Del Mar Live Stream

[Jealoushe]

The conversation here is a lot different than whats happening on FB also.

[SendenHorse]

@Jealoushe

The conversation here is a lot different than whats happening on FB also.

how so? can you explain?

General thoughts as I have been reading:

This reminds me of the women who came forward who were sexually assulted and were tired of standing for crap. I’m tired of mistreating horses being ok. OHh its not that Badddd, really Get over it…stay quiet. Let’s remove all sources of it and pretend it didn’t happen.

(Obviously real cases of abuse- in the women and horses- clear black and white abuse which this is)

Same rhetoric and cover ups. Not cool. Don’t forget people here actively pump a lot of money into the sport and trainers.

We are your 99%. Don’t work against us. We will go else-wear.

[trubandloki]

@JustTheTicket

I appreciate that dig at my intelligence, and thank you for proving my point. I saw the whole ride and I’ve said several times that it was an atrocious ride. But how is coming on here and bitching for 28 pages about how she’s so rich and entitled and obviously suffering from mental illness, etc fixing anything? This crowd of CoTHers very much does care about anyone making tiny mistake. Have you read any other threads on here?

Again, the Horse died a long time ago. Let’s move on, ok?

I suppose if you are going to go all drama on me about my post I should point out to you that I personally have not said any of those things.

Yes, others have.

I do not care if she is rich, I have no idea about her mental state. I just think that second ride needs to be noted as something we (general horse people we) need to hold up as what is NOT supposed to happen in the ring and there is no way a ride like that should get the scores it got (before they decided to eliminate her).

It is frustrating (to me personally) that I see on facebook posts where they (the person/group posting) say that ‘this is the video that people are up in arms about’ and they show the first day video, not the second day video.

I do think that Axel needs to be reminded that all his groans and sighs are part of the commentary people are hearing.

[Sannois]

@JustTheTicket

I appreciate that dig at my intelligence, and thank you for proving my point. I saw the whole ride and I’ve said several times that it was an atrocious ride. But how is coming on here and bitching for 28 pages about how she’s so rich and entitled and obviously suffering from mental illness, etc fixing anything? This crowd of CoTHers very much does care about anyone making tiny mistake. Have you read any other threads on here?

Again, the Horse died a long time ago. Let’s move on, ok?

Sadly you seem to think the complaint on here has been mostly how much money she has, even if you are dead poor we would say how horrid a display that was. Did you read every post? I do not understand your logic. this is NOT a tiny mistake.

[Jealoushe]

@SendenHorse

how so? can you explain?

The comments on FB I saw were more attacking the rider - she should be whipped, she should never ride again, she should have her hands sawed off, etc etc.

Here it is a more rational commentary about judges, rules, abuse, etc.

[JustTheTicket]

@Sannois

Sadly you seem to think the complaint on here has been mostly how much money she has, even if you are dead poor we would say how horrid a display that was. Did you read every post? I do not understand your logic. this is NOT a tiny mistake.

READ FOR COMPREHENSION. Sadly, that is something that seems to be lost on you. Again, the ride was attrocious. She should not have been showing. He complaint on here HAS mostly been about how much money she has and how that gives her the power to do whatever she wants. Have you read any of this thread?

[SendenHorse]

k

@Jealoushe

The comments on FB I saw were more attacking the rider - she should be whipped, she should never ride again, she should have her hands sawed off, etc etc.

.yeah that is not ok!

thanks for the update. FB is crazy. I avoid it.

[trubandloki]

@JustTheTicket

READ FOR COMPREHENSION. Sadly, that is something that seems to be lost on you. Again, the ride was attrocious. She should not have been showing. He complaint on here HAS mostly been about how much money she has and how that gives her the power to do whatever she wants. Have you read any of this thread?

I am not saying there are not posts like that in this thread.
I will say that is not how I read the thread as a whole or a majority.
There are definitely certain posters who want to make that the point, true.

