Debbies explanation for what went wrong with Brentina

[Sister_Margarita]

[QUOTE=maple_brook;3446895]
If one of the judges was so strongly convienced that the mare was unsound…why didn’t he stop her test? Wasn’t that one of his responsibility as a judge?

One point to keep in mind from someone with a bad back…normally I am fine and no one would know I have back problems. But when I am tensed or stress, wow, it’s amazing how my back issues show themselves. So it’s possible that her tension and fear results in a magnification of a weakness in her. (This would explain why she checked fine before and after the ride.) But unless we were there, we will never truely know what went on.

Debbie has always been a class act so I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt![/QUOTE]

Thank Goodness and Amen.
I can’t believe what happened either, but for someone like Debbie McDonald, who has proven herself a real champion in the sport and in her caring for her horse, to endure all the harsh judgment from people who don’t have all the facts, were not there, don’t have one tenth the experience or knowledge as those who were there making decisions, is beyond amazing.

It must be great to sit and pontificate with your computers and sound all-knowing and slice and dice people who have given us so much. I know the vet, and he is the most animal-advocate, by-the-book, conservative vet I know. I have complete faith in the decisions that were made, and find the assertions by Monday-Morning-Quarterback Peanut Gallery Wannabees pretty crappy.

There are many possibilities to explain a sudden onset of difficulty without saying the people involved were negligent or used poor judgment. I am asthmatic, and I can be fine one moment and hard to breathe the next. I have started tests only to be wheezing half way through. I have gotten cramps and I have had pinched nerves. No warning, sometimes just as quick to vanish.

I hope your crystal balls keep you from ever having to deal with bad luck. May you always be so perfect.:mad:

[f4leggin]

I finnally found a video of the test (I think it is called tvtoniv - which is great btw). Watched it twice, and I did not see a lame horse. I saw some uneveness in the trot work - maybe that’s what you guys are refering to, but in my experience that could certainly be caused by tension. The canter work was just not that great, and her tension increased as the test went on. If you watch her right after the halt, she looks ready to explode. Debbie didn’t released the reins at all - infact right after the halt, the horse shows the white of her eyes. With a horse that has an incredible work ethic - which it sounds like she has, tension shows itself in so many ways… esp if she did want to jump out of her skin, but didn’t because she is so focused and wanting to do the right thing. A lot of the canter work was just stiff and tight. I’m surprised so many think she was lame. That wasn’t want I would have thought and even knowing that’s what lots were seeing, I didn’t see it. Tense from pain?? maybe but not a lameness issue in my mind.

Jill

[J-Lu]

@staceyk;3447170

I’m not savvy about breeding but am thinking 17 a little old to be a first time mommy? Aso that isn’t exactly retirement (not the kind of retirement I dream about, anyway).

Not necessarily too old. I think Richard Davison of England retired his great GP mare at 14 or 15 and bred her for the first time…and she had a wonderful foal.

[Tiligsmom]

[QUOTE=Sister Margarita;3447436]
Thank Goodness and Amen.
I can’t believe what happened either, but for someone like Debbie McDonald, who has proven herself a real champion in the sport and in her caring for her horse, to endure all the harsh judgment from people who don’t have all the facts, were not there, don’t have one tenth the experience or knowledge as those who were there making decisions, is beyond amazing.

It must be great to sit and pontificate with your computers and sound all-knowing and slice and dice people who have given us so much. I know the vet, and he is the most animal-advocate, by-the-book, conservative vet I know. I have complete faith in the decisions that were made, and find the assertions by Monday-Morning-Quarterback Peanut Gallery Wannabees pretty crappy.

There are many possibilities to explain a sudden onset of difficulty without saying the people involved were negligent or used poor judgment. I am asthmatic, and I can be fine one moment and hard to breathe the next. I have started tests only to be wheezing half way through. I have gotten cramps and I have had pinched nerves. No warning, sometimes just as quick to vanish.

I hope your crystal balls keep you from ever having to deal with bad luck. May you always be so perfect.:mad:[/QUOTE]

You go Sister!!! I couldn’t agree more. What blows my mind are all of the conspiracy theories:rolleyes:

[Beezer]

[QUOTE=staceyk;3447170]

Edited: Also, didn’t she used to be a chronic colicker? I seem to remember some close calls, and an interview with DM where she expressed fear that she might lose her at any time, etc. etc.[/QUOTE]

That was Beau Rivage.

