Del Mar Live Stream

[Sannois]

@SendenHorse

I don’t want to speculate why, all we can judge is what we see. that is what a show is at heart- judge that 6 mins as you see it.

I’m totally willing to hear her out, completely. Maybe she does have a reason things flaired. I have a lot of health issues, so yeah total sympathy if it’s really something she can’t help and feels terrible about. That is not a problem for me (isolated to this one thing, don’t keep showing if those issues are that systemic)

However, removing the video and not talking really don’t help us understand. She doesn’t owe us anything, no, but appreciate her POV. I’m ready to listen…

Well age has nothing to do with womping the horse with the whip, or jerking his mouth. Again… If you are at that level. There is no excuse. My old trainer was 75 and still rode Grand Prix. and looked great.

[DrHB]

It takes ONE USING THEIR trained eye to distinguish between where there is “abuse” and where there is “bad riding.” Obviously, there are a lot of people on this board who have an excellent eye to do so, far better than mine might be.

I do think what is happening here qualifies as “abuse” but I also think there is a lot happening that is just pure “bad riding.”

I have seen so much worse (and not just in the US, for sure), but it takes a lot to see it when the rider has a pretty position.

[meupatdoes]

@DrHB

It takes a trained eye to distinguish between “abuse” and “bad riding.” I have seen horses spurred and cranked and yanked far more viciously in tests with “pretty” riders, who were adept at timing and concealing. And there was no public outcry, leave alone repeated condemnation across social media worldwide.

This horse is not yanked or whipped viciously with direction and intention. It is all pretty random with the exception of the whip behind the girth (which if you look closely, was not hard whipping at all, just meandering taps and slaps).

I have seen so much worse (and not just in the US, for sure), but it takes a lot to see it when the rider has a pretty position.

I’m sorry, did you just say that your trained eye has deduced this was all fine but the rest of us just cant see how fine it really is because its hard for us with our uneducated eyes to see past the pretty position?

Oh ok.

[Graymaresrule]

@meupatdoes

I’m sorry, did you just say that your trained eye has deduced this was all fine but the rest of us just cant see how fine it really is because its hard for us with our uneducated eyes to see past the pretty position?

Oh ok.

Yeah right

[SendenHorse]

@Sannois

Well age has nothing to do with womping the horse with the whip, or jerking his mouth. Again… If you are at that level. There is no excuse. My old trainer was 75 and still rode Grand Prix. and looked great.

I didn’t say age, I was responding to the person that talked about health issues, if it was some sort of flair such as MS??? I don’t really THINK so, but another poster started that idea and I wanted to expand on it since I would prefer it not be abuse, I do agree with you, I’ve said many times.

[SendenHorse]

@DrHB

It takes a trained eye to distinguish between “abuse” and “bad riding.” I have seen horses spurred and cranked and yanked far more viciously in tests with “pretty” riders, who were adept at timing and concealing. And there was no public outcry, leave alone repeated condemnation across social media worldwide.

This horse is not yanked or whipped viciously with direction and intention. It is all pretty random with the exception of the whip behind the girth (which if you look closely, was not hard whipping at all, just meandering taps and slaps).

I have seen so much worse (and not just in the US, for sure), but it takes a lot to see it when the rider has a pretty position.

hmmmmmmmm…yeah my eye is not a problem. I know what I see. thanks for insulting everyone though,

[J-Lu]

@Manni01

to ask her to change her opinion???

No, to ask her to EXPLAIN her opinion. If a judge is on Facebook complaining about people complaining about a ride and a score at a recognized show, that judge should be able to explain her opinions and justify the scores. I expect that. How strange that you think I asked her to change her opinion. Do you ask judges to change their opinion?

[J-Lu]

@tm

You know Axel’s wife frequents these boards, don’t you?

And?

[J-Lu]

@tm

You know Axel’s wife frequents these boards, don’t you?

PS. I know who you are.