What worries me is people want to make this go away. People (general, not you specifically) want to say ‘stop talking about it <insert reason here>’.
This needs to be talked about.
A ride like this should not get a score like that just because the horse is an amazingly talented saint.
A ride that after it is over the rider yanks on the horse’s mouth for what seems like no reason should have a means to make the point that it is not OK.

I hope that this ride allows people to move forward and think thru a way to make this rare exception of a ride be an example of what we (horse people) are not, this is not how we treat our animals.

[netg]

@trubandloki

What worries me is people want to make this go away. People (general, not you specifically) want to say ‘stop talking about it <insert reason here>’.
This needs to be talked about.
A ride like this should not get a score like that just because the horse is an amazingly talented saint.
A ride that after it is over the rider yanks on the horse’s mouth for what seems like no reason should have a means to make the point that it is not OK.

Agreed. The shaming of the judges at the show (including ones who didn’t judge her), Axel, and others is just totally and completely inappropriate. Even the bashing of her ability to ride - who knows her situation or how it goes at home. If someone knows, they should NOT share that info publicly. It really is none of our business.

Even repeating the rider’s name over and over, looking for articles about her to infer her personality… not needed.

Let’s discuss the facts. There were mutliple clearly intentional yanks, hand removed from the reins to whip harder, and Pony Club kicks with the spurs. Are those things which should get a rider eliminated? Should rules clearly state that, so judges feel safe in doing so?
Like the horse belly-kicking video, should USEF be able to punish after the fact? Should dressage have a yellow card-type penalty for this type of behavior?

Had the judges felt comfortable ringing her out for that ride, I suspect there would still be huge amounts of discussion - and at that point, likely bullying involved most of the time there is discussion. But I think posts like trubandloki’s get to why many of us are bothered, and feel uncomfortable with the constant personal bashing of the rider we’ve never met.

[Mardi]

@Jealoushe

Axel posted on FB that WDC Management are now not going to live stream the shows this week- at the request from riders who are afraid to get blasted on Social Media.

Interesting. Yesterday’s Facebook post by the West Coast Dressage Festival says something else:

"Our live stream has quickly become a beacon for our series and for the equestrian community. We chose to stream our large production to Facebook Live in order to give everyone the opportunity to be a part of West Coast Dressage in a way that was also free. We have spent that last two shows trying different techniques to fine tune our live stream in conjunction with scheduling and guidelines of a show this size. AWCDF 1 saw only one day streamed and then we bumped ACWDF 2 to stream all three days.

We have chosen to not stream this week in order to make improvements to the stream for our final show.

We are so happy to see how passionate everyone is about the live stream and how much they love it. We cannot wait to have it back better than ever starting on Thursday, February 15th, 2018 and Friday, February 16th, 2018 with Axel Steiner commentating. We will be streaming the international ring with both national and international levels all through those two days.

Never fear though, we will not leave you completely out of the action this week! We will have our live stream of the FEI jog tomorrow, January 31, 2018 at 4 pm PST and live interviews and videos for you to tune in!

Thank you for the all the support of the equine and human competitors and of course of the festival!"

[Joanne]

If you watched the video of the rider in question as she entered the ring, halted, and saluted, then you did not see the ride that upset people. The live stream on FRIDAY picked up after she had already saluted. They did not show the resistance that Mr. Steiner commented on before the video went back to the rider. The copy of FRIDAY’s ride that is currently out there does not show her as she exited the area.

[SendenHorse]

I wonder how many people will start taking videos on the phone- just as things happened with Marianne Little when she hurt her event horse/blood in the mouth.

As we discussed many times here, public venues are an ok place to take someone’s photo or video.

I am not personally in favor of this, it is sort of creepy, but if the footage “goes away” anytime there is a problem then maybe it’s an option.

The live stream is just one way to get documentation of abuse.

General comment on live streams:

The sad reality is removing the option to see dressage such as in Del Mar takes away an oppritunity to enhance horse sports in the US and (hopefully) promote dressage (the good dressage). I love live streams and I have paid a lot of money to them to have them available. However, ethically I might consider differently if they are polluted by the whims of someoene not liking the footage. I don’t think that is ok.

