Defensive/Aggressive Horse

[Edre]

My personal experience with this:
Yes, I have known a horse like this. She was an absolute wonder under saddle. Obedient, bold, forgiving, honest, and just a lovely ride. On the ground, she would not tolerate any form of correction. You could not correct another horse near her (even a growl, “HEY!” or “Psst!!”) without her taking offense - and her form of taking offense was coming at you with full intent to get a bite out of you (or spinning to double barrel you).

Her owner did a full workover at the equine clinic. Hormone levels, pain, tumors, ulcers, and more - there was nothing that anyone could find wrong with her.

The behaviour predated the owner I knew her with, and she came from a place that, if not outright abusive, was apparently known for “rough” handling so maybe she was always like this and that handling exacerbated it, or that handling created it - I couldn’t say. But I knew her with her last owner (who kept her until she passed of age related health issues). It never got better. She was never a safe horse for the average person to handle, and even for the capable and well equipped, one slip could cause major risk. It was also a risk for farriers and vets. The owner, or the owner’s instructor, always had to be present for all things (and the instructor at the facility was the one who would turn the mare out & bring her in, after an incident with one of the staff - who was no novice - getting kicked really nastily).

OP - don’t sign up for this circus. This is not your horse, you have no skin in this game. However nice/fancy/pretty the horse is, it sounds like the owner is doing just fine by him - he’s fed, and is managed as the weather/environment dictates, and wants for nothing.
I was asked to check on the mare I talked about, above. She was coming out of a mild colic episode and was loose in the arena, the instructor wanted me to get eyes on her and see if I thought she was doing better. Went into the arena, the mare cocked her hip at me in a way I don’t really accept (don’t come at me with your butt - ever) and I did the hiss/psst! at her.}
I can tell you I have never moved so fast in my life. I had to scramble into the center of the arena (where standards/jumps/blocks were piled) to get away, and she kept coming with full intent to kick. She only stopped when I whizzed a plastic block at her bum which startled her enough to push her away.

Don’t be me. I did not get hurt, but it was pure luck. I knew this horse and I was not rough with her, it was just a verbal cue, and that was enough to get her going.

After that, I refused to do anything with the mare and told the instructor that she had no business asking anyone else to do anything with the horse either. She was just too unsafe.

[RedHorses]

“Stupid owners” was not justified, even with this additional explanation. This horse’s owner sounds like the furthest thing from stupid.

[Scribbler]

@RhythmNCruise

@jvanrens

I don’t see her suffering from Black Stallion Syndrome, just asking a question.

No, definitely not! I’m probably suffering from “Youtube Horse Trainer” syndrome, LOL. I watch so much Steve Young, Tristan Tucker, and Ryan Rose that when I encounter a horse like this I start thinking about what they would do with him. Then I want to try it and see if it works. But I don’t want to get hurt or killed in the process.

Maybe I started this thread so that people would snap me back to reality and tell me to leave the pretty (but nutty) horsey alone!

YouTube horse trainer syndrome is also dangerous:)

[barnesthenoble]

Sounds somewhat similar to a horse I had several years ago now. Big, strapping 4yo TB gelding that had been off the track about a year and not had much done with him. I was warned when I bought him that he was “angry,” and I wasn’t sure what that meant until I had him. In retrospect, it was insane that I paid anything for this horse, but he was skinny and needed his feet done and generally sad–I couldn’t leave him where he was. He was nervous around people, very much withdrawn. Would allow you to come up with him and was generally okay to handle UNTIL you needed to correct him. Initially, any corrections were like a declaration of war. Responses included rearing, striking, biting, and charging.

As best I can tell, the folks I bought him from may have flipped him over, and definitely tried to beat him into submission. By the end of my time with him, I and two other people I trust could handle him pretty damn safely and correct his behaviors, but it was imperative that the corrections be fair and impeccably timed. He could be a real lovebug with three of us that he trusted, but the slightest stress or clunky correction could be dangerous. You always had to be on. There were still good friends of mine whose horsemanship I generally trust that I would not allow to handle him for risk of him being dangerous. It was like living with a loaded gun.

