Del Mar Live Stream

[SendenHorse]

@Calhoun

As a AA I would not want to be live streamed and would think twice before paying fees to show if you could not opt out. When showing in my region, it is not my wish to be someone’s educational opportunity or horror the subject of a thread like this. I am there to get my personal best from the judge and hopefully a “atta girl” from the trainer. If my score is above 62% commence the happy dance. If it’s below 60%, I’m combing thru all the judge’s comments/scores on the test, then discussing with trainer. This is about my personal learning experience, not being a national example.

Two years ago the week before a show I resigned from my job due to company turmoil. I didn’t want to show and was going to cancel, the trainer said " go and be with your people and forget about work." On Friday, the first day of the show, the CEO called me three hours before my class and we had a heated conversation, then kissed and made up, I was back at the company Monday morning. I trotted down centerline and totally forgot my test, I went off course twice in the first five movements. I’m sure the entire test looked awful. My point is, you never know what’s going on in people’s lives, no you shouldn’t yank on your horse’s mouth or use the whip excessively, but maybe her trainer never made a stand on this with her, or maybe she told her if your horse pulls that crap, hit him with the whip, what’s going on is the horse’s fault not the rider. Maybe this gal has three horses in training with her and the fees are paying her mortgage, so she keeps her in dark and tells her how wonderful she is - the emperor has no clothes. There’s got to be a kinder way to tell someone there’s a better path then the one they’re on, than publicly making an example out of them and losing all civility in the process.

Did you watch the test? It seems like you did not?
I don’t think this is un-civil, the mods would have closed it if it was not ok. Have you been here much?
this is regular dialog about an upsetting event.
If she didn’t like this response, don’t haul ass on your horses’ mouth and whip it excessively. PROBLEM SOLVED!

My horse jumped out of the arena, I get it. Things happen.

That is not what we are talking about…

[Graymaresrule]

@Calhoun

As a AA I would not want to be live streamed and would think twice before paying fees to show if you could not opt out. When showing in my region, it is not my wish to be someone’s educational opportunity or horror the subject of a thread like this. I am there to get my personal best from the judge and hopefully a “atta girl” from the trainer. If my score is above 62% commence the happy dance. If it’s below 60%, I’m combing thru all the judge’s comments/scores on the test, then discussing with trainer. This is about my personal learning experience, not being a national example.

Two years ago the week before a show I resigned from my job due to company turmoil. I didn’t want to show and was going to cancel, the trainer said " go and be with your people and forget about work." On Friday, the first day of the show, the CEO called me three hours before my class and we had a heated conversation, then kissed and made up, I was back at the company Monday morning. I trotted down centerline and totally forgot my test, I went off course twice in the first five movements. I’m sure the entire test looked awful. My point is, you never know what’s going on in people’s lives, no you shouldn’t yank on your horse’s mouth or use the whip excessively, but maybe her trainer never made a stand on this with her, or maybe she told her if your horse pulls that crap, hit him with the whip, what’s going on is the horse’s fault not the rider. Maybe this gal has three horses in training with her and the fees are paying her mortgage, so she keeps her in dark and tells her how wonderful she is - the emperor has no clothes. There’s got to be a kinder way to tell someone there’s a better path then the one they’re on, than publicly making an example out of them and losing all civility in the process.

Did you watch both videos? The horse was being a saint, not pulling crap. Even AS commented that the rider was using the whip to compensate for ineffective legs while(at best) holding the horse back on a tight rein and at worst catching him in the mouth with every trot stride. When asking for the flying changes she swung her lower leg back to the rear corner of the saddle pad.

[theresak]

@etk

I would argue that if a rider can’t produce a couple of “satisfactory” scores (e.g., 65%s) they shouldn’t be permitted to move up to the next level, because “marginal” (in the 50s) does not indicate a satisfactory performance. And for each attempt under 60%, an additional 65% to be required or a move back down a level or something like that.

I agree with you re: borrowed horses (but how would you define what a borrowed horse was) - medals mean so much more if you achieve them on self-trained horses.

I respectfully disagree on both of these points.

I’m lucky enough to have a very trainable horse that has achieved upper level “success” for me, but as an AA with the money and time for one horse I do have my challenges and I want to support other AAs facing challenges.

