Defensive/Aggressive Horse

This is a weird thread, I guess, but it’s on my mind.
My barn is self-care, and my horse’s next-pasture neighbors are two horses that were supposedly saved from a kill pen. One is a walking horse, the other is an OTTB. Both were severely malnourished on arrival, and were somewhat wary of people but pretty docile (as half-starved horses tend to be). The man that got them has taken good care of them. It’s been almost a year and they are both in great flesh (walking horse is almost overweight). The OTTB is honestly a stunning horse. He’s bright red chestnut with lots of chrome. Built nice, moves nice…just seems like he could really be a cool horse for eventing or hunter/jumper. He was raced nine times (I recently saw flm of one of his races and he won handily) then supposedly sent to Florida to be trained as a polo pony? Then wound up starving on a feed lot.

The horse is aggressive. He’s fine if you approach him and everything is going the way he wants, but if he nips or crowds you and you attempt to correct him or move him out of your space, he retaliates. As in…pin ears, rush, strike, bite, rear. He’s dangerous. I went into his pasture once over the summer (didn’t realize he was like this). His fly mask was askew and I wanted to fix it so it wouldn’t rub his eye. I fixed it and he nipped at me. Without thinking I growled at him and kind of waved my hand to move him away and instead, he came at me twice as hard and I had to quickly duck back through the fence to keep from being hurt.

I swore I was done with him then, and I haven’t set foot back in his pasture, nor will I. I don’t trust him. His owner and another guy who feeds for people sometimes at the barn go in with him with no issue. They don’t dote on him or love on him, but they get him fed, blanketed, etc.

He stands at the fence a lot looking over to our pasture where I’m taking care of my gelding and his mare buddy. They’re like lap dogs and there is not a mean bone in their bodies, so along with feeding there is a lot of grooming, petting, hugging, and treat-giving happening in our pasture. And the OTTB fella stands watching with ears up, and eventually I can’t help but want to go over to say hello to him.

He’s kind of wary at first of being touched, but eventually allows it and I’ll sometimes give him a treat. Today I stood there just trying to rub him and talk to him. He wants to be a little mouthy, so I discovered he likes if I play with his nose/lip a little. It seems to soothe him. But inevitably, he’ll try to take a nip (not when I’m playing with his nose, when I try to pet his neck or I’m just standing there). I’ll wave my hands at him and shush at him to tell him to back away, and he’ll pin his ears and kind of rear at me a little like he’s trying to bully me and run me off. Because I have electric fence between us, I stand my ground and continue to get bigger and more insistent that he back off which he finally will do. I stop immediately when he complies and today he licked his lips and stood and I reached out and rubbed his face and told him he was a good boy.

The man that owns the horses has tried to have a couple of different people come out to work with the horse, and both became scared of him (understandably). The man doesn’t want anyone hurt and said it’s okay, he has no plans to ride the horse and he’s just going to live his life out in a pasture. I think he’s only like 9 years old or something.

Every time I watch this horse trot across the pasture my jaw drops. He’s just lovely. I feel like he’s a horse that would thrive in a program with plenty of exercise, etc. But I also wonder if he’s just got too much of a screw loose mentally.

I have no desire to risk my own health for this man’s horse, and he hasn’t asked me to, but I just can’t help wondering if the horse could be “fixed” enough that he could be handled more and worked with more, and possibly ridden again some day? For now, my interactions will be with an electric fence between us, and they may stay that way forever. I have a lovely, kind horse, and I am happy puttering around with him. But I can’t help but want to see if I could reach this guy’s troubled brain. He seems to like people, but he gets defensive very easily. I know he was probably allowed to be a bit naughty at the track and was just manhandled enough to do what needed to be done. I would also guess he was difficult to try to retrain by non-track people who want a horse that behaves, and that’s probably how he wound up in a bad situation. I wouldn’t doubt that there are people in the world that this horse has hurt.