After 18 months we’d gotten the behavior somewhat more under control and it became obvious that there was a chronic pain component. I’d suspected as much for a long time, but hoped as we got his feet comfier and got him a bit fitter it would resolve…it didn’t. I’d done a handful of workups on him but did not have the resources to throw a few grand at neck/back/SI etc imaging, and he was a holy terror with the vet. I ultimately decided to euthanize because he was clearly uncomfortable, and as a 17h not-yet-6yo TB he was also very destructive when bored. I was perpetually nervous about what would happen if someone meandered in to his field, if he got loose, if I got hurt and needed someone else to take over care, etc. I don’t regret it but I do miss him. I later found out from his track trainer that my horse had three full siblings that wound up diagnosed as Wobblers. I’ll never know for sure, but that explanation would definitely fit with some of the things I saw.

Based on that experience, I would not spend any time trying to fix the horse you’ve mentioned. Is it possible? Maybe. Is it worth the risk of trying? Not in my opinion. If he’s happy and fairly safe as a pasture puff, let him stay that way.

[cilla1]

I love Ryan Rose! I don’t know how he manages his business but maybe this could be a good horse to make him some advertising? Maybe he could be interested in working with him for a reasonable remuneration? I believe there’s something It can be some for this horse but I think he must be evaluated by a good professional before

[RhythmNCruise]

@SuzieQNutter

He has been put in a paddock to keep him away from other people and horses. Respect that.

No, he lives in his 1+ acre pasture with his owners other horse just like mine lives next door in his 1+ acre pasture with my friend’s mare. It’s just the set-up of the barn. He’s not been put anywhere to keep him away from anything. To care for the horse, you have to go in his pasture with him. His owner does, and the guy that helps out (who also owns other horses at the barn) does.

If anything, the gelding’s owner would welcome anyone willing to work with this horse. As said previously, he feeds the two in my pasture every day, he also feeds the old gelding on the other side of my two. He feeds by hand. I don’t mind, but I have warned him that my gelding is likely to get half of his hand in his mouth because that’s just how it is. He feeds his own horses by hand. They were both terrified of people when they came, and it was a way to gain trust. None of this dominant behavior from the OTTB was present then. He was just too run-down and scared. Now that he’s healthy, he’s got opinions, LOL.

However, in general, I do agree with your points. I don’t make a habit of feeding other people’s horses, but given the fact that this horse’s owner has no issue feeding mine (and I don’t really care, it isn’t hurting them and it makes him happy), I don’t think he’ll mind that I’ve fed his maybe a grand total of three times over the past year. It’s not a daily thing. It’s not even a monthly thing. And the horses act scared to take the treats. When I put out my hand to give them, they act ward and usually back up first then very carefully reach out and take the treat.

I do wonder what their lives were like before their owner got them. Not very nice, I’m guessing. Not only starving, but maybe some rough treatment. The walking horse is very nervous and aloof. The OTTB waffles between aloof and defensive. It’s kind of a chicken and the egg thing though. Is he defensive and aggressive because he was treated roughly or was he treated roughly because he’s aggressive? Hard to know.

Anyway, there’s no worry about me getting hurt or doing anything the owner wouldn’t like. He wants someone to work with the horse, I’m sure of that. But no one seems willing.

[RhythmNCruise]

Wow! Thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, that sounds similar to what this gelding is all about. I’m thinking he’s known some pretty rough treatment in the past. He might be a candidate for Positive Reinforcement type training.

To give you an idea of how unwilling I am to go in his pasture, one morning when I was feeding, I noticed the feed room door was open at their barn. The horses aren’t likely to go IN the feed rooms the way they’re set up, but they can reach in and grab things. Luckily, it seemed that the only things that could be grabbed were empty feed bags, which this horse was taking out and shaking and playing with. I watched for a while to make sure he didn’t get into anything that could hurt him, and I knew his owner would be there soon, so I left it. I hated doing that, but it was before work and I am always in a rush and I didn’t see anything that would cause an issue. And I just wasn’t in the mood to get stomped or bitten, LOL.

All was fine, thankfully.

[RhythmNCruise]

Yeah, wow. Thanks for sharing. I think you made the right choice for your guy, and honestly, I would have done the same. I’ve only known a few truly dangerous horses (one belonged to my good friend) and there’s just something to be said for letting a horse like that go and finally have peace. I don’t believe they can be very happy if they’re constantly on guard and defensive.

