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Debbie McDonald "losing our way in this sport"

Dressage
#61

[QUOTE=khall;8276903]
alicen, I do think EG did more deep than true RK with Toto, at least that is what I saw at WEG 2010 and I got to see the night before freestyle warmup in the stadium with all the riders (BTW wanted to rip IW off of Warum Night, horrid to watch her “ride” /bully that horse), saw deep with Toto but not heavy handed aggressive riding, now with EG and Garibaldi yes true RK with aggressive riding, my opinion is the difference in temperaments between Garibaldi, Undercover and Toto, Toto does not have the tension and fight to him that Garibaldi did (remember they had to “retire” Garibaldi due to him saying enough!) and Undercover seems to. Got to watch Toto gallop around the stadium during the award ceremony at WEG totally relaxed and on a loose rein, wonderful to watch. I do agree that Toto still showed incorrect training, extensions and tempi changes were his hang ups, but the 3 Ps and his HP both canter and trot were super under EG.

raff, I have watched video of EG riding Garibaldi in extreme RK very aggressive and not for a very brief correction. I counted the pictures on the FB with EG and Undercover, 28 pics of EG in extreme RK. Maybe use it to save your life but never in everyday training or warmup, goes against all correct biomechanics of the horse. I think the horses that get this type of so called training tend to be the tense, hot, spooky horses and the riders use it for control. I know NU did so with Remmi and boy did it cause a ruckus at the time. Reiner K was very outspoken against it. RK has evolved from what NU did, though and to me it is much much more aggressive and abusive, used with double bridles and backward hands, braced in the stirrups, with extreme leverage applied to the poor horse (hello, blue tongue anyone?). Again it is my opinion that dressage is better than this and dressage riders should not resort to such crude methods in order to subjugate the horse i.e. control it. I know and study biomechanics of the horse, study art form dressage under a former Nuno Olivera student, RK goes against everything that true dressage is, even if used as a brief “correction”. This type of riding is not training, not dressage and the horses ridden this way show their issues in the show arena.[/QUOTE]

As far as I know Ed gal never rode any horse called Garibaldi

#62

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8276914]
As far as I know Ed gal never rode any horse called Garibaldi[/QUOTE]

Come on! You know the horse Khall is talking about. Lets not be childish about this.

#63

[QUOTE=J-Lu;8276929]
Come on! You know the horse Khall is talking about. Lets not be childish about this.[/QUOTE]

:confused:

#64

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8276914]
As far as I know Ed gal never rode any horse called Garibaldi[/QUOTE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9ZfZxE4gDA

Gal rode Gribaldi

Garibaldi II was a famous Hanoverian stallion

#65

[QUOTE=khall;8276903]
alicen, I do think EG did more deep than true RK with Toto, at least that is what I saw at WEG 2010 and I got to see the night before freestyle warmup in the stadium with all the riders (BTW wanted to rip IW off of Warum Night, horrid to watch her “ride” /bully that horse), saw deep with Toto but not heavy handed aggressive riding, now with EG and Garibaldi yes true RK with aggressive riding, my opinion is the difference in temperaments between Garibaldi, Undercover and Toto, Toto does not have the tension and fight to him that Garibaldi did (remember they had to “retire” Garibaldi due to him saying enough!) and Undercover seems to. Got to watch Toto gallop around the stadium during the award ceremony at WEG totally relaxed and on a loose rein, wonderful to watch. I do agree that Toto still showed incorrect training, extensions and tempi changes were his hang ups, but the 3 Ps and his HP both canter and trot were super under EG.