I don’t know what I’m asking. It’s just on my mind. Has anyone had or known a horse like this that they were able to rehab into a solid, respectful citizen? Maybe even turned them around so that they became very nice horses to be around? I would love to see that for this guy. His owner is older than I am (I turn 50 next month) and this horse could well live another 20+ years. It’d be in his best interest to get him so he’s nice to be around at least.

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It’s hard to watch stupid owners struggle with horses that have potential, but not your circus, not your monkeys.

That said, it’s impossible to tell from your description if this is a psycho aggressive horse, or just one who is assertive and playful at heart but doesn’t have boundaries. Also it’s a good reminder that sometimes when young beautiful horses end up in bad situations, it’s because of their personalities.

If I had custody of this horse, the first thing I’d do would be to check his testosterone and see if he was incompletely gelded, and also look at his race records to see if he was gelded late. Then I would get a good horse behaviorist ground work trainer in to help me evaluate and put some basics of handling in a halter. I wouldn’t mooch around his field with him loose. I have better than average groundwork skills (given that most people have almost none) but no desire to take stupid risks.

Anyhow pasture life retirement isn’t bad at all. No.horsw needs to reach his “potential.”

I have no idea if the horse could be “rehabilitated” but it’s not going to happen in the setup you described.

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This is the worst thing you can do and encourages his mouthiness and his obvious disrespect issues. It doesn’t sound like the owner does anything ( work wise) with the 2 horses? Just feeds them and meets their needs of care.

The horse is established in his role of being the alpha. I think with his past as a successful race horse and that he seems injury free , he most likely could be a solid citizen again if he was actually handled by a competent handler on a daily basis.

My first horse used to chase my brothers and their friends from his pasture and bite like a crazy thing when he was young. I had no idea but was lucky to have a young cowboy home from college give us a hand over the summer. He helped us both and that horse was changed forever ( as was I).

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This is the only answer. Not your horse, not your business. Stop messing with someone else’s horse when the owner isn’t there, especially one you know has behavioral problems. I’d be incredibly annoyed to find out someone was interacting with and trying to train one of my horses when I wasn’t there, doubly so if it was a horse coming out of a rough situation that I was still establishing a baseline with.

It’s been less than a year, considering the condition the horses came in that’s really not that much time. With more time and handling they could very well become solid citizens again, and in the meantime they’re out in a field where they can’t bother anyone. Their owner sounds like a good guy; he took in two horses in desperate need of a soft landing, got them healthy and has them behaving well enough for daily care, and is exploring options for further training. Cut him some slack.

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This is pretty harsh. There’s nothing in the post to suggest the owner isn’t doing everything right by these horses, it can take time to retrain entrenched behavioral problems and he’s had to deal with all their medical problems on top of that. Considering the horse’s background and how recently the owner got him it’s really too soon to tell.

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This isn’t your horse and you shouldn’t be feeding him treats or playing with his nose or lips. A horse that often nips (or really bites) should not be handfed, especially not by someone who has not been entrusted with the horse’s care by the owner.

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I read the OP as the owner had a “couple of people” out to try handling the horse, both who got spooked off. Owner is doing nothing beyond the basics. Owner has decided horse will live out his life as a pasture pet. He isn’t sending horse out for training or doing much himself. That’s ok. That’s his choice. OP seemed a bit disappointed or frustrated owner wasnt stepping up, hence my adjective “stupid.” But owner might indeed be making the best choice.

OP has little tiny touch of Black Stallion Syndrome and is letting themselves wonder if they could “reach” this horse because he has “promise.”

I gave some clear advice what I’d do if I had custody of a horse like this, starting with checking his testosterone levels because this is very stallion like behavior.

But I deliberately wanted to be “harsh” in that other people’s problem horses are not your responsibility. In any board situation especially self board, we can look around and see many people making mistakes, creating problems, getting bad advice, on feeding, tack, training, ground work. You can’t do anything about it unless they are paying for your advice and even then they might not follow it. Seriously not your circus not your monkeys not your responsibility to solve.