I’ve seen friends with great dedication to dressage training and marginal horses be able to achieve bronze medal scores by the skin of their teeth. I think it was so much more impressive for my friend on the grade QH to get her bronze medal than my medal scores on a WB/TB cross with “average” gaits but more naturally uphill movement and talent. (As an aside, I do think scores lean a tiny bit too far rewarding gaits and hope it stabilizes more in the middle soon.)

I think we should really try to appropriately support AAs that are working hard within their limitations. The unfortunate case of the AA at the show in this thread is on her and her trainer and I hope they are reconsidering their approach. But we shouldn’t make it harder for the AAs with limited time and funds to have some success in the ring and allow them to progress up the levels (appropriately).

I wouldn’t mind slightly higher qualifying scores for regional championships, but I think medal scores should remain - the journey to medals is so personal and often a long time in the making that I wouldn’t want it any harder on AAs than it already is.

For borrowed horses - I plan to offer a lease to the friend referenced above if she wants to get the rest of her medal scores. Her QH has since died and she is starting over with a young horse so she may not want the lease. But if it’s an AA with their dream horse that they had to retire or that maxed out at 2nd, I don’t see a problem with them leasing a horse to get medal scores. When you think of the majority of AAs (not the super wealthy), it is a challenge for them to even afford the money and time for a lease and the lessons required to get to the show ring.

I don’t mind people leasing horses to get their scores for judging qualifications since they have to go through an entire education and testing program to qualify as well. I think the same should be required for trainers - they could lease horses to get qualifications but would still have additional educational requirements to complete to be licensed as a trainer.

Overall as a result of this AA’s ride being posted and discussed, I hope the rider and trainer are able to pass over the nasty comments. But I really hope they look at what they are doing day to day and when and why she shows. I also hope it makes a lot of other people look at their programs, trainers, and clients to see how it reflects on their standards - would they want their rides or clients’ rides recorded and if not, why?

[Sannois]

@theresak

I respectfully disagree on both of these points.

I’m lucky enough to have a very trainable horse that has achieved upper level “success” for me, but as an AA with the money and time for one horse I do have my challenges and I want to support other AAs facing challenges.

I’ve seen friends with great dedication to dressage training and marginal horses be able to achieve bronze medal scores by the skin of their teeth. I think it was so much more impressive for my friend on the grade QH to get her bronze medal than my medal scores on a WB/TB cross with “average” gaits but more naturally uphill movement and talent. (As an aside, I do think scores lean a tiny bit too far rewarding gaits and hope it stabilizes more in the middle soon.)

I think we should really try to appropriately support AAs that are working hard within their limitations. The unfortunate case of the AA at the show in this thread is on her and her trainer and I hope they are reconsidering their approach. But we shouldn’t make it harder for the AAs with limited time and funds to have some success in the ring and allow them to progress up the levels (appropriately).

I wouldn’t mind slightly higher qualifying scores for regional championships, but I think medal scores should remain - the journey to medals is so personal and often a long time in the making that I wouldn’t want it any harder on AAs than it already is.

For borrowed horses - I plan to offer a lease to the friend referenced above if she wants to get the rest of her medal scores. Her QH has since died and she is starting over with a young horse so she may not want the lease. But if it’s an AA with their dream horse that they had to retire or that maxed out at 2nd, I don’t see a problem with them leasing a horse to get medal scores. When you think of the majority of AAs (not the super wealthy), it is a challenge for them to even afford the money and time for a lease and the lessons required to get to the show ring.

I don’t mind people leasing horses to get their scores for judging qualifications since they have to go through an entire education and testing program to qualify as well. I think the same should be required for trainers - they could lease horses to get qualifications but would still have additional educational requirements to complete to be licensed as a trainer.

Overall as a result of this AA’s ride being posted and discussed, I hope the rider and trainer are able to pass over the nasty comments. But I really hope they look at what they are doing day to day and when and why she shows. I also hope it makes a lot of other people look at their programs, trainers, and clients to see how it reflects on their standards - would they want their rides or clients’ rides recorded and if not, why?

Sigh~ Again so many people are not getting it. OR, just not watching the Video’s. Nasty comments? What? do not spur and whip your horse, and jerk him in the mouth, when you have supposedly achieved an I 2 level? or any level for that matter.

