Debbie McDonald "losing our way in this sport"

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=khall;8275287]
IMO because EG with Undercover scored over 80% in GP with incorrect basis in his training as evidenced by many pictures taken in warmup. Those were RK with harsh backwards riding yet he can still present a test that judges score highly. Undercover has many many holes in his work, canter is appalling, changes are crooked and over bent, piris are horrid, no true extensions yet he still can score so high. I liked EG riding Toto saw them live at WEG 2010, cannot abide EG riding Undercover, he shows all that I hate about international dressage.[/QUOTE]

This kind of mean-spirited, classless remark belongs over on Facebook.

[alicen]

[QUOTE=Rusalka;8275383]
What a difference 20 years has made.[/QUOTE]

Ummm. did you notice Werth warming up in the adjacent ring?

[2tempe]

[QUOTE=magicrider7;8274801]
I SO AGREE with Debbie! It has made me re-think pursuing dressage competitively at the upper levels.[/QUOTE]

Really? Show me any sport or any profession that doesn’t have some bad eggs and lousy practices. If you avoid all of them, you will end up locking yourself in the house.

Pursue dressage, with a good trainer. Move up the levels as you can and enjoy the process. Ride in a way that makes your horse happy and do as well as you can.
There is nothing here that hasn’t been kicked around for years, and in fact some have thought there is a movement back to a more relaxed, soft ride.

Rather than throw in the towel over unspecified issues, I think Debbie should take Dover’s advice. Press on, work to make changes where you can. Maybe she was just having a bad day.

[Crockpot]

Rather than throw in the towel over unspecified issues, I think Debbie should take Dover’s advice. Press on, work to make changes where you can. Maybe she was just having a bad day.

yeah really- I think it is very funny that ammies on the net swoon and swear off competitive dressage because they dont like the FEI judging. - good bye cruel world!

Obviously correct work can make it and no, RD? , the USA is not a holy beacon for other countries to follow.:lol:

Hint- among others, Great Britain ;).

[dwblover]

I go to a lot of rated shows and I have NEVER seen anyone riding around in ANYTHING at all similar to Undercover’s head and neck position. Why is it that because a few people at the top do something bizarre that now all of a sudden dressage is in dire straits and we should all quit? I sure as heck don’t ride my horses like that and neither does anyone I know, including upper level trainers. The judging at my shows is correct and they are not rewarding anything they shouldn’t. Dressage is like 80% adult amateurs at the lower levels, so I think these International trainers are being a bit dramatic. If I see rollkur going on in a training level warm-up I’ll be the first to freak out.

[Bogey2]

Really? Show me any sport or any profession that doesn’t have some bad eggs and lousy practices. If you avoid all of them, you will end up locking yourself in the house.

Pursue dressage, with a good trainer. Move up the levels as you can and enjoy the process. Ride in a way that makes your horse happy and do as well as you can.
There is nothing here that hasn’t been kicked around for years, and in fact some have thought there is a movement back to a more relaxed, soft ride.

Rather than throw in the towel over unspecified issues, I think Debbie should take Dover’s advice. Press on, work to make changes where you can. Maybe she was just having a bad day.

well said 2tempi.

[magicrider7]

[QUOTE=2tempe;8275636]
Really? Show me any sport or any profession that doesn’t have some bad eggs and lousy practices. If you avoid all of them, you will end up locking yourself in the house.

Pursue dressage, with a good trainer. Move up the levels as you can and enjoy the process. Ride in a way that makes your horse happy and do as well as you can.
There is nothing here that hasn’t been kicked around for years, and in fact some have thought there is a movement back to a more relaxed, soft ride.

Rather than throw in the towel over unspecified issues, I think Debbie should take Dover’s advice. Press on, work to make changes where you can. Maybe she was just having a bad day.[/QUOTE]

I agree that every discipline in the horse world has bad practices and training methods. Thats not the issue here. Take show jumping for example. You have two riders in the jumping world with equally talented horses, one rider practices Rollkur (which is much more prevalent in jumping than dressage) or any other terrible training method, and the other rider doesn’t. They both compete in a grand prix competition, and they both have an EQUAL chance of winning, because all they have to do is keep the poles up and be the fastest.

The problem in competitive dressage is that if you have the same two riders competing, their outcome is completely dependent on the judges. Judging will always be subjective. And if judges know that a certain rider practices rollkur, rides with harsh spurs, has exaggerated front leg movement, etc., and they STILL give them a high score, that is the problem!

Now Charlotte and Valegro are ambassadors for dressage, and they truly show how classical principles should be rewarded at the highest level. The problem is that many of the people trailing behind them have not changed their ways after seeing carl/charlotte produce horses like this at the top; no, they continue to practice their harsh methods, and exaggerated movements, and get rewarded for it.

This is why I would’t want to compete at the upper levels. Because even though I might produce a beautiful, correct and classical test; the suspension crazy, front leg wower, tense horse that comes after me is going to win the class. And two years later that horse will be broken down, either physically or mentally.

I will train and school to grand prix at home, but I won’t expect to have any judge reward it if it’s not “Spectacular” or to their liking.