[Sabine]

I don’t believe there was one minute of conspiracy…no way!
But the mare did not look right to me when she began qualifying- it seemed like when your old lover comes back and your hope carries you over reality…it seemed like an unreal love affair with Brentina- an outstanding, personable and genuinely gracious horse and a most wonderful and in every way exemplary rider- it seemed like we all needed her back so badly because she embodied what we would like to be represented by…but the ultimate wellness of the horse probably just didn’t quite hold up to the stress of this competition.

Let it rest folks…let’s keep the splendid moments in mind and lets’ not harp on an error of judgement- here or there…it’s all already gone down the line.
Brentina was an amazing mare- a dream horse and an inspiration to anyone wanting to ride dressage. Debbie is an example of patience, kindness, consistency and tact. Let’s hope both recover from this and go on to bigger and better things…Debbie to a new horse and Brentina to a fat pasture…:)!!

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

[QUOTE=Sabine;3447494]
I don’t believe there was one minute of conspiracy…no way!
But the mare did not look right to me when she began qualifying- it seemed like when your old lover comes back and your hope carries you over reality…it seemed like an unreal love affair with Brentina- an outstanding, personable and genuinely gracious horse and a most wonderful and in every way exemplary rider- it seemed like we all needed her back so badly because she embodied what we would like to be represented by…but the ultimate wellness of the horse probably just didn’t quite hold up to the stress of this competition.

Let it rest folks…let’s keep the splendid moments in mind and lets’ not harp on an error of judgement- here or there…it’s all already gone down the line.
Brentina was an amazing mare- a dream horse and an inspiration to anyone wanting to ride dressage. Debbie is an example of patience, kindness, consistency and tact. Let’s hope both recover from this and go on to bigger and better things…Debbie to a new horse and Brentina to a fat pasture…:)!![/QUOTE]

Amen!

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=kkj;3446765]

I just wish they could be more honest about what did go down.[/QUOTE]

Maybe they are.

[Kenike]

After going on my own and reading all of the stuff I could on this, including DM’s never-changing statements, I have come to the conclusion that I have no idea if anything was truly wrong. Instead, I am offering my condolences to DM and leaving it all there.

Afterall, and has been pointed out many times through the thread, Brentina isn’t exactly a youngster any longer. Nobody can expect perfection from her, and there are worse things in life.

[ise]

It is one of those sad realities when it goes wrong at the worst time. I know the Vets have said she’s sound and nothing is wrong but what if any horse actually is tying up and the rider keeps going? Or if they have heat prostration? With the new format of only 3 rides and no drop score - is a Team eliminted if a horse doesn’t finish a test? Or do they just average and count an excused ride as a zero? Anyone know? That’s why I prefer the old 4 rider with one drop score. Then a tough situation like this one wouldn’t be as significant in the scoring of the Team.

[Jeito]

Very well said, Sabine. . .and I agree wholeheartedly I am sorry I used the word “lame” in a earlier post as it obviously has strong emotional connotations to some people. I do not for a second believe that Debbie would have compromised her horse’s health, but life is rarely so black and white. To me Brentina was NQR. . .and in the end does it really matter whether the horse was lame, in pain but not lame (whatever that means), or just completely stressed out ? It was a very sad end to a wonderful partnership, and I am sure Debbie is devastated.

[sascha]

The Emperor’s New Clothes

If Important People with fancy titles tell us often and vehemently enough that something is so, many of us will start to believe it and to question our own eyes and experience.

Perhaps next we’ll hear that Debbie is such a poor rider that despite Brentina being 100% sound, the rider made her rein lame. That would definitely account for how she was 100% sound both before and after the test and miraculously lame throughout the Grand Prix. That’d sure save vets and selection committee and ground jury face left, right and centre, wouldn’t it.

Personally, I’m disappointed that the ground jury was so lacking in substance that they allowed not just Brentina but a couple of other lame horses to continue through to the very bitter end of the GP. For shame!

[AiryFairy]

[QUOTE=hansiska;3446941]
I think it’s important to notice what the judge at C very carefully said:

“Chairman Gislain Fouarge explained afterwards that he felt Brentina had not been in the right shape to perform a test at all. ‘She shouldn’t have done this to her horse’,he said.”