[theresak]

@Sannois

Sigh~ Again so many people are not getting it. OR, just not watching the Video’s. Nasty comments? What? do not spur and whip your horse, and jerk him in the mouth, when you have supposedly achieved an I 2 level? or any level for that matter.

I meant nasty comments on FB, not here, and likely the reason the video was taken down. I think we’re all pretty reasonable here - it was an appalling ride.

[SendenHorse]

@theresak

I respectfully disagree on both of these points.

I’m lucky enough to have a very trainable horse that has achieved upper level “success” for me, but as an AA with the money and time for one horse I do have my challenges and I want to support other AAs facing challenges.

I’ve seen friends with great dedication to dressage training and marginal horses be able to achieve bronze medal scores by the skin of their teeth. I think it was so much more impressive for my friend on the grade QH to get her bronze medal than my medal scores on a WB/TB cross with “average” gaits but more naturally uphill movement and talent. (As an aside, I do think scores lean a tiny bit too far rewarding gaits and hope it stabilizes more in the middle soon.)

I think we should really try to appropriately support AAs that are working hard within their limitations. The unfortunate case of the AA at the show in this thread is on her and her trainer and I hope they are reconsidering their approach. But we shouldn’t make it harder for the AAs with limited time and funds to have some success in the ring and allow them to progress up the levels (appropriately).

I wouldn’t mind slightly higher qualifying scores for regional championships, but I think medal scores should remain - the journey to medals is so personal and often a long time in the making that I wouldn’t want it any harder on AAs than it already is.

For borrowed horses - I plan to offer a lease to the friend referenced above if she wants to get the rest of her medal scores. Her QH has since died and she is starting over with a young horse so she may not want the lease. But if it’s an AA with their dream horse that they had to retire or that maxed out at 2nd, I don’t see a problem with them leasing a horse to get medal scores. When you think of the majority of AAs (not the super wealthy), it is a challenge for them to even afford the money and time for a lease and the lessons required to get to the show ring.

Agree. Dressage in the US has a HUGE shortage of school/lesson/lease horses. I believe this contributes to the deficiencies in rider position and achievement (generally)- people ideally should have access to horses 1-2 levels above them as they progress in the journey (Not showing, riding journey).
I applaud your sharing your horse with your friend, done right it can be a win/win.

…and let’s not start about the show issues in the US- footing, sponsorship, attendance, cost, etc. Let’s make it as easy as possible (with in reason/high standards of dressage/ethics) to go to shows and support it. The industry depends on it.

Many many of my friends are doing other things now due to some of these issues. I myself have been doing more jumping, and it’s so much easier to find shows. I know it depends on geography but still…its a trend.

My hope is that abuse like this will (next time) be nipped right there, stopped, and the rider is very accountable for the actions- for the horse, for the sport, and so we all have a level playing field.

[SendenHorse]

@Sannois

Sigh~ Again so many people are not getting it. OR, just not watching the Video’s. Nasty comments? What? do not spur and whip your horse, and jerk him in the mouth, when you have supposedly achieved an I 2 level? or any level for that matter.

I KNOW!

let’s start posting screen shots spaced through the ride so we ALL know what happened and don’t project what we think occured and why its “not so bad”.

[quietann]

Just a note… and I am in agreement with everyone who says she should not have been there showing that poor horse!

I am not an MD, but I could pick out some very … odd things going on with her body. I honestly could not bear to watch the rides from start to finish, I felt so bad for the horse. BUT.

In Thursday’s ride, after her final halt, she used her right hand to lift her right leg and foot out of the stirrup, and then had trouble getting her foot back in the stirrup. This doesn’t seem like something a healthy fit rider would need to do. Maybe she had a cramp??? I dunno. It just looked weird.

Walking out of the arena … several have mentioned her “yanking” on the horse’s mouth and then patting it as soon as she was out of the ring. Nothing about those yanks looked voluntary to me. They really looked like some sort of spasm. There were other times during the ride I noticed the same thing – that for no reason I could see, her left hand would just pull sideways a couple of times.

Same ride, during the extended walk, some of the flailing she does, especially with her left hand, looks quite involuntary.