I get that this might be purely hypothetical. “We have a dangerous horse on our property and I was wondering how more experienced trainers would address that.” Fair enough question. But to extent there’s an underlying current of “I feel like I need to save this horse from himself” — nope nope nope.

Owner actually seems to be able to handle him for basics Ok.

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The OP states in their post:

I don’t see her suffering from Black Stallion Syndrome, just asking a question.

I don’t blame her for wondering, I think there has been one of those horses for all of us at one time or another that we wonder about.

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My driving mini was defensive/aggressive when I got him. He was a biter among other things. TBH when I first got him he scared the bejeebers out of me, all 34 inches of him, so I got help. Reprimanding him for biting would bring out an aggressive response and he’d bite worse/more/faster. Teaching him to stay out of and respect my space and redirecting his energy (making him MOVE if he so much as thought of biting, by move I mean forward, backwards, lunge circle, anything but towards me with teeth) took a long time and praise for his good behavior was vital, he thrives on a “good boy!” He is now a semi-solid, semi-respectful :slightly_smiling_face: citizen who is fun to be around, but he does push the boundaries and require reminder once in awhile. So I think a horse like this might be able to change (depending on the individual) but it’s not a project for the faint hearted. I’m just glad my guy was a mini and not big, or I think it would’ve been an epic fail.

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I hope it didn’t come across that I was somehow blaming or otherwise putting the owner down. I definitely didn’t intend to do that. He’s a very nice guy, and both of the horses are lucky to have him as an owner.

Regarding messing with the horse, I’m literally petting the horse over the fence. I’ve given him a treat maybe three times in the entire time he’s been on the farm. I give his pasture mate one too if I can, but the OTTB is dominant over the walking horse and he won’t come near if the OTTB is there.

I have no intention of “messing with” the horse beyond that without talking to the owner. He just mentioned to me that he was kind of disappointed that no one seemed to be able to work with the horse without getting scared of him, but he understood and doesn’t want anyone hurt. I’m almost positive if I asked him if I could start slowly working with the horse, he’d be okay with it. And I’m 100% positive he doesn’t mind me petting the horse and giving it a treat occasionally because he gives my horse and the mare that lives with him treats TWICE a day every day. And if for some reason he can’t give them treats, he gives them to ME to give to them, LOL.

The owner says the horse’s aggression is part of his breeding and the people he’s talked to who knew the horse and know about his bloodlines say he comes from horses known to be aggressive.

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You didn’t. Another poster (for some unfathomable reason) called him stupid.

He sounds like a good guy who is willing to care for pasture pets and who doesn’t want anyone to get hurt by the horse.

Just out of curiosity, do you know the aggressive horse’s breeding?

I’m afraid that if he is fancy and a good mover as well as aggressive, that his nature could be such that he is unmanageable, and that may well be why he was in a “kill pen”.

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I swear the “meanest” horse I ever knew was a mini! He was a little stud, and his owners just let him run free range all over the farm like a dog. He was a menace.

I think this fella I’m talking about would never be a cuddly type like my gelding. I wouldn’t expect him to tolerate a lot of doting and quality time. But I get the feeling he’s bored. He looks bored. And the poor walking horse with him takes the brunt of the boredom. The OTTB also plays, bites, etc. with the two in my field (one of which is another OTTB…the mare). He gets pretty rough and aggressive at times with them. The mare goes back at him and they argue back and forth over the fence. My gelding is fairly indifferent and can’t be bothered with the drama.

I always feel a little bad for the owner because BOTH of the horses have issues. He was hoping he might be able to ride the walking horse, but one of the people he had out to work with the horses tried riding that one and it flipped over on her (!!) He’s really wary of people and just acts like he’s scared of everything. So, on pretty days (like today) when people are out and we’re tacking up and riding and enjoying the trails, etc. he can’t join in. But…he knew when he got horses from the kill pen that there was a chance they’d never be anything but pets, and he’s said all along he’s fine with that. He just really likes horses and had them when he was younger. He’s super nice. I wish his horse would be nicer for him, LOL.