Theres nothing wrong with having lovely suspension or top class horses that compete in dressage, it’s just that the sad part is that they might never get rewarded for it.

[magicrider7]

We still have excellent judges and excellent riders that compete, so don’t misunderstand me in thinking that all of dressage is doomed. But there is definitely a problem with some of our upper level judging.

[psb]

Would you mind sharing a link to the warm up video? It sounds like something fun to watch.

[Rusalka]

[QUOTE=psb;8275741]
Would you mind sharing a link to the warm up video? It sounds like something fun to watch.[/QUOTE]

sure, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs

[magicrider7]

[QUOTE=Rusalka;8275792]
sure, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs[/QUOTE]

Wow, really lovely to watch. I loved his commentary too!

[Pocket_Pony]

Lovely video and commentary. I love how lightly he rides and how his hands are forward and giving.

[khall]

Larkspur, last time I looked COTH is a discussion board, discussions mean there will be opinions that are put out there. You can agree or disagree does not mean that my opinion is mean spirited (really? mean spirited or just cruel and inhumane, is EG having Undercover put in pretzel position and asked to move/work) or classless. What it is, is my observations of some international riders who while they may win gold medals (IMO a tragedy that should not occur but has been going on since '88 with NU/Remmi) does not mean that their so called dressage is correct or in the best interest of the horses. Dressage riders should be better riders than this https://www.facebook.com/DeineStimmeGegenRollkur/photos/pb.461648053846246.-2207520000.1439833971./1077026168975095/?type=1&theater, this is the type of riding found at breed shows, should not be rewarded with a score of over 80%. Now Valegro/CD, CH and quite a few others are showing humane, correct harmonious work in and out of the warmup arena/show arena. Deep riding is one thing, RK is another deal that should not have a place in dressage training. It is aggressive riding leading to tensioned horses. Thought international dressage was moving away from it, but apparently EG can still get away with it. Undercover shows so much tension in his work, nothing like what EG and Toto exhibited and I am not a fan of Undercover.

[belgianWBLuver]

[QUOTE=khall;8276249]
Larkspur, last time I looked COTH is a discussion board, discussions mean there will be opinions that are put out there. You can agree or disagree does not mean that my opinion is mean spirited (really? mean spirited or just cruel and inhumane, is EG having Undercover put in pretzel position and asked to move/work) or classless. What it is, is my observations of some international riders who while they may win gold medals (IMO a tragedy that should not occur but has been going on since '88 with NU/Remmi) does not mean that their so called dressage is correct or in the best interest of the horses. Dressage riders should be better riders than this https://www.facebook.com/DeineStimmeGegenRollkur/photos/pb.461648053846246.-2207520000.1439833971./1077026168975095/?type=1&theater, this is the type of riding found at breed shows, should not be rewarded with a score of over 80%. Now Valegro/CD, CH and quite a few others are showing humane, correct harmonious work in and out of the warmup arena/show arena. Deep riding is one thing, RK is another deal that should not have a place in dressage training. It is aggressive riding leading to tensioned horses. Thought international dressage was moving away from it, but apparently EG can still get away with it. Undercover shows so much tension in his work, nothing like what EG and Toto exhibited and I am not a fan of Undercover.[/QUOTE]

^THIS^ Bravo Khall

[netg]

[QUOTE=Rusalka;8275383]
In short, I would be plenty frustrated if I were a professional looking at my peers’ actions within the past week alone. I recently just revisited the video of Reiner Klimke warming up Biotop at Aachen '95. To me, that is poetry in motion, absolutely light. The movements are almost joyful to me (not quite the right word…). i.e. I can tell the horse is happy. What a difference 20 years has made.[/QUOTE]

@alicen;8275615

Ummm. did you notice Werth warming up in the adjacent ring?

Bill Woods has that video on his youtube as well (the linked video was his warmup/commentary video for Biotop.) The difference in 20 years is, at the time it was found terribly shocking that NU and I think IW (can’t watch the video right now, and I don’t remember for sure) were warming up that way.

[alicen]

[QUOTE=khall;8276249]
Thought international dressage was moving away from it, but apparently EG can still get away with it. Undercover shows so much tension in his work, nothing like what EG and Toto exhibited and I am not a fan of Undercover.[/QUOTE]

But, but … Gal used the same training methods on Toto, it’s just that Toto had a different temperament and conformation than Undercover.

[raff]

I think Gal did that very briefly as a correction, as all the photos are in the same small area.
There is a video of his warming up at the same competition that is much less ‘shocking’ and probably much more indicative of his general style (as it’s a video not a few seconds of carefully selected images)
Clearly he didn’t ride like this for long enough to be given a warning (or for the photographer to get much in the way of varied pics except in a small area)
Anyway, the real question is ‘why do they do it, and how does it work’? It must work or they wouldn’t risk doing it in the current climate, and they do produce horses who are exceptional.
It’s quite possible that it’s preferable to the horse to have a couple of minutes of rollkur, unlock the body bracing, and go on in a supple way, than to be driven relentlessly into an implacable holding hand like a lot of the loudest mouthed of some of the critics do.
Until it’s understood, how can you judge it as ‘worse’ It’s just very obviously uncomfortable for the horse briefly (one assumes it’s briefly) but ALL corrections to horses are uncomfortable and who is to say this is any more aversive to them than a sustained less effective correction.
I’m obviously not in favour of RK , but there must be a benefit beyond the dramatic proclamations made by people who have no way of knowing. Those guys are great riders, so they don’t NEED to do it, but they DO it, why???