On Friday … one of the times where she was yanking and spurring her horse was preceded immediately by her left arm flying out in the same fashion. The final centerline, you see it again and again. There are some times her left leg does the same thing.

And there’s just her general tone, or lack thereof. She’s floppy way beyond what I’d expect of someone who is merely unfit (such as myself!) And worse on Friday as if she is very tired.

The horse looks confused, especially on Friday, like he can’t quite figure out if she’s giving an aid, or having some sort of spasm. He’s a good fellow, I think trying his best to take care of a rider who can’t take care of herself. A saint of a horse, in other words.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if her showing and possibly her riding career is over, and perhaps a discreet PR release will soon follow saying that it is because of “worsening health issues” or something along those lines. To go from very high-powered career woman to not even able to control your own body … is scary, scary stuff. Even if one is a hosebeast horse abuser.

I hope the horse gets a nice retirement.

[NJRider]

@Ambitious Kate

Where? I just looked on AS’s page and don’t see anything from The Maestro

Since there have been hundreds of posts since yesterday, it is kinda buried. It was posted about 23 hours ago shortly after Axel posted. You just have to go the beginning of the posts then look. For good measure, he posted it 2x.

[Jealoushe]

I honestly think she just couldn’t ride the horses movements.

[Sannois]

@theresak

I meant nasty comments on FB, not here, and likely the reason the video was taken down. I think we’re all pretty reasonable here - it was an appalling ride.

Okay, Yeah, I bet facebook is wicked. I was once raked over the coals for making alternate suggestions to declawing kittens.
Anyhoo I believe most on the Dressage forum Are good horseman, and if they watch the video do not expect to see that type of punishment on any level. And that horse is so compliant. Look at his face throughout the video. it breaks my heart, he is trying so hard to figure her out, with her conflicting and confusing signals and punishing for no reason.
Yea we have all given a quick thump or tap on the outside to wake up, but this riding …

[quietann]

@Jealoushe

I honestly think she just couldn’t ride the horses movements.

Not even a walk on a long rein, as when she was leaving the arena?

[Angela_Freda]

@quietann

Just a note… and I am in agreement with everyone who says she should not have been there showing that poor horse!

I am not an MD, but I could pick out some very … odd things going on with her body. I honestly could not bear to watch the rides from start to finish, I felt so bad for the horse. BUT.

In Thursday’s ride, after her final halt, she used her right hand to lift her right leg and foot out of the stirrup, and then had trouble getting her foot back in the stirrup. This doesn’t seem like something a healthy fit rider would need to do. Maybe she had a cramp??? I dunno. It just looked weird…

Looked to me like she adjusted her spur.

[Jealoushe]

@quietann

Not even a walk on a long rein, as when she was leaving the arena?

She was too busy ripping its face off that I saw.

[ToN_Farm]

@quietann

And there’s just her general tone, or lack thereof. She’s floppy way beyond what I’d expect of someone who is merely unfit (such as myself!) And worse on Friday as if she is very tired.

<respectfully snipped> I haven’t confirmed this, but she is 65 years old. As a senior citizen myself, I am not saying that age is an excuse for riding abuse, but it could explain some of the things you noticed, quietann. There are some riders, myself included, that would continue to try and ride while in pain.

[SendenHorse]

I don’t want to speculate why, all we can judge is what we see. that is what a show is at heart- judge that 6 mins as you see it.

I’m totally willing to hear her out, completely. Maybe she does have a reason things flaired. I have a lot of health issues, so yeah total sympathy if it’s really something she can’t help and feels terrible about. That is not a problem for me (isolated to this one thing, don’t keep showing if those issues are that systemic)

However, removing the video and not talking really don’t help us understand. She doesn’t owe us anything, no, but appreciate her POV. I’m ready to listen…

[Graymaresrule]

@ToN Farm

<respectfully snipped> I haven’t confirmed this, but she is 65 years old. As a senior citizen myself, I am not saying that age is an excuse for riding abuse, but it could explain some of the things you noticed, quietann. There are some riders, myself included, that would continue to try and ride while in pain.

I’m 68 and I know for sure I’m not the rider I was and that’s tough to admit. But I like to think I wouldn’t ride like she did, pain or not. Yes she was flopping all over the place which could well have been a fitness issue but it wasn’t a health or fitness issue that had her taking her hand off the rein and wacking the horse repeatedly. I forget which ride it wwas but there was one point when the horse was passing by the open gap at A and she hit the horse several times. I thought that horse had every right to duck out of the ring.