[Ambitious_Kate]

@DrHB

It takes a trained eye to distinguish between “abuse” and “bad riding.” I have seen horses spurred and cranked and yanked far more viciously in tests with “pretty” riders, who were adept at timing and concealing. And there was no public outcry, leave alone repeated condemnation across social media worldwide.

This horse is not yanked or whipped viciously with direction and intention. It is all pretty random with the exception of the whip behind the girth (which if you look closely, was not hard whipping at all, just meandering taps and slaps).

I have seen so much worse (and not just in the US, for sure), but it takes a lot to see it when the rider has a pretty position.

OMG, what planet were you watching from? I can’t stop laughing. What? Okay, us unedumacated numkins just can’t see closely like you can, the meandering taps and slaps. Mayhaps tickles? Did she cajole? Whine and plead? Flutters and pickings? Oh, my.

[J-Lu]

@tm

Sannois, I think the difference is the number of people involved in the pile-on. People say things on line that are far more vicious than anything that might be said in person. If you were shocked at ringside, in person, and you walked up to the individual in question, I dare say that your words would be much more moderated that what I’ve read in this thread. And even if they weren’t, you would be one person, not the thousands that sit in judgement at computers, all at once. On line, everyone’s voice and emotion is amplified and unmodulated. Hearing the combined voices of the internet is like standing next to the speakers at a rock concert in comparison… Using the collective voice is great for making changes in society. But an onslaught like this, the tribe ganging up against an individual, has been know to drive vulnerable souls to suicide.

The reaction to this incident has caused a number of adult amateurs that I know to rethink their show plans for this year… Nobody wants to be the person that this happens to next. I hate to think that it will also cause sponsors and show managers to rethink their broadcast plans, after we have lobbied so hard to be able to have competitions live streamed.

Dear TM,

I disagree with you very much.

I have NEVER seen such a ride with an AA. Not with AAs who purchased GP schoolmasters nor horses form Europe. I have no sympathy for the AAs you know who rethink their show plans next year. The AAs I know listen to themselves, their horses, and their trainers to formulate their show plans.

If sponsors or show managers wish to pull out over one obviously bad ride, they don’t support the sport. If their support is so tenuous, what do you suggest to prevent such rides-to prevent this woman from riding her horse at a televised event? What will you do to keep the publicity for everyone else who rode at this event? Lastly, if their support is so tenuous, why do you wish them to support the sport? They should be replaced.

I posit that if this was a low level rider trying to qualify for third level on an average WB, your opinion would be different.

[J-Lu]

@tm

Like I’ve already mentioned, these are competent, dedicated amateur riders, to whom the well being of their horses is everything. I respect these riders for how hard they work at this sport - and how well they ride! It surprised and saddened me to hear riders of their skill level voice their worries.

I don’t believe this at all. If they are competent riders and don’t ride as poorly as whatsherhame does, they should be fine and know it. If they are so nervous…they are obviously insecure about something and perhaps shouldn’t be showing at such level. Why does showing at their level make them insecure? Do they have bad trainers?

[Manni01]

@J-Lu

No, to ask her to EXPLAIN her opinion. If a judge is on Facebook complaining about people complaining about a ride and a score at a recognized show, that judge should be able to explain her opinions and justify the scores. I expect that. How strange that you think I asked her to change her opinion. Do you ask judges to change their opinion?

No I sure don’t. So did she answer??

[keysfins]

@DrHB

It takes a trained eye to distinguish between “abuse” and “bad riding.” I have seen horses spurred and cranked and yanked far more viciously in tests with “pretty” riders, who were adept at timing and concealing. And there was no public outcry, leave alone repeated condemnation across social media worldwide.

This horse is not yanked or whipped viciously with direction and intention. It is all pretty random with the exception of the whip behind the girth (which if you look closely, was not hard whipping at all, just meandering taps and slaps).

I have seen so much worse (and not just in the US, for sure), but it takes a lot to see it when the rider has a pretty position.

I will ignore the first part of your post as others have already commented on the back-handed dig that one must have a “trained eye” to distinguish between abuse and bad riding. Makes little difference to the horse, who has a trained eye and who does not.