This thread is reminding me how lucky I am to have a gentle, loving horse. His pasture mate is too, and I’ve been told she used to be “a witch.” It’s hard to imagine now. I trust her almost as much as my gelding (not quite). She’s loose in the pasture with us while I tack up, groom, etc. She literally stands right beside my gelding (who is tied) and I have to move her out of the way sometimes to get to him to groom and tack up. She moves just enough to let me by. I squeeze in between these two goobers on many occasions. But she’s a love bug. She had some rough handling in her past (she’s off the track and then went to a hunter trainer who flipped her over and basically just treated her like crap). The flipping incident left her with back troubles. The only time I’d see her be snakey and upset was when she was saddled. Even the saddle pad was enough to make her go from angel to devil. Her owner did right by her and did endless tests and scans and tried everything to get her comfortable. In the end, she retired her at the age of ten. This mare, despite her back trouble (discovered the top of one vertebrae was crushed, then some kissing spine too) would try her heart out under saddle for her owner. That’s how sweet she was. Just a few weeks ago after not being ridden for over two years, my friend got on her bareback just because she misses riding her so much. And the mare was a saint.

[GraceLikeRain]

@RhythmNCruise

He’s kind of wary at first of being touched, but eventually allows it and I’ll sometimes give him a treat. Today I stood there just trying to rub him and talk to him. He wants to be a little mouthy, so I discovered he likes if I play with his nose/lip a little. It seems to soothe him. But inevitably, he’ll try to take a nip (not when I’m playing with his nose, when I try to pet his neck or I’m just standing there). I’ll wave my hands at him and shush at him to tell him to back away, and he’ll pin his ears and kind of rear at me a little like he’s trying to bully me and run me off. Because I have electric fence between us, I stand my ground and continue to get bigger and more insistent that he back off which he finally will do. I stop immediately when he complies and today he licked his lips and stood and I reached out and rubbed his face and told him he was a good boy

This type of pseudo training can easily reinforce behaviors and create a lot of confusion. Licking and chewing doesn’t always mean a horse “understands” what you think you are conveying. The owner may not know enough to set a boundary but feeding a horse and messing with their face and then flapping hands around when they get pushy isn’t training.

He’s well fed, has individuals who can competently handle him, receives adequate care, have vet and farrier services, his field is maintained, leave him alone.

He doesn’t know that his “potential” is being wasted and it sounds like he may have some ongoing soundness issues from your update. Leave him alone and be thankful you’ve got a friendly horse.

This feels like a complimentary post to the individual with the unsafe horse she wants to keep riding and rehabbing. She insists that in xyz situation horse is fine. It’s such a reminder that a potentially unsafe horse may be fine but then you get a random boarder hand feeding and flapping at your horse and what can be a stable situation unravels quickly.

If the owner knew enough he would be pissed. You know enough to be here so no more hand feeding. No more face squishing. Leave him alone.

[RhythmNCruise]

It’s COTH, so I expect responses like this. And, I’d honestly probably respond the same way to someone else, so I can’t blame you.

Let’s be clear. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve touched this horse. And I’ve given him a treat less than that. Yesterday we were unloading hay and he was watching. I picked up a handful of loose hay that was on the ground and offered it to him over the fence. He was hesitant to take it at all and then he took it gently. That’s it. I stood there talking to him a bit and reached out to pet his face. He was shy again, but eventually let me pet him, but then got a little snarky and kind of stepped towards me (almost hitting the fence) so I backed him off. He protested, but did go back.

I’ve been in horses for 36 years. I’ve run barns, taught lessons, assisted in the breeding shed handling stallions and mares, raised foals, started youngsters, restarted OTTBs, and trained horses from day one to the show ring. I’ve handled some rank horses in my day. When I was younger I was more game to risk life and limb, but I’m much more cautious now.

All this to say, I’m not some goofy, clueless boarder who goes around trying to make friends with everyone’s horsies. This horse and this man happen to be my “neighbors” at the farm and he and I talk a lot about the horses. He has never asked me if he can hand-feed my horse a treat twice a day, but he does it. He has mentioned that my horse nearly bit his hand once (my horse is just awkward at taking treats by hand, he doesn’t mean to do it). I just smiled and said that you have to be careful with him, and he still feeds him and I’m fine with it. I’d feel bad telling him to knock it off. It gives him joy, he knows to be careful, and I’m sure my horse is appreciative. I’ve noticed no change in my horse’s behavior since this started.