Use it as a way to educate people on the judging, why things are occuring, and stop pandering to the riders and being so uber careful of everything. Seriously. This is so political and PC it’s maddening- it is counterproductive.

[Angela_Freda]

@Joanne

If you watched the video of the rider in question as she entered the ring, halted, and saluted, then you did not see the ride that upset people. The live stream on FRIDAY picked up after she had already saluted. They did not show the resistance that Mr. Steiner commented on before the video went back to the rider. The copy of FRIDAY’s ride that is currently out there does not show her as she exited the area.

This has both Thursdays and Fridays rides on it

https://www.writingofriding.com/in-the-media/the-dressage-community-has-failed-shelley-browning/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=the-dressage-community-has-failed-shelley-browning&utm_content=0&utm_campaign=PostPromoterPro

[trubandloki]

@Angela Freda

This has both Thursdays and Fridays rides on it

https://www.writingofriding.com/in-the-media/the-dressage-community-has-failed-shelley-browning/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_term=the-dressage-community-has-failed-shelley-browning&utm_content=0&utm_campaign=PostPromoterPro

I wonder why that video was chopped at the end? It is missing the post ride mouth yank.

[Angela_Freda]

@trubandloki

I wonder why that video was chopped at the end? It is missing the post ride mouth yank.

That’s what made me go looking for both of them, someone was looking at Thursdays as ‘the worst one’ and I was remembering a very distinct snatch at the reins with the left hand AFTER she halted and saluted, ie not because she got bounced because he’s moving, but intentional… I can not find Fridays test with that snatch now.

Thursday she halts, salutes and then adjusts her right spur and then tracks left at c.
Friday she halts, salutes, and then [not shown in the vid now] before she gets to C snatches with her left hand and tracks right iirc.

[etk]

@MysticOakRanch

Do realize that many of the “Committee members” (from USEF and USDF) are now stating that if the “Qualification rules” had passed, none of this would have happened. That they TRIED to solve the problem, and the membership booed them and strongly objected, and basically it is membership’s fault. I suspect they’ll bring that back as a solution - and I think MOST would agree, that will not solve the issue. As I’ve stated before (a) this specific rider already has qualifying scores, and (b) horses will just get ridden over and over and over at lower levels until some judge gives the necessary score - horse will still be cranked, yanked, and spanked, just at a lower level. It will just hold back the riders who can’t afford the fancy horses - even though they may be riding much more kindly and correctly. No problem solved.

What “qualifying scores” for this rider are you referring to? She started competing at 3rd level, then went from 4th straight to I2 . While there were some ok scores from time to time, there were many in the 50’s and even a 40. She did not systematically train up the levels as riders do in countries such as Germany or the Netherlands - she would not be competing at I2 there. In fact, when Americans go shopping in Europe, sellers are very skeptical of the claimed level of riding if they don’t know you, because it is very common for US riders to show up saying they are a PSG rider when their level over there would be considered our equivalent of 2nd level, if that. Plus, if horses will be cranked, yanked and spanked as you say, do you really want to see that happening at the highest levels of our sport? I’d rather see it at lower levels with a snaffle. I would rather see a qualifying system in place to protect these people from their delusions of grandeur and bullying (make it harder to advance if there are low scores) and protect horses until the rider manages to display some riding proficiency, otherwise we will see more of what just happened. Self-policing is only going to work until the next time this happens.

[ToN_Farm]

@etk

What “qualifying scores” for this rider are you referring to? She started competing at 3rd level, then went from 4th straight to I2 . While there were some ok scores from time to time, there were many in the 50’s and even a 40. She did not systematically train up the levels as riders do in countries such as Germany or the Netherlands - she would not be competing at I2 there. In fact, when Americans go shopping in Europe, sellers are very skeptical of the claimed level of riding if they don’t know you, because it is very common for US riders to show up saying they are a PSG rider when their level over there would be considered our equivalent of 2nd level, if that. Plus, if horses will be cranked, yanked and spanked as you say, do you really want to see that happening at the highest levels of our sport? I’d rather see it at lower levels with a snaffle. I would rather see a qualifying system in place to protect these people from their delusions of grandeur and bullying (make it harder to advance if there are low scores) and protect horses until the rider manages to display some riding proficiency, otherwise we will see more of what just happened. Self-policing is only going to work until the next time this happens.