raff, I have watched video of EG riding Garibaldi in extreme RK very aggressive and not for a very brief correction. I counted the pictures on the FB with EG and Undercover, 28 pics of EG in extreme RK. Maybe use it to save your life but never in everyday training or warmup, goes against all correct biomechanics of the horse. I think the horses that get this type of so called training tend to be the tense, hot, spooky horses and the riders use it for control. I know NU did so with Remmi and boy did it cause a ruckus at the time. Reiner K was very outspoken against it. RK has evolved from what NU did, though and to me it is much much more aggressive and abusive, used with double bridles and backward hands, braced in the stirrups, with extreme leverage applied to the poor horse (hello, blue tongue anyone?). Again it is my opinion that dressage is better than this and dressage riders should not resort to such crude methods in order to subjugate the horse i.e. control it. I know and study biomechanics of the horse, study art form dressage under a former Nuno Olivera student, RK goes against everything that true dressage is, even if used as a brief “correction”. This type of riding is not training, not dressage and the horses ridden this way show their issues in the show arena.[/QUOTE

1.How did you come to the conclusion that Totilas showed “incorrect training”? :confused:

2.Do you realize that 28 pictures can be taken in seconds?

  1. What is “art form dressage”?
#66

for the keyboard experts who think these riders clearly have no idea of their weak points and what to work on so cleaRLY must need your help!

Hope you watch to the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=86&v=pSvJdE-4U3w

#67

Did someone actually post that it’s okay to abuse a horse for a brief period if it unlocks the horse for later? I consider rollkur just as much horse abuse as soring or poling; what I don’t understand is how any humane person can accept it. No offense, but IMO, it’s the horse training equivalent of waterboarding.

#68

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8276972]
for the keyboard experts who think these riders clearly have no idea of their weak points and what to work on so cleaRLY must need your help!

Hope you watch to the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=86&v=pSvJdE-4U3w[/QUOTE]

Thank you that was very interesting to watch!!

#69

EG/Toto showed issues with halts, chin to chest and out behind, https://www.google.com/search?q=Edward+Gal+totilas&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CB4QsARqFQoTCJXOlKrKsccCFct0PgodqfgK0g&biw=1499&bih=786#imgrc=Pu81Kq1NKMCPSM%3A

Totilas extensions were problematic, but his tempi changes showed the biggest issues, EG would roll him up with chin almost to his chest instead of big open up changes that a horse of that caliber should have.

skydy, yes pictures can be taken that quickly but these if you looked were taken around the arena not in sequence, different sides of the arena, different gaits and my bad there are 39 photos showing extreme RK with EG and Undercover.
https://www.facebook.com/DeineStimmeGegenRollkur/photos_stream

Wished FEI would follow their directives!

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2010/02/09/german-equestrian-federation-takes-stand-against-rollkur

crockpot I have never said international riders/horses should be perfect, I do strongly disagree with the use of RK by riders of dressage at any time unless their lives are in danger. RK has no place in the dressage arena as a method of warmup or training, it is crude and abusive in my book.

Art form or classical dressage, what you read in the old books written and taught by the ODGs and thankfully still by some who trained with the ODGs.

viney, funny you should say that about soring/TWH, I showed the pics of EG/Undercover to a friend who grew up in TWH world, she was amazed that Undercover was taking the RK and not putting EG on the ground and also that while she has seen some horrid riding in TWH world never seen a horse rolled up like the photos of EG/Undercover.

As for being a key board rider, nope not even close, I work horses pretty much every day of my life, my own homebreds that I train myself. They will never be international contenders but that is ok I only like showing in small increments, fun to do every once in awhile. I don’t usually get involved in these debates on chat boards but got sucked in with Debbie M’s dismay, I used to love watching her with Bretina, loved their partnership.

#70

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8276972]
for the keyboard experts who think these riders clearly have no idea of their weak points and what to work on so cleaRLY must need your help!

Hope you watch to the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=86&v=pSvJdE-4U3w[/QUOTE]

I don’t get it. Who said this? Do you know who Gribaldi is? Are you a “keyboard expert”?

#71

I am impressed that you believe that you can spot poor training in International GP horses. How do you know that Totilas’ “problematic extensions” were a result of poor training?
I always thought that his conformation was such that he naturally tended toward collection not extension, but that’s just my opinion.