I have on occasion (maybe twice in a year?) tried to give a treat to the timid walking horse and refused to give one to the OTTB because I know he can be aggressive and I don’t want to reward him for it.

99% of the time I ignore the horse and am grateful he has a good owner and it’s not me, LOL.

To lay everyone’s fears to rest, don’t worry. I’m not going to try to “train” the horse with or without the owner’s knowledge. Of course, every time we interact with a horse we’re “training” it. Which is why I rarely mess with the horse. He has a tricky relationship with humans, and I don’t want to cause issues. But, for instance that day that I needed to fix his fly mask, it is good to know what he’s like and how to safely handle him. He needed that mask fixed or it was going to continue rubbing his eye and causing him pain. I would hope someone would fix my horse’s mask if it were like that. And if a horse pins its ears and threatens me, my instinct is to correct him and move him out of my space. I learned that with this horse, that is asking for trouble. I wouldn’t have known that if I hadn’t tried to help him out with the fly mask.

I don’t know. I probably shouldn’t have started this thread, but it was on my mind.

Sorry for the ramble.

[fivestrideline]

I’ll hop in, not to pile on, but to say this - I have a similar horse. If you get after him in a way that he thinks is unfair he does the pin ears and hop up in front thing - but only in the stall. He’s really quite sweet but will nip if you don’t watch him - it’s lip lip snuffle snuffle NIP. We don’t cuddle him and he only gets hand fed treats from me. Everyone else throws them in his bucket.

He’s my kissing spine horse. Who looks SO SOUND out there bossing the pasture around, but he’s definitely not. I’m working with my vet to try to find a treatable cause, but I tell you this because he looks darn sound until you really handle him. I suspect the fancy gorgeous TB at your barn is the same - some sort of neuro pain thing that pops up randomly (does he ever cow kick at nothing?).

An extensive, university or major clinic vet workup would be my prerequisite to working with this horse - and I’d be hiring a good problem horse cowboy to start. Not sure who else the owner has used, but it’d be a really good Buck Brannaman or old style Warwick Schiller type. This horse might just be rank from a bad time and poor handling, or he could be in pain like mine.

[RhythmNCruise]

Yeah, I do think you’re right. I feel like if this horse was sound, he would not have wound up in a kill pen. And I’m a big believer that a lot of behavior issues stem from pain. I haven’t ever seen him cow kick at nothing, but he did that weird three-legged limping thing once, and my friend swears she saw/heard the walking horse kick the OTTB in the head once. She said it was loud and the OTTB stopped and looked dazed for a minute. He has marks all over his face, though I can’t imagine the walking horse doing it because normally he’s running away from the OTTB. I wonder if he’s banging himself on the walls of the barn/stall?

I do think there are some factors at play with him that probably aren’t easily solvable. He’s really a lucky horse. Not many want to foot the bill to board and feed and care for a semi-aggressive pasture pet. Fortune smiled on him when this man found him.

[findeight]

Serious competition horses are often not warm, fuzzy types. Horses bred for centuries to win at all costs or die trying as well as show horses in comparatively strenuous disciplines that require physical ability and boldness, like CBs Hunter upthread, can be challenging to work around.

The very things that make them good at their jobs make them less tolerant of humans messing with them when they do not wish to be messed with. Put them in the gate or point them at a big jump, they are on it. Try to scratch their nose and it’s don’t touch me.

A boarding barn, especially one without professional grooms/ handlers, is no place for these. Horse OP describes is likely not dangerous with consistent, experienced handling. But lacking that every single time he’s handled? Not going to improve and will get worse.

This would be a 24/7/365 project I doubt OP has the time to take on and the owner may not want to follow the program. Or pay for it. If OP wants to buy the horse and take over its care, maybe reduce the aggression but it will always be there. It’s just the way he’s wired.

Speaking of money…by “been seen by the vet” does that mean a complete exam with bloodwork, observation at all 3 gaits, flexions and x ray or ultrasound as indicated? Most vets don’t carry machines capable of neck and back imaging and assuming vet did not see horse at a clinic? Or did vet just do a very basic “look see”?

Anyway, OP, any hope or success here would mean more time and money then I think you want to spend and the owner surrendering control…with at best a 50/50 chance of getting rid of the aggression. And then what? Unless you buy him, he’s going back to less experienced caregivers and will revert right back to being aggressive. Had a couple like that, around me or trained barn staff they were OK (never very friendly though). But could not be trusted around the inexperienced.