If my math is correct, she has 57 scores at 3rd-I2. 32 (more than half) of those scores are 60%+. Most of the scores in the 50’s were high 50’s. It would have been very easy for her to take any one of those horses through 1st and 2nd to get a qualifying score if such a program were instituted. I stand alone here in thinking her scores are not shameful at all. I’d be thrilled with a high 50’s at I2. I don’t look at scores in the high 50’s at 3rd+ the same way I do if they were 1st or 2nd level. Also, don’t forget, we weren’t using the half point in those days. That would likely bring those high 50’s to 60%+.

One rule change I’d like to see that will never happen is that people shouldn’t be able to get their medals on borrowed horses.

[Calhoun]

As a AA I would not want to be live streamed and would think twice before paying fees to show if you could not opt out. When showing in my region, it is not my wish to be someone’s educational opportunity or horror the subject of a thread like this. I am there to get my personal best from the judge and hopefully a “atta girl” from the trainer. If my score is above 62% commence the happy dance. If it’s below 60%, I’m combing thru all the judge’s comments/scores on the test, then discussing with trainer. This is about my personal learning experience, not being a national example.

Two years ago the week before a show I resigned from my job due to company turmoil. I didn’t want to show and was going to cancel, the trainer said " go and be with your people and forget about work." On Friday, the first day of the show, the CEO called me three hours before my class and we had a heated conversation, then kissed and made up, I was back at the company Monday morning. I trotted down centerline and totally forgot my test, I went off course twice in the first five movements. I’m sure the entire test looked awful. My point is, you never know what’s going on in people’s lives, no you shouldn’t yank on your horse’s mouth or use the whip excessively, but maybe her trainer never made a stand on this with her, or maybe she told her if your horse pulls that crap, hit him with the whip, what’s going on is the horse’s fault not the rider. Maybe this gal has three horses in training with her and the fees are paying her mortgage, so she keeps her in dark and tells her how wonderful she is - the emperor has no clothes. There’s got to be a kinder way to tell someone there’s a better path then the one they’re on, than publicly making an example out of them and losing all civility in the process.

[theresak]

@etk

What “qualifying scores” for this rider are you referring to?

Qualifying scores for AAs at 3rd and above are 60% for regionals and for your medals. She’s qualified and gone to regionals (and placed at 3rd) a few times and has her Silver and 1/2 of her Gold scores.

I don’t imagine a “rider qualification” program in order to qualify to move up the levels would have score requirements higher than qualifying scores for regionals - 63% for TR, 62% for 1st, 61% for 2nd, and 60% for all the rest of the levels (this is for AAs and JR/YRs only). I’d much rather have a stringent national instructor, trainer, and horsemanship certification program (for all disciplines) than qualification requirements for showing.

[etk]

@ToN Farm

If my math is correct, she has 57 scores at 3rd-I2. 32 (more than half) of those scores are 60%+. Most of the scores in the 50’s were high 50’s. It would have been very easy for her to take any one of those horses through 1st and 2nd to get a qualifying score if such a program were instituted. I stand alone here in thinking her scores are not shameful at all. I’d be thrilled with a high 50’s at I2. I don’t look at scores in the high 50’s at 3rd+ the same way I do if they were 1st or 2nd level. Also, don’t forget, we weren’t using the half point in those days. That would likely bring those high 50’s to 60%+.

One rule change I’d like to see that will never happen is that people shouldn’t be able to get their medals on borrowed horses.

I would argue that if a rider can’t produce a couple of “satisfactory” scores (e.g., 65%s) they shouldn’t be permitted to move up to the next level, because “marginal” (in the 50s) does not indicate a satisfactory performance. And for each attempt under 60%, an additional 65% to be required or a move back down a level or something like that.

I agree with you re: borrowed horses (but how would you define what a borrowed horse was) - medals mean so much more if you achieve them on self-trained horses.