BigMama1,
I think your post is well thought out and well stated and may well represent the thinking of the officials present.
I just can’t quite agree with it. I think the use of the whip and spurs was excessive and was intended to cause pain.
But arguing about intent is a huge grey area. If that’s what the rule hangs on, that’s a big loophole.
And if I am honest with myself, my impression of whether or not this is abuse is colored by the rest of the picture.
Who were the judges? Just curious which of our esteemed officials can watch that type of abusive behavior and do nothing about it. How do they sleep at night?
It was not an FEI class. Axel Steiner mentioned that this was a National class and that was why the rider could carry a whip.
For the class she was Eliminated, they were Charlotte Trentelman at C, Freddy Leyman at B. For the previous day class, they were Cesar Torrente at C, Janet Curtis at B
On a side note, I was pretty excited at how many drop nosebands I saw as I eventually want to get one for my mare.
You, and the people that liked your posts, have nothing to worry about as long as you don’t one hand whip your horse, pony club kick them with spurs, or rip their faces off to the point where the horse is consistently behind the vertical to escape. :yes:
5 is Marginal. For a ride to be right around 50, it’s not hard to figure out that there were likely few scores above 5 and probably a few below 5.
You are brave in posting your ride, so I felt you were expecting people to look at it.
I don’t think your ride is terrible, but I also am not surprised at your score and actually think it’s a tad high. Given a score right around 60, I’d guess that you had mostly 6s and a mix of 5s and 4s and maybe a couple of 6.5/7s. I’m not going to “judge” you in this post, but if you’d like to know why I think that, I’m happy to respond via private message.
Has anyone seen a rider stopped and eliminated for excessive spurring or whipping? I wonder if the judges had encountered the issue before. Also wonder how (or if) they are instructed to draw the line. I know it is difficult, but if a judge can ring a horse out for lameness (while not a vet) with no appeal, then they should be able to act here. Even in a case like this which was not abuse in an ASPCA way, but certainly showed hits and spurring in excess and done in anger. BTW, do we know that she was eliminated for taking the hand off the reins to whip or did, perhaps, the steward find blood?
As far as the discussion here of the livestream: Since this involves what many perceive as abuse in addition to poor horsemanship and sportsmanship, I think it is proper. If people were just talking about a ride like her previous ride which was inept, but lacked the excessive punishment and anger, then it would just seem mean.
“The yanking his face after the final halt was inexcusable and was just a display of spite and frustration though. But does that technically meet the standard of “abuse” or is it just really bad behaviour.”
I’d like to address this. THIS is what I feel was abuse. This and the intentional jabbing with the spurs. Abuse is 100% laden with intent. She INTENDED to cause harm when she jerked on his mouth. Did she cause him to bleed? No. But it was every bit an act of spite.
The gal who got suspended for poor horsemanship from the Hunter world didn’t even CONNECT with her horse after he dumped her (she tried to kick him in the belly). That wouldn’t have caused blood or injury even if she had managed to kick him. And the Hunter world, known for having questionable ethics (and I come from there, so I think I’m qualified enough to say so haha) sanctioned her $5k fine and 2 month suspension http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/usef-suspends-jazz-johnson-merton-for-two-months.
Maybe that’s the issue - is “unsportsmanlike conduct” in the rulebook?
What a quiet, fluid ride. :yes: Very nice! And I love your horses leg markings.
Okay, here’s your reminder. Don’t register in a show that is live streamed because people will comment on how terrible you ride. It’s better to put your money towards training. Once you are competent you will feel differently about being filmed.
I feel like a more straightforward solution is simply don’t ride - ever, anywhere - in a fashion that exhibits taking your temper out on your horse.
On a side note - maybe those more savvy to the rules than I will know the answer to this? Is there any form of a “code of conduct” and/or sportsmanship set of rules (either in USEF or FEI)? Is that something that might be a feasible solution to situations like this?
I’m thinking of situations with schools (colleges) or work, where even if someone hasn’t explicitly violated rules, if their comportment is sufficiently considered in bad faith or otherwise poorly representing the (school, workplace, etc) they can face repercussions. Would something like this be an effective way to try to give judges a more sufficient justification to DQ mid-ride, or would there simply be too many complications with it to be reasonably implemented? (I can think of some challenges, namely the lack of specificity that would open it up to “this is too vague! This could be abused!”)