Not worth it.

[dmveventer]

I think the most you can do is recommend a local trainer or some online resources if the owner seems open to it, otherwise it’s really out of your hands. You should stop interacting with this horse entirely. No treats, no petting him over the fence, nothing. Setting aside the risk of you getting hurt, it’s really just setting the horse up to fail. Fixing these sorts of problems requires very consistent, clear handling at all times, you aren’t going to have any impact trying to train him sporadically over the fence like you have been. If the boundaries you set when you interact with the horse are different from what his owner requires, it’s just going to confuse the horse more and probably escalate his reaction.

There’s almost certainly more going on with this horse than you’re aware of, if multiple pros have declined to work with him. There’s probably a whole mess of physical issues and past trauma that would require an experienced trainer and a long stretch of time to correct. The horse is being cared for, and it doesn’t sound like his owner is in any real danger caring for him on the ground. There are way worse lives for a horse to have than living out in a field happily squandering their potential.

[SuzieQNutter]

In answer to your question, my horse, Sim, is one of those horses. I call it a high sense of self preservation.

I am an experienced horse trainer. I asked the staff where he came from. He had bitten twice and kicked out at a staff member. Those bitten, he was near the wash rack and clients all bring treats for the lesson horses. So he was taught to bite. The staff member cracked a lunge whip when he was free. He attacked. All in a week.

He was given to me, instead of paying a bill, sigh, people!

Horses teach you fairness. So I train with fairness. This horse knew NOTHING. I do mean NOTHING. He did not even know how to be a horse. Training wise was very slow and very long. He didn’t even know what an outside rein was.

I did not only have to teach him to walk while being lead, I had to teach him how a horse walks, how a horse trots, how a horse canters.

Although he was a bully, he actually needed confidence in his handler/rider and to ride he is very mellow with no buck. He bonded with me. He trusts me.

With his training it did not compute that you do that when asked, he learnt he did that in that space. I had to teach him again below the house, again down the paddock, again on the driveway. There is a lot of places on 100 acres to teach everything again and again and again.

One time in the beginning I did use the lunge whip in the house yard when he was free. He did come at me for doing so, I stopped him, explained to him he was not being punished with the whip, it was being used as an aide, everything was okay and did it again. This time he went away from the whip and was praised.

He is not an ammy horse and he is not treated as one by me. He is never given a mm. He has to do as I ask and is praised. People are now fooled that he is actually a horse. They take one look at his muscles and topline and want him just from looking at him.

The one thing I do not know how to train is how to teach a horse to neigh. That is the one thing that you will shake your head, whenever he tries. It is just wrong.

It has been easier to train Sim that it has been to train hubby.

Sim I can control with a look or a signal or a word.

Hubby I can tell daily, do not feed by hand, do not feed without a halter.

Nope, hubby is making feeds. 3 feed bins. 1 on the washing machine with Sim with his neck outstretched to an inch above a feed bin. 1 carrot in a feed bin, one carrot to Sim, one carrot in the 2nd feed bin, 1 carrot to Sim, 1 carrot in the 3rd feed bin, etc, etc, etc.

When he comes home with the 20kg carrots in the back of the ute, he feeds them from the ute, then complains he cannot get them away, to take feed bags to the feed room from the ute.

He calls them and gives them carrots out the front door. He doesn’t seem to realise that Sim attacks Dodge when he turns his back from doing that.

Daily - do not feed by hand. Do not feed without a halter on. He will go you.

Over 10 years.

I am there almost daily to keep Sim sane.

Then I went away for 3 weeks for work.

I get the phone call at the start of the second week. Sim 16.1hh. Hubby a large man, over 6 ft tall.

Sim attacked him from 12 feet away with his mouth open. He knocked him down and gave him a black eye.

What were you doing?

I was feeding him.

What did he do afterwards?

He cowered in the corner and said sorry.

So he didn’t really go for you.

Yes he did he fully went for me. (Almost shouting)

No he didn’t. If he had fully gone for you he would have reared and trampled you with his front feet and savaged you with his teeth, or if you were still standing he would have spun and double barrelled you in the head. You would be dead and we would not be having this conversation. I told you he would go for you one day.

