Del Mar Live Stream

[ToN_Farm]

@JenEM

How far back does the FEI results online go? I looked on their person database for 3 big US names I could think of–Linda Zang, Anne Gribbons, and Robert Dover. It shows no results for any of them, though it lists them as judges/officials/committee members etc. I’m not sure what is available on the FEI database is comprehensive, especially for older scores. I know what’s available on USE’s online results only goes back so far, mid 2000s maybe?

I found scores on the FEI.org data base as far back as 1994. Interestingly, Dover’s horse is listed but his name is not highlighted.

https://data.fei.org/Result/ResultList.aspx?p=1987246DBA88119B9060901A5CDCE4C9022C707E0A3492E96E977AC91C68231063430125CF2C899FAC704F9FCA788DFA

The USA national scores go back to circa 1992.

Is it important that the judges show CDI Fei? Lots of good older judges haven’t. Some Olympic judges haven’t.

[Jealoushe]

I’m not sure, I didn’t research just going off what that blog post said.

I think it is important they have competed at that level. How can you judge and score when you have never done it yourself?

[JenEM]

@ToN Farm

I found scores on the FEI.org data base as far back as 1994. Interestingly, Dover’s horse is listed but his name is not highlighted.

https://data.fei.org/Result/ResultList.aspx?p=1987246DBA88119B9060901A5CDCE4C9022C707E0A3492E96E977AC91C68231063430125CF2C899FAC704F9FCA788DFA

The USA national scores go back to circa 1992.

Is it important that the judges show CDI Fei? Lots of good older judges haven’t. Some Olympic judges haven’t.

Yeah, I poked around some more with other names, and jumper riders etc. Looks like after a certain point it just has Olympics, WEGs and PanAM results. And I saw some other errors, like Greg Best being listed as female. So, grain of salt on older judges who might have results from pre-2000s. Are US results back that far? I looked a pony up on USE that went to Pony Finals in the late 90s and is still going to occasional rated shows for short stirrup, and it’s not got anything listed prior to 2004. So historic records online are spotty at best, and might not be the best indicator of a judge’s qualifications.

[BigMama1]

@Samantha37

I am definitely not griping about my score. Thank you to the @Moogles for pointing out the (truth)- that it was a test of mostly 6’s, with a couple of lower marks. It is hard to see past the total score to remember to focus on the individual numbers sometimes. I thought it was fair, but seeing this ride get an 8% lower score is downright insulting, like the above poster said. And that is why I posted my video.

It’s apples and oranges to compare the two rides and that’s why just looking at scores doesn’t always give a clear picture. Your ride was pleasant and harmonious, but perhaps lacking a little in the engagement, self carriage and gaits department. The Del Mar ride was anything but harmonious, but I suspect the quality of the horse and effort put forth by him helped boost the scores a bit higher than hey should have been.

[BigMama1]

@ToN Farm

Jane Arrasmith, Iron Horse Ranch. http://www.ironhorseranchdressage.com/

That said, I do not believe we should always fault trainers. Lord knows my bad performances were not my trainers’ fault.

Agree. Should the trainer have prevented this? Of course? Could she? We have absolutely no way of knowing. Shelly Browning is presumably a fully grown adult who makes her own decisions. He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy a very competitive GP horse and perhaps she was simply determined to ride him in an upper level test, no matter what her trainer suggested.

[BigMama1]

@Silverbridge

I’m just speculating here, but it may have been removed for no reason other than that the comments about it were somewhat taking over what was designed to be a positive, promotional page for the show series. When I watched it a couple of days ago, there were more than 19,000 views and additional furious comments were being added even as I was viewing the class.

There are plenty of Facebook pages where riding discussions get contentious but that wasn’t really designed to be one of them. It evolved that way as word of this particular ride spread, so maybe they were just trying to control the conversation.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong to do so, I’m just saying that’s what it looks like to me. And I do have admin privileges on a couple of equestrian Facebook pages, myself. So maybe I’m picturing me in that role and thinking about what I’d do.