Fouarge did not say lame. He DID say the horse “had not been in the right shape”, thereby sidestepping the she-was-lame-and-why-didn’t-the-judges-excuse-her problem. Most damning, of course, is the statement that McDonald shouldn’t have done this to the horse.[/QUOTE]

That’s exactly my point though. A judge has the power to stop something that isn’t right, if he felt that Debbie was doing something wrong to her horse, he should have rung her out. To do nothing, but then make judgmental, scathing, snipey comments to the public after is very bad form. IMO he should have put up, or shut up.

According to the vets, the horse was in perfect shape, fit and sound, and I don’t believe in coverups or spin where an Olympic vet is concerned - his reputation is on the line, as are those of the team. Yes, she had obvious problems, but it’s the judges job to ACT in the horse’s welfare, not to publicly backstab the rider.

[baymare]

What Sister Margarita said.

Plus, speaking from (humble but relevant) personal experience: it is amazing what tension can do to the gaits of a horse. My old event mare hated the funny ring with the little white fence and no jumps so much that we were stopped mid-test more than once because she looked lame in all four legs due to tension. It was a ghastly feeling to ride, and went away completely when the tension ceased (i.e. when we were galloping toward a fence instead of attempting stretchy circle!) We stopped eventing because of the problem, and the mare went on to compete extremely successfully as a jumper, perfectly sound and happy, until her early twenties.

So who knows, ultimately, what the source of the difficulty was. Both Brentina and Debbie have earned a ton of credibility and respect over the years, and they have my good wishes and empathy no matter what.

Now let’s concentrate on rooting for the jumper riders, who are the US last and best hope to take home a team medal!

[RunningwaterWBs]

Personally, I think we have the right to discuss this. When you compete at the international level you open yourself to public scrutiny. Technology is such that we can see the test ringside from our computers in fullscreen. I think you could argue that we had a better view from our computers than many did in the stands. I watched every test live. The picture quality was excellent. NBC provides free downloads of many of the tests, including Brentina’s. I watched the test yet again yesterday and remain convinced the horse was NQR. That said, what else is there to say? I think we’ve examined the issue.

What I hope comes from this is a bit of education, for all of us. As has been said, none of us can know what we might have done were we in Debbie’s boots. It’s easy to say what should have been done. Having considered the possible contributing factors, I’d like to think this whole thing has given many of us some clarity on recognizing the red flags and making the tough decision to retire a horse.

The new format, IMHO, is only good and for exactly the type of situation we saw with Brentina. Without a dropped score, I think teams will be less likely to include a competitor with questionable suppleness. There’s no room for error.

As for the possibility of breeding Brentina, well, that’s something that, as a Hanoverian breeder, I’ve long fantasized about. (Which stallion would YOU pick?) Unfortunately, I won’t hold my breath. 17, though not ideal, is NOT too old, but I think that if the Thomases were interested in breeding the mare they’d have already done an ET. I don’t think the Thomases are interested in breeding; I think they prefer (as their history demonstrates) to shop in Verden instead. I really wish they’d shop, if only occasionally, in America, but that’s another discusion entirely. Don’t get me started on that one…

[HORSEBACKRIDER]

I have been surprised to see how many of the comments here are so lacking in genuine empathy for this horse and rider.

Oh, the words are there in an introductory way, offered up before some harsh judgment is propounded. Like the Southern way of skewering someone – simply add “Bless her heart” and you then can say anything.

I wonder what the source of such harsh and judgmental commentary is. Insecurity? I feel better about myself if I can diminish you? Resentments? I never thought you really were worthy and now I can show others what I, at least, always knew. Envy? Look how much I know, I am an expert and I should have more success in my life and riding.

Any or all of the above?

Forestalling the usual defenses – of course everyone can post what they want, reasonable minds can differ, discussion is useful and the point of these boards, after all.

But, there is a very unappealing and mean aspect to many of these posts, unmasking some real anger and apparently long-lingering resentments. The dressage community is not enhanced by it at all.

[kkj]

I also think we should feel free to discuss this. Moreover, I believe what I see and trust my eyes a lot more than I trust what people tell me.

I think it is possible that for the purpose of a vet check Brentina is sound. She may not show that uneveness when they check her over. Hell that uneveness on her RF may just be as a result of her old tendon injury. She may have lost some elasticity, or scar tissue makes the extension less fluid or whatever. Maybe it is not even a pain associated thing. I have no idea, and I would not say because of that uneveness, it is wrong to compete her or that she should not have qualified. There are other horses at this level who are not perfectly even. Several of them have an issue you can see here or there. They have never whistled these horses out. Why would they whistle out Brentina? Because it deteriorated to something else? Well I don’t know that that something else had anything to do with her initial uneveness.