Agreed. Nice rider, nothing against that. But the quality of each movement is not on average 6’s with multiple 7+'s that would be required to be above 60% and not just 60. Your score is reflective of an average of 6’s with a few less. Not terrible when you think about it that way.
I’ve seen some people who look like Intro riders in the warm up go in the ring at Second (WAT?!) and then not be able to complete the test.
Not, “weren’t on the bit, didnt get the walk canter transitions and biffed the counter canter” but “did not have sufficient control of the equine to vaguely describe the desired pattern”.
With a shingle out, no less.
I think that overall the reason everyone is so upset is that this was not someone riding badly at training level at a local show. This woman signed up for a huge national show that is connected with a CDI and rode an FEI test, that unless this is the worst day of her life, she had no business riding. On a lovely, lovely, patient, kind horse.
And probably there is a strong undercurrent of the fact that the only reason this woman is essentially able to do this is because she’s wealthy. Your average FEI horse is not going to tolerate that kind of riding and would likely bolt/buck/kick out and promptly deposit said rider on the ground.
The very sad part to me as a long time dressage rider is that when you pull a score check, this woman has had pretty much horrible scores at all levels for several years on several horses. If most of us had done something like this our trainer would have sat us down and said STOP showing until you spend like a thousand hours on a lunge line learning to sit the trot. And heaven knows if you do show, you are going to do it at first level, not FEI.
The assumption is that this woman is able to do this because she can spend enough to find horses who tolerate the riding and trainers who will look the other way because they need the income. It’s a very difficult position for a trainer to be in. Looking at the past scores, I just don’t understand why the rider herself doesn’t take a step back and realize that she needs to change something. Given the scores, I can only imagine the comments that she is getting on her tests.
Well said!
To be honest I’m shocked that a horse routinely scoring in the 70s in GP at CDIs in Europe under an Olympian rider has the tolerance and rideability to be so patient with an unskilled amateur. I imagine that is quite rare indeed and makes him worth every penny of the very high six figures he presumably cost.
That is why Mr. Steiner nominated the horse for sainthood during the video.
Come ON man. Just no. Now I’m depressed. sigh
To be honest I’m shocked that a horse routinely scoring in the 70s in GP at CDIs in Europe under an Olympian rider has the tolerance and rideability to be so patient with an unskilled amateur. I imagine that is quite rare indeed and makes him worth every penny of the very high six figures he presumably cost.
I second this notion. I think he’s probably worth more!
I agree! If she was eliminated for one handed whipping, why did they not eliminate her the first time she did it? Why did that poor horse have to suffer through the entire test to be one handed whipped and spur jabbed and mouth yanked by the “rider”? Why is there no zero tolerance for rule breaking? I mean really, if one handed whipping is illegal, it is illegal the first time she did it. The judges and officials got it wrong. I don’t care if they got it right eventually–they allowed the horse to suffer. The poor thing had its head down and was moving its body away from her in anticipation of the whip and spur. Very very sad to watch.
DR117 makes it obligatory in competition to keep both hands on the reins at all times; DR124(2)i allows Elimination for “cruelty”.
If they eliminated her for cruelty, then at what point did they deem her “cruel”? I’m curious because I think a one handed whipping is cruel. Is one handed whipping not cruel until you do it 7 times, add a few good spur jabs and then several molar slams for spite and then its cruel? Or do you need to whip 11 times, spur repeatedly, and slam the molars twice before it’s cruel enough to eliminate?
(I also believe this was probably happening in the warmup arena and the rider should have been eliminated for cruelty in the warm up arena.)
And I am not surprised that they yanked the video. They are covering their own tracks too.
About the scores–I totally TOTALLY appreciate why the person who scored a 59 on a (arguably 59%) test is upset by the 51%. I AM TOO!!! First, there were so many movements not executed. Second, there were quality of gait issues (the horse was hopping and bucking in the canter). Third, many of the attempted movements were performed crookedly as the horse was trying to move away from where it was anticipating the whip was coming from. Fourth, submission and rider /effective use of aids issues. There is no WAY there is only 8% difference between the quality of the 51% ride and the 59% ride of the poster on this thread. Am I to understand that you can beat a horse through a test, get a bucky gait in place of canter, make a mistake on nearly every movement, not have the basics of forward, straight, impulsion, submission, etc., be ineffective as a rider and still be scored sufficient?
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