Anyway I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that the eliminated rider requested or insisted that her video be removed, or infer that she has some undue power or sway over the content. She may have asked.

But maybe the page managers felt the focus was just in general becoming too negative when they’re trying to promote the rest of the show series in a positive light. That’s kind of how it looked to me as an outsider when I went to take a look and read the comments.

He page managers have the ability to delete and / or turn off comments

[Silverbridge]

@BigMama1

He page managers have the ability to delete and / or turn off comments

Of course. But I’d guess disabling comments would just make viewers even angrier. And picking through to delete or not delete would have taken awhile. Easier just to remove the source of the pique and return to the “Great show, and thanks for everything!” vibe.

[Jealoushe]

@atlatl

You do know that there is a quite rigorous process to becoming a judge, right?

Read all about it:

Nope…never knew that whatsoever.

I thought they just filled out an application and sent it into www.wannabeadressagejudge,com and “voila”…there ya go…

[BigMama1]

@Jealoushe

I’m not sure, I didn’t research just going off what that blog post said.

I think it is important they have competed at that level. How can you judge and score when you have never done it yourself?

Aren’t there requirements for US judges to have a certain number of scores at a certain level, and update it every few years?

[yaya]

@BigMama1

Aren’t there requirements for US judges to have a certain number of scores at a certain level, and update it every few years?

There are requirements now to have scores at certain levels, but there didn’t use to be, so many older judges are grandfathered in. They do not have to update the scores once earned, but they do have to go through judge continuing education every few years.

[Scribbler]

I can’t see expecting judges to keep competing as I would think judging could easily be later career move. After you were done competing.

[Cowgirl]

@trubandloki

Disclaimer, I am not a judge and I most certainly was not there so I can not speak about what those people were thinking or saying, this is just my opinion.

The one handed whipping on the first day happened once and in a location that they might not have actually seen it happen. It is one of those things that now that you know it is there it is obvious but if you did not know it was there, not so obvious.

I was not talking about the first day. I didn’t see that test. I am talking about the first time she did it in this test! She did it multiple times in the test. She should have been stopped the first time she did it and one of the two judges saw her (not to mention the TD and Ring Steward). How many times does she get to crack his molars? How many times does she get to jab him in the ribs at full force?

Also, anyone who thinks the 51% score is a result of the quality of this horse despite the crappy riding is BLIND. The quality of this horse is GONE. He was moving around the arena crablike, protecting himself, leaning on the bit in front to stabilize it. He was not showing international quality gaits in this test. I want to know how to make a complaint about those two judges. They need to be reviewed and they need to be gone. As a non-wealthy self-supporting working adult, it is a waste of my valuable time and money to compete when the scores are so meaningless. Nor do I want to compete knowing that wealthy people are going to get higher scores no matter if they club their seven figure horse through a test and then woodshed the horse in public at the end because it didn’t go as planned. If something like that scored higher than me at a show, even if they later got eliminated, I’d be completely done with this sport no matter how fancy the horse was at one time.

[Cowgirl]

@atlatl

You need to take into account the actual tests and that it’s hard to make a score comparison between such different tests.

I-2 has 28 boxes (counting the single collective) and a total of 340 points possible.
2-3 has 32 boxes (counting the collectives) and a total of 410 points possible.

Not bothering to account for coefficients, the I-2 ride for a 50% scored, ON AVERAGE, 6.2 per box so given that the score was around 50, we can safely assume that there were more than a few scores much lower than 5.

The 2-3 ride for a 59% scored, ON AVERAGE, 7.6 per box, so probably scored lower on coefficients, and higher on rider marks. There are 2 such collectives on the 2-3 test and only 1 on the I-2 test and I think we’re all in agreement on who is the more effective rider.

I think we’re also all in agreement on which horse has the better gaits which is factored into each and every movement. The judges saw enough of the three gaits in the I-2 test to judge and score them.

Ridiculous. You can make a comparison whether the two tests were fairly judged based on the quality of the tests themselves: the 2-3 test was clearly sufficient; the I2 test was clearly insufficient and, in a big way.