However, Debbie and Courtney and Klaus and whoever else must see this initial uneveness. It is there in the selection trials. It is there in the beginning of her Olympic test before all hell broke loose. Why do they say that this horse was better than ever? That does piss me off. The horse was not better than ever, she was just the best we had and upon gambling, she was the one the decision-makers felt was our best bet to help us secure a medal. They were wrong in this case, but there should be no blame there. It was a tough call. Brentina could have very well come in with that uneveness and put in a test that would have easily secured the bronze. She has scored well with this uneveness before.

Something else went wrong. I will never believe that it had anything to do with spooking. Even if Brentina the super horse learned to talk and told me so herself. (She is such a generous horse I think she would lie to make this better too). This was something else- back pain, abdominal pain, hind end issue, breathing related, muscle cramping, something. I will give all involved the benifit of the doubt that this was unforeseen. This is not the way this horse had been going up until this point. Listen sh** happens. What this all shows us is that it can happen even to the most conscientous and revered horseperson and the Saint of a horse. It sucks that it went down like this. I wish they could have one more go to redeem themselves. Over time people will remember the better rides and this will fade. Brentina will have a good life. Debbie will still have the longest lines at the autograph signings. The US will win the medal next time.

I will still be chewing on my grain of salt and never expecting to get the straight story, because I think it is very rare that we ever do and then if we do we won’t trust it because we have been misled so many times before. So jaded.

[sascha]

@HORSEBACKRIDER;3447672

I have been surprised to see how many of the comments here are so lacking in genuine empathy for this horse and rider…I wonder what the source of such harsh and judgmental commentary is. Insecurity? I feel better about myself if I can diminish you? Resentments? I never thought you really were worthy and now I can show others what I, at least, always knew. Envy? Look how much I know, I am an expert and I should have more success in my life and riding.

Any or all of the above?

How about shock, disappointment and genuine empathy for the horse who was quite obviously not comfortable.

Also, speaking for myself, I’d like to think that the concern for the well being of the individual (horse) would override the needs of the team and that strength of character of individuals within the team would allow mistakes made to be admitted.

[kkj]

[QUOTE=HORSEBACKRIDER;3447672]
I have been surprised to see how many of the comments here are so lacking in genuine empathy for this horse and rider.

Oh, the words are there in an introductory way, offered up before some harsh judgment is propounded. Like the Southern way of skewering someone – simply add “Bless her heart” and you then can say anything.

I wonder what the source of such harsh and judgmental commentary is. Insecurity? I feel better about myself if I can diminish you? Resentments? I never thought you really were worthy and now I can show others what I, at least, always knew. Envy? Look how much I know, I am an expert and I should have more success in my life and riding.

Any or all of the above?

Forestalling the usual defenses – of course everyone can post what they want, reasonable minds can differ, discussion is useful and the point of these boards, after all.

But, there is a very unappealing and mean aspect to many of these posts, unmasking some real anger and apparently long-lingering resentments. The dressage community is not enhanced by it at all.[/QUOTE]

I’ll bite on this. It is none of those things for me. I am not insecure about my riding ability or knowledge. I am a good rider but not a world class one, and I admire and esteem those who are. I am a fan. I have no resentment. I think the people who are on the US team deserve to be there. I love watching them ride. Envy, OK I admit it. I wish I could look as good as Courtney for one test. But honestly, I have a lot of success in my life and my riding so I really am not sour grapes.

What it is—I am insulted. How stupid do you think we are? A lot of us dressage fans are good horsepeople and very knowledgable too. We know Brentina was not 100% at the selection trials. We can see the uneveness. We are not little girls playing with statue horses who want Brentina to win because she has a beautiful tail. We have had heartbreak with our horses too. We have rehabbed the tendon and suspensory injuries, delt with the hock problems, the back problems, the ulcers, the colic and more. We have delt many times with spooking horses, tense horses and yes horses that are in pain. We can tell the difference. We have tried our very best and had it turn out badly too. We love our horses and want the best for them just like Debbie does. And when something goes wrong, I hope we can be honest and tell it like it is.

[kkj]

[QUOTE=sascha;3447701]
and that strength of character of individuals within the team would allow mistakes made to be admitted.[/QUOTE]
Yes this is exactly it. When people, who you admire in part for what you perceive is their high integrity in the horseworld, do something that is misleading or dishonest, you are not OK with it.