Do you really think that every flaw that you see in a horses performance is due to poor training? How can you tell the difference between a movement that is difficult for that particular horse vs poor training?

I watched the video of Gal and looked at the photos. However many photos there are (now 39?) I think we all know that the number is meaningless given the capability of modern cameras.

That said, watching the video I saw a lot of deep and some rollkur. I think rollkur is ugly, IF I had a GP horse (I don’t) I would not allow it to be trained in that manner and I certainly wouldn’t use it myself. However, I did not see the prolonged horror that 39 still photos depict and as much as I don’t like it, I think that this warm up is being sensationalized. It is rollkur, yes and it is disturbing to me however, to sensationalize this does not help the cause.

Interesting that ODG classical dressage is now called “Art Form Dressage”. Who knew? I suppose people can call whatever they do, whatever they want… :confused:

#72

Do you know who Gribaldi is?

Of course and I also know he was not the same horse as GARIBALDI !
:wink:

#73

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8276984]
Did someone actually post that it’s okay to abuse a horse for a brief period if it unlocks the horse for later? I consider rollkur just as much horse abuse as soring or poling; what I don’t understand is how any humane person can accept it. No offense, but IMO, it’s the horse training equivalent of waterboarding.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly.

#74

skydy,
having an understanding of equine biomechanics and having studied the ODGs work and riding with a former student of NO (you know one of the great classical masters?) yes I can see when a horse’s training is problematic, also helps to see warm ups in real life or in video/photos (I have done both) to see how they train and what shows up in the show arena. It is not rocket science and you do not have to be an international rider/judge to be able to see a shortened neck, pedastal piaffe, no overtracking in extensions (I have learned in my study better collection should result in better extensions), crooked changes, over bent in changes, tensioned steps in piaffe/passage/extensions, gaping mouths with riders hand riding them (Parzival), flash rather than harmony being rewarded. Why I was so excited when Valegro started winning, was hoping there would be changes in international judging, but when EG can score over 80% with Undercover there is a problem still.

http://www.horse-riding-tips-n-chat.com/classical-dressage.html I will be sure to let my trainer know he should not be calling what he does art form dressage, it is a common terminology and a means of training that I find to be beautiful and harmonious. Quite a few well know ODGs and even modern riders/trainers today look at correct dressage training as art. I look at it as what is best for the horse.

You seem to not like RK but the pictures are OK in your book of EG/Undercover? What I am saying is that unless the rider’s life is in danger there should never be any pictures of a horse rolled up like Undercover is in those shown at Aachen 2015, that is not dressage, it is crude abusive riding that leads to tension and disharmony between horse and rider.

#75

[QUOTE=khall;8277253]
having an understanding of equine biomechanics and having studied the ODGs work and riding with a former student of NO (you know one of the great classical masters?) yes I can see when a horse’s training is problematic, also helps to see warm ups in real life or in video/photos (I have done both) to see how they train and what shows up in the show arena. It is not rocket science and you do not have to be an international rider/judge to be able to see a shortened neck, pedastal piaffe, no overtracking in extensions (I have learned in my study better collection should result in better extensions), crooked changes, over bent in changes, tensioned steps in piaffe/passage/extensions, gaping mouths with riders hand riding them (Parzival), flash rather than harmony being rewarded. Why I was so excited when Valegro started winning, was hoping there would be changes in international judging, but when EG can score over 80% with Undercover there is a problem still.

http://www.horse-riding-tips-n-chat.com/classical-dressage.html I will be sure to let my trainer know he should not be calling what he does art form dressage, it is a common terminology and a means of training that I find to be beautiful and harmonious. Quite a few well know ODGs and even modern riders/trainers today look at correct dressage training as art. I look at it as what is best for the horse.