[ToN_Farm]

Where are you guys seeing the 51% score for the second (the bad one) ride? All I see is an E for Elimination. The previous day ride was a 51/52.

[yaya]

The USEF Officials Evaluation: https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/4IlcjXBUkYA/members-confidential-evaluations

Maybe say you participated as a spectator? You were watching it.

[CFFarm]

@Cowgirl

I was not talking about the first day. I didn’t see that test. I am talking about the first time she did it in this test! She did it multiple times in the test. She should have been stopped the first time she did it and one of the two judges saw her (not to mention the TD and Ring Steward). How many times does she get to crack his molars? How many times does she get to jab him in the ribs at full force?

Also, anyone who thinks the 51% score is a result of the quality of this horse despite the crappy riding is BLIND. The quality of this horse is GONE. He was moving around the arena crablike, protecting himself, leaning on the bit in front to stabilize it. He was not showing international quality gaits in this test. I want to know how to make a complaint about those two judges. They need to be reviewed and they need to be gone. As a non-wealthy self-supporting working adult, it is a waste of my valuable time and money to compete when the scores are so meaningless. Nor do I want to compete knowing that wealthy people are going to get higher scores no matter if they club their seven figure horse through a test and then woodshed the horse in public at the end because it didn’t go as planned. If something like that scored higher than me at a show, even if they later got eliminated, I’d be completely done with this sport no matter how fancy the horse was at one time.

Flame suit on…to me just another clue that dressage “testing” is just becoming “horse showing” as it’s always been.

[Samantha37]

@Cowgirl

Also, anyone who thinks the 51% score is a result of the quality of this horse despite the crappy riding is BLIND. The quality of this horse is GONE. He was moving around the arena crablike, protecting himself, leaning on the bit in front to stabilize it. He was not showing international quality gaits in this test. I want to know how to make a complaint about those two judges. They need to be reviewed and they need to be gone. As a non-wealthy self-supporting working adult, it is a waste of my valuable time and money to compete when the scores are so meaningless. Nor do I want to compete knowing that wealthy people are going to get higher scores no matter if they club their seven figure horse through a test and then woodshed the horse in public at the end because it didn’t go as planned. If something like that scored higher than me at a show, even if they later got eliminated, I’d be completely done with this sport no matter how fancy the horse was at one time.

This was my thought and my big issue. Yes, we can all clearly see the quality that is there in that horse, but it is not being displayed in this test.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone on an average horse rode this like?! They would get a 30%!

[ToN_Farm]

Where did it say she got a 51% score on that second test? She got eliminated and “E” was listed on the score. Therefore, we don’t know what the score would have been had she not gotten eliminated. Did I miss something where there was a score?

[dressurpferd01]

@ToN Farm

Where did it say she got a 51% score on that second test? She got eliminated and “E” was listed on the score. Therefore, we don’t know what the score would have been had she not gotten eliminated. Did I miss something where there was a score?

Yes you did miss something. Those of us that watched the video that day, and subsequently before it was removed saw that she was scored, a 51% before later being eliminated. She wasn’t eliminated until well after her ride was over.

[atlatl]

@Cowgirl

Ridiculous. You can make a comparison whether the two tests were fairly judged based on the quality of the tests themselves: the 2-3 test was clearly sufficient; the I2 test was clearly insufficient and, in a big way.

Sigh, this is my biggest issue with this thread. There appear to be people complaining on this thread without an appreciation of the details of A) how tests are written and scored and B) how judges are trained. So while someone with that appreciation, and frankly a licensed judge could make such a comparison, few others can. I’m not a judge but am working in that direction.

Case in point; NONE of the scores in a national test are labeled “sufficient”. 5 is marginal, 6 is satisfactory.

So few take the time to read the rules or really learn about the sport. 2nd level is where collection is expected and the horse’s gaits are considered in every box in every test. That’s, IMO, what accounts for the scores of the two rides in question.