[Angela_Freda]

@Graymaresrule

I’m 68 and I know for sure I’m not the rider I was and that’s tough to admit. But I like to think I wouldn’t ride like she did, pain or not. Yes she was flopping all over the place which could well have been a fitness issue but it wasn’t a health or fitness issue that had her taking her hand off the rein and wacking the horse repeatedly. I forget which ride it wwas but there was one point when the horse was passing by the open gap at A and she hit the horse several times. I thought that horse had every right to duck out of the ring.

I remember that portion of the test, cause I was telling him ‘Do it! Do it!’

And I agree with the rest of your post as well.
Age doesn’t explain the kicking him with spurs or the whipping

[emipou]

@quietann

Just a note… and I am in agreement with everyone who says she should not have been there showing that poor horse!

I am not an MD, but I could pick out some very … odd things going on with her body. I honestly could not bear to watch the rides from start to finish, I felt so bad for the horse. BUT.

In Thursday’s ride, after her final halt, she used her right hand to lift her right leg and foot out of the stirrup, and then had trouble getting her foot back in the stirrup. This doesn’t seem like something a healthy fit rider would need to do. Maybe she had a cramp??? I dunno. It just looked weird.

Walking out of the arena … several have mentioned her “yanking” on the horse’s mouth and then patting it as soon as she was out of the ring. Nothing about those yanks looked voluntary to me. They really looked like some sort of spasm. There were other times during the ride I noticed the same thing – that for no reason I could see, her left hand would just pull sideways a couple of times.

Same ride, during the extended walk, some of the flailing she does, especially with her left hand, looks quite involuntary.

On Friday … one of the times where she was yanking and spurring her horse was preceded immediately by her left arm flying out in the same fashion. The final centerline, you see it again and again. There are some times her left leg does the same thing.

And there’s just her general tone, or lack thereof. She’s floppy way beyond what I’d expect of someone who is merely unfit (such as myself!) And worse on Friday as if she is very tired.

The horse looks confused, especially on Friday, like he can’t quite figure out if she’s giving an aid, or having some sort of spasm. He’s a good fellow, I think trying his best to take care of a rider who can’t take care of herself. A saint of a horse, in other words.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if her showing and possibly her riding career is over, and perhaps a discreet PR release will soon follow saying that it is because of “worsening health issues” or something along those lines. To go from very high-powered career woman to not even able to control your own body … is scary, scary stuff. Even if one is a hosebeast horse abuser.

I hope the horse gets a nice retirement.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, I’ve seen this woman riding her test on this same horse last summer at a show in Ventura. It was an awkward test to watch for everyone there - no one knew what to make of it. But it was not abusive, at least not that I can recall.

Whatever her issue is, it wasn’t just a one-time medical thing.

I hope it is over, or at least restarting at square one. If she needs to find a new home for that horse, I will happily give him the best life I can afford to give him.

[MsM]

The worst of this for me was that the judges in Friday’s test scored it at 51% before elimination. Something needs to be looked at if that ride warranted that score. Personally I suspect that the judges just did not use the lower marks of the training scale, even when warranted. While I understand being generous when a rider, new to the level, is just having difficulty, this was different. It was evident from the start that she had issues with her seat, but the excessive whipping and kicking (combined with holding him behind the vertical) would have lost any sympathy from me. If the judges cannot send a strong message that this was “insufficient” when will they? I could see the 51% for Thursdays ride as they had some nice moments and the horse performed well in spite of her. Not for the Friday ride!

I wonder if it would be possible for the rules to allow for a "warning".    If the ride is getting borderline abusive or dangerous, the judge at C could ring the bell and instruct the rider or give them a chance to withdaw.  If they continue, maybe a 2 point penalty.  If the problem occurs again, then elimination.  Perhaps judges would be more willing to follow that protocol than to eliminate at once.

BTW, I am near this woman’s age. While I have several health issues that limit my riding, none would account for a ride like that. Mainly because my brain still works reasonably well and I would understand if I was not (at that point) capable of riding a particular horse at a particular level!