You seem to not like RK but the pictures are OK in your book of EG/Undercover? What I am saying is that unless the rider’s life is in danger there should never be any pictures of a horse rolled up like Undercover is in those shown at Aachen 2015, that is not dressage, it is crude abusive riding that leads to tension and disharmony between horse and rider.[/QUOTE] MARK RUSSELL a master? :no::eek: There are no examples of his work out there to judge from. Can you produce one, just one, dressage horse or rider that has accomplished anything substantial under his training?

No, that is not what Raff posted. That is how you interpreted it. Abuse is in eye of the beholder.

#76

A few points - first of all, you all do realize the judges do NOT JUDGE THE WARM UP! Everyone wants them to “follow the directives”, but please realize judges ONLY judge what they see in the test. Judging starts when the horse first comes down centerline, and it ends at the final salute.

We don’t always get to see the individual scores, but when we did, Ed Gal and Toto were generally scored down in their extended trot and their tempis - but gained so many points on the other work. You very seldom see pirouettes of the quality that Toto had, nor piaffe and passage AND the tricky transitions into those movements. Theirs were silky smooth. The judges have to reward that quality.

Gribaldi (please note, Garibaldi is a very different stallion!) was noted for not being as through and strong behind, even as a young horse in his stallion testing. It is partly just the biomechanics of the horse, you can’t blame it all on Ed Gal! Toto inherited very much from his sire. These short, compact horses are generally going to do better with the collected work - much like some of the Baroque breeds. Then it is further emphasized with the training of course.

When you look at all the videos of Gal and Toto, I’ve never seen video of him ridden in Rolkur - and everything we read about this horse, he is sensitive and light and was a bit frightening as a young horse. EG may use RK on some of the horses, but there really isn’t any evidence of it with Toto. Yes, he got short in the neck - but believe me, you can do that without RK - go to ANY dressage show and watch the horses, you will see short necks.

I just don’t believe that MOST riders are going down the RK path. I show, I scribe, I volunteer at shows all the time, and have only seen one or two riders every do this kind of rough riding. RK has been around for longer then I have, and I just don’t see it as a pervasive issue in our sport. An issue - yes, just as in any sport, there are some issues. But I don’t see the majority of riders rushing to join in.

We don’t know what Debbie was commenting on - I would guess (imho) it was the Young Horse competition. And that is a whole 'nother topic. Personally, I don’t think YH is a good thing for our horses and our sport, again imho.

#77

well said MOR. Agree.- with all your comments.

Posting again- interview with Ed in 2010 re Totilas <3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6aHTJTGKSU

Such an evil abusive trainer- NOT

Stop with the cherry picked stills- watch the videos. Not perfect but not cruel…

Sick of all this bashing of good people.

#78

Context for the post would have been great.

My opinion is deep riding (poll low) is very prevalent in Europe-- just watch Horse Hero for a day… but this isn’t RK.

#79

[QUOTE=Justice~for~Horses;8277290]
MARK RUSSELL a master? :no::eek: There are no examples of his work out there to judge from. Can you produce one, just one, dressage horse or rider that has accomplished anything substantial under his training? [/QUOTE]

There is this dressage horse offered for sale that he trained: http://youtu.be/zEYkhHkLNCo

#80

[QUOTE=alibi_18;8277333]
There is this dressage horse offered for sale that he trained: http://youtu.be/zEYkhHkLNCo[/QUOTE]

That horse is cute, compliant, willing, and…

-My lord that man is unsteady in his hands (unless you want to doze off, just start at 5:20).
-the horse is not remotely through behind
-not prompt- at 2:13 it takes a good 3-4 seconds to squeeeeeeze into a jog from a plodding walk.
-Stiff in the loins
-resistant @ 6:18 then edited
-The transitions downward were unbalanced and not forward…
-The zooming in on the legs during the LY meant we have no idea what the whole picture looked like.
-Not carrying behind at the canter at all. Oh my word. That’s not dressage. That’s a cute little bay horse dinking around on a circle.

I can buy that QH all day long for about $1800, maybe $2500.

That’s a decently ‘started’ 8 YO who wouldn’t score well at Training for gosh sakes.

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