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=raff;8276571]
I think Gal did that very briefly as a correction, as all the photos are in the same small area.
There is a video of his warming up at the same competition that is much less ‘shocking’ and probably much more indicative of his general style (as it’s a video not a few seconds of carefully selected images)
Clearly he didn’t ride like this for long enough to be given a warning (or for the photographer to get much in the way of varied pics except in a small area)
Anyway, the real question is ‘why do they do it, and how does it work’? It must work or they wouldn’t risk doing it in the current climate, and they do produce horses who are exceptional.
It’s quite possible that it’s preferable to the horse to have a couple of minutes of rollkur, unlock the body bracing, and go on in a supple way, than to be driven relentlessly into an implacable holding hand like a lot of the loudest mouthed of some of the critics do.
Until it’s understood, how can you judge it as ‘worse’ It’s just very obviously uncomfortable for the horse briefly (one assumes it’s briefly) but ALL corrections to horses are uncomfortable and who is to say this is any more aversive to them than a sustained less effective correction.
I’m obviously not in favour of RK , but there must be a benefit beyond the dramatic proclamations made by people who have no way of knowing. Those guys are great riders, so they don’t NEED to do it, but they DO it, why???[/QUOTE]

I think you are correct about the photos. They capitalized on a few brief moments during the early part of the warm-up to capture the images best suited for drumming up hysteria.

I think you mean this video from the previous day?

https://www.facebook.com/DianeBliessen/videos/o.461648053846246/959979567398339/?type=2&theater

I posted this on another thread with the question “why is it only three minutes”? Perhaps the remainder of the ride did not offend them. This is not a horse suffering abuse. He is relaxed and willing – a superb and pampered athlete doing his gymnastics.

Aside from his great talent, one of the things I love about Edward Gal is I never hear him say an unkind word about anyone. He is always positive and just goes about training the horses and smiling and ignoring the baseless insults. His horses do not break down in a year or two but have long careers.

If you want to rage against dressage horse abuse or crappy training, try looking around in your local dressage community. Buy a nice horse for a wealthy client (get your commission), train it stupidly until it is lame in a year, sell it down the road (another commission) then get the client to buy another nice horse (commission), and so on and so forth.

[Crockpot]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8276883]

Aside from his great talent, one of the things I love about Edward Gal is I never hear him say an unkind word about anyone. He is always positive and just goes about training the horses and smiling and ignoring the baseless insults. His horses do not break down in a year or two but have long careers.

If you want to rage against dressage horse abuse or crappy training, try looking around in your local dressage community. Buy a nice horse for a wealthy client (get your commission), train it stupidly until it is lame in a year, sell it down the road (another commission) then get the client to buy another nice horse (commission), and so on and so forth.[/QUOTE]

yes.

[khall]

alicen, I do think EG did more deep than true RK with Toto, at least that is what I saw at WEG 2010 and I got to see the night before freestyle warmup in the stadium with all the riders (BTW wanted to rip IW off of Warum Night, horrid to watch her “ride” /bully that horse), saw deep with Toto but not heavy handed aggressive riding, now with EG and Gribaldi yes true RK with aggressive riding, my opinion is the difference in temperaments between Gribaldi, Undercover and Toto, Toto does not have the tension and fight to him that Gribaldi did (remember they had to “retire” Gribaldi due to him saying enough!) and Undercover seems to. Got to watch Toto gallop around the stadium during the award ceremony at WEG totally relaxed and on a loose rein, wonderful to watch. I do agree that Toto still showed incorrect training, extensions and tempi changes were his hang ups, but the 3 Ps and his HP both canter and trot were super under EG.

raff, I have watched video of EG riding Gribaldi in extreme RK very aggressive and not for a very brief correction. I counted the pictures on the FB with EG and Undercover, 28 pics of EG in extreme RK. Maybe use it to save your life but never in everyday training or warmup, goes against all correct biomechanics of the horse. I think the horses that get this type of so called training tend to be the tense, hot, spooky horses and the riders use it for control. I know NU did so with Remmi and boy did it cause a ruckus at the time. Reiner K was very outspoken against it. RK has evolved from what NU did, though and to me it is much much more aggressive and abusive, used with double bridles and backward hands, braced in the stirrups, with extreme leverage applied to the poor horse (hello, blue tongue anyone?). Again it is my opinion that dressage is better than this and dressage riders should not resort to such crude methods in order to subjugate the horse i.e. control it. I know and study biomechanics of the horse, study art form dressage under a former Nuno Olivera student, RK goes against everything that true dressage is, even if used as a brief “correction”. This type of riding is not training, not dressage and the horses ridden this way show their issues in the show arena.

There crockpot, happy now?