Well I thought you meant he would have a go at me with trying to bite or something.

No I did not say he would have a go at you. I told you he would go you. DO NOT FEED BY HAND. DO NOT FEED HIM OR RUG HIM WITHOUT A HALTER ON UNTIL I GET HOME.

I have not given you these directions for any other horse on the property. I have told you Sim is different. Go and find a halter now.

He was scared of him for 2 weeks. Guess what he is doing now?

Yes feeding by hand from the ute. Calling them to the door and feeding by hand. Not using a halter.

So in answer to your question. After 10 years without that horse kicking or biting. 2 weeks with an ammie, even one he knows, he reverted back.

Do not take on a horse like this unless you are experienced and know what you are doing.

I have no way of telling you how to train a Husband. I have obviously failed.

[IdahoRider]

@RhythmNCruise

99% of the time I ignore the horse and am grateful he has a good owner and it’s not me, LOL.

Ignore horse 100% of the time and be grateful he has a good owner. Train your own horse. Even the super broke horse can learn new skills.
Sheilah

[SillyHorse]

@RhythmNCruise

I picked up a handful of loose hay that was on the ground and offered it to him over the fence.

Please stop doing stuff like this. It is not helping anything.

[findeight]

Would like to add, had two over the years that would act ugly and bite if given the opportunity. Had their papers 1 10yo TB mare (unraced)and 1 3 yo APHA. Was able to find out about sire and dam of both from former handlers and an owner.

Guess what? Both dams were…nasty bitches. So both were raised that way from the time they first stood and nursed until they were weaned and could/would act that way for everyone who worked with them. No indication of ever being abused. Neither sire had a reputation. Both were very good horses otherwise. Very successful show horses.

Bad parenting at the most impressionable age. That wont train out, careful, consistent handling minimized risk, neither would go after me after they learned it was not acceptable but I also never put myself in a position to get hurt and all grooms/ barn staff were aware. Its always a concern to own one like these.

Certainly a very bad choice for more recreational barns with lax or no procedures and no trained help.

[Warmblood1]

Well, here are the likely two scenarios - someone works with the horse and the horse improves, or someone works with the horse and gets seriously injured or killed. Personally, I think the horse has hit the jackpot and found a soft place to land without any expectations. Horses do not have to be ridden.

If you do attempt to train the horse, someone will have to go the veterinary route and do a full work up to eliminate sources of pain. This could be a huge undertaking. The odds that this OTTB is sound is very low - add in the rest (nice horse but dumped, etc) all lends to potential unsoundness and poor temperament.

Let say miracles do happen though and after a full vet work up, the horse has been deemed sound. Now you must prepare for the bronc riding that will occur as behavioral issues on the ground almost always manifest under saddle. Do you enjoy Bronc riding?

FWIW, I have worked with several and have owned one of these types. The one I owned was aggressive to all but a handful of people - those were all pros. He would challenge people and could access any sort of lack of confidence or experience the handler might have. It was almost super natural but he could read a handler immediately. I was always on my tip toes with this horse and while I could handle him, ride him, show, etc., he was always going to be a horse that required expert handling and never letting your guard down. He was manageable but the temperament was consistent. That in itself can be very tiring and after it’s all said and done and you actually survive the initial process, you may realize that you really don’t enjoy that type of relationship with a horse where you are constantly on guard.

If I were you, I’d really think about WHY I’d go through all of this risk, effort, cost, and time for a horse who is otherwise happy to not be ridden and doing well.

[RhythmNCruise]

I had to go back through my posts, because people are getting the idea that I’m hell-bent on training this horse. I’m not. I promise. Not at all. I wondered if anyone ever has, but I’ve not said that I’m going to. I did have starry-eyed optimism in that first post, speculating on whether or not I could “reach his brain” somehow. I see why people get the idea that I’m over here yearning to be this horse’s savior. I take responsibility for giving that impression. I was caught up in the moment, and many posts here brought me back to earth.

That said, I still plan to pet the horse and maybe even feed him a treat every now and then, just as we all do with each other’s horses at the barn. And if the horse gets into trouble with a fly mask or blanket or whatever, I won’t love going in to help him out, but I will do it as safely as possible. I would want someone to help my horse out in such a situation too. Anything I can do to make that sort of experience less risky would be great.