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I hope he finds a fellow boarder who has a second “husband” type horse that he could tootle around on.

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No, definitely not! I’m probably suffering from “Youtube Horse Trainer” syndrome, LOL. I watch so much Steve Young, Tristan Tucker, and Ryan Rose that when I encounter a horse like this I start thinking about what they would do with him. Then I want to try it and see if it works. But I don’t want to get hurt or killed in the process.

Maybe I started this thread so that people would snap me back to reality and tell me to leave the pretty (but nutty) horsey alone!

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I don’t know his breeding.

Yeah, I think you’re right. Both of the horses are kind of quirky (putting it mildly). As pretty as this horse is, if he’s physically sound I think he would have found a second career by now if he had any sense at all.

That just reminded me though. The horse did have some soundness issues a while back. I’m not sure what ever came of that. His feet are pretty awful (lots of toe, no heel, that sort of thing) so that’s not doing him any favors. Anyway, he’s been sound enough to race around the pasture and leap and buck and carry on ever since his lameness quite some time ago. BUT, the weirdest thing happened a few weeks ago. The girl who owns the mare that lives with my gelding was out and we were just standing in the pasture talking. The OTTB gelding was near the fence and he’d been there for some time. He went to walk off and he wouldn’t put his right front (I think) foot down at all! He hobbled on three legs with that right front just kind of bent and dangling. We both thought for sure the horse’s leg was broken. But then he stopped after a few seconds, stood there for another few seconds and then walked off sound as could be. We were both amazed.

Has he been seen by a vet? Pain can make an aggressive horse even more aggressive.

I think you shouldn’t have any thoughts about rehabilitating him, really.

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Yes, he’s been seen by a vet. I really don’t know what was discovered or discussed, etc. though.

I’m not seriously considering it. More of a “has anyone known a horse like this that turned out okay” kind of thing I guess. It’s just sad to see this nice man with two horses he can’t really enjoy much more than taking care of their basic needs. He’s super attentive. He drags their pasture twice a day, and has definitely fed them plenty! They got new fancy nameplates on their stalls (each pasture has two-stall barns that open right into the pasture.) They got brand new blankies for winter. I mean, they really do live a great life.

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I think whatever might be accomplished with this horse will ‘depend’ on several factors. His attitude could be what got him into his previous situation. It could have developed as he got hungrier and more food possessive. This is just what you have observed trying to give him a pet, wonder how he is if more is asked of him, outright naughty or fine, fine, until he’s not?
Some years ago I bought a 2 yr old. The owner had stretched the last bit of hay so she didn’t have to buy more, the filly came thin, hungry and very possessive of her food. She snaked her head at me a few times but then one day she really came at me, ears pinned, teeth open, fortunately I had a pitch fork in my hand, so she had a come to reckoning moment. She learned to be respectful, actually really nice, but she was young and not confirmed in her behaviour.
Your guy seems like he is pretty confirmed. I think there is usually a chance but you need the right cowboy and time and even then he may not be reliably safe.

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It may have nothing to do with how he is when riding. I have a gelding who has always been like this, I’ve had him since he was 4 and he’s 23 this year. He hates to be reprimanded and if you even raise your voice at him he’ll stomp and pin his ears and snap at you. It’s not fixable, it’s who he is. He’s a (retired now) top level show hunter and won all over the country.

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Never feed anyone else’s animals. You will be blamed if they die, whether it was your fault or not.

Do not train other people’s horses. Just imagine someone trying to do something with your horse when you are not there.

A horse like this should never be fed by hand anyway and you are teaching him to nip.

The horse does not care if he is never ridden.

He has been put in a paddock to keep him away from other people and horses. Respect that.

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