been getting it for several years. She doesn’t look her age at all—but we do not ride her, she is just living out in the field with her minis and younger horses as the baby sitter and still rules the field with her little iron hooves 
[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7627862]
Technically, he ran out of the cross rail. Then he completed the course perfectly after I made him jump it. It may be my bad riding, and I don’t mind taking a good hard look at myself and my riding. But the fact of the matter is that the vet said today he is very stiff in both hocks and he’s barefoot, two things which could also be causing the refusals.
I’ve never, never had an issue getting this horse to jump before. I’m not sure how my riding style could change so drastically overnight that he refuses everything we jump away from home.[/QUOTE]
Running out is a stop. Period.
Who knows. You’re nervous, you didn’t ride straight, you were looking down, you leaned, you pulled with one rein, you kicked, whatever. When my horse stops, I immediately think it’s my fault. 99.9% of the time it is.
I simply can’t think of a time where pain is the cause for a horse stopping at a cross rail. They can walk over the darned thing. If you can’t prevent a stop then that’s you, not the horse.
Now, he might in addition to that have hock problems and be ouchy from being barefoot. I’m not discounting that.
[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7627862]
Technically, he ran out of the cross rail. Then he completed the course perfectly after I made him jump it. It may be my bad riding, and I don’t mind taking a good hard look at myself and my riding. But the fact of the matter is that the vet said today he is very stiff in both hocks and he’s barefoot, two things which could also be causing the refusals.
I’ve never, never had an issue getting this horse to jump before. I’m not sure how my riding style could change so drastically overnight that he refuses everything we jump away from home.[/QUOTE]
Almost everyone finds themselves nervous enough to have their riding change overnight when they move from schooling at home to riding in the show ring. That is why people school higher at home and show over lower fences in competitions. It would be very unusual not to change somewhat from lessons to shows.
[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7627960]
Running out is a stop. Period.
Who knows. You’re nervous, you didn’t ride straight, you were looking down, you leaned, you pulled with one rein, you kicked, whatever. When my horse stops, I immediately think it’s my fault. 99.9% of the time it is.
I simply can’t think of a time where pain is the cause for a horse stopping at a cross rail. They can walk over the darned thing. If you can’t prevent a stop then that’s you, not the horse.
Now, he might in addition to that have hock problems and be ouchy from being barefoot. I’m not discounting that.[/QUOTE]
Yes…you can make just about any horse go over a crossrail. But should you? Our job is to listen to what the horse is telling us. If it used to jump willingly and now is showing a pattern of not wanting to jump it needs to be looked into.
The horse I used to lease that I mentioned earlier? I could make him jump but he really didn’t want to…and we’re not talking much more than crossrails (just up to 2’3"). It was a main reason I moved on. I couldn’t keep him in the program that made him the most willing and I didn’t like forcing him. I feel a little guilty about what I made him do all these years later.
Push Mom on the muzzle for outside and small hole hay net in the stall too. He can still nibble at a few blades of grass through it to stay busy and the net slows down eating speed to stretch less hay out longer so he can be happy and stay busy with a smaller amount.
These things are C.H.E.A.P. and require no added work or management changes around the barn.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7628070]
Yes…you can make just about any horse go over a crossrail. But should you? Our job is to listen to what the horse is telling us. If it used to jump willingly and now is showing a pattern of not wanting to jump it needs to be looked into.
The horse I used to lease that I mentioned earlier? I could make him jump but he really didn’t want to…and we’re not talking much more than crossrails (just up to 2’3"). It was a main reason I moved on. I couldn’t keep him in the program that made him the most willing and I didn’t like forcing him. I feel a little guilty about what I made him do all these years later.[/QUOTE]
No you shouldn’t. I’m just saying that if the horse is regularly jumping over a 2’6 course at home, and all of the sudden wont’ jump a cross rail only at shows, then I’d bet dollars to donuts that it’s the rider and not a pain issue at all.
[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7628229]
No you shouldn’t. I’m just saying that if the horse is regularly jumping over a 2’6 course at home, and all of the sudden wont’ jump a cross rail only at shows, then I’d bet dollars to donuts that it’s the rider and not a pain issue at all.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this in terms of horse being ok at home, but not at a show. Its possible that this particular show happened to coincide with horse needing maintenance. Maybe the prep work leading up to the show, horse being barefoot and needing hocks done is what made him refuse and even if you had stayed home, the refusing would have happened eventually.
I guess you won’t really know OP until you take him to another show to see if its just a show thing, or not.
Well, the vet appointment has been moved up to tomorrow. He will get shoes on at 8 am tomorrow, then at 11 he will be off to Tallahassee for x-rays. If they don’t find anything, then it’s my riding or he’s being a pig. Don’t think that’s the case, but could very well be.
I will keep you guys updated with the findings! I don’t have another show until 4-H, and I definitely don’t want refusals there, so I will take him to a friend’s place to school, where he has also been refusing lately to see if the refusals stop after shoeing/vet care.