However, I will comment on the part that I took the liberty of bolding. If your position is that the rider’s actions were not abusive to the horse because “It is all pretty random…”, I would reply then that the horse has no way of anticipating if he shall be rewarded by the removal or decrease of the aid, or if he will be “randomly” punished by spurs thumping his sides, hands snatching on his mouth or with one handed wallops of the whip.

Do you really think it is “less bad” for the horse because the abuse is “random”? To my thinking, if I were to agree that the abusive riding was made up of “random acts”, it makes the whole thing even WORSE for the horse! The horse has NO way of knowing which behavior he tries to perform will be rewarded or punished. And yet, he continues to take the abuses of the rider, and does what he is asked.

If you do do some reading on operant conditioning, classical conditioning and schedules of reinforcement, your “trained eyes” might expand your view of abusive riding vs. bad riding. The very typical example used to explain a Random and Intermittent Reinforcement (RIR) schedule is that of a slot machine. Humans play, and continue to play the slots, because every now and then, the person receives a reward, it is a random occurrence. The person never knows when it will be or how large the reward will be, size and rate of the wins are intermittent with no fixed interval, so the person continues to offer the behavior of pulling the slot machine arm. The next pull could mean a huge jackpot!

One of the ways to keep an animal, whether human or domestic, highly motivated to perform a behavior, is to use the RIR schedule of rewards. It is more motivating than even “one reward for one pull”, in the slot machine example.

Flip that around with a punishment in place of the reward. What if each time a person pulled the slot machine, there was a chance he would get zapped by a shock (punished). For how long would the human voluntarily continue to pull the slot machine arm? It would not take very many “punishments” before the person stopped and left the slot machine.

The horse in this discussion does not have the option of voluntarily leaving to escape the random punishment. Well, he could dump the rider, but his “try” is too big, his heart is too generous, and he is too obedient to protect himself. So tell me, please, from your perspective with “trained eyes”, how does this horse in this scenario discern between “abuse” and “bad riding”? There is no logical “behavior >> consequence” connection for him to understand with random punishment.

No matter how he tries to do what the rider asks, he is punished. Even when his “job” is done after the final halt.

I am posting only about the welfare of the horse. Details about the rider, what actions she did or did not do, her motivations—— not important when the first priority is the welfare of the horse. That horse did not just have a “bad rider”, that horse was subjected to a repeatedly abusive rider.

To my untrained eye, I believe there’s a difference. But I would defer to those with eyes trained better than mine.
/sarcasm/

[keysfins]

@meupatdoes

I’m sorry, did you just say that your trained eye has deduced this was all fine but the rest of us just cant see how fine it really is because its hard for us with our uneducated eyes to see past the pretty position?

Oh ok.

BTW, I this post.

[skydy]

@x-halt-salute

Thank you for so clearly stating the most egregious problems with that blog post. A persuasive writing style and appeal to intuitive reactions to that ride do not make up for the foundational misunderstandings upon which most of the post’s arguments are built…

:eek: Surely no one considers that blog to be written in a “persuasive writing style”?
What you describe as “persuasive writing” reads as very ill considered, adolescent, verging on the hysterical writing, to most adult people that ride, write, or are familiar with either endeavor.

I realize that you don’t find the blog persuasively written, in all it’s drama and hyperbole. Do you really think there are intelligent people that are persuaded by that poorly written nonsense? I hope they’re not.

It is too bad if it is true that USDF dressage is to be hidden from live stream view on the internet because people have voiced an opinion about what, to most people, looks like a very problematic ride. Is the U.S. now to be taking its form from the old U.S.S.R.? Come on, there is no valid excuse to hide Dressage from public view.

There is much commentary from the peanut gallery all over the world when people watch the WEG and the Olympics, and when here the USDF “championships” Devon etc… are discussed online. Everyone has an opinion and there are plenty of amateurs riding in all of those venues. This was a ride which should have been noticed and commented upon, and it was.

Let’s not join the countries that shelter their wealthy (or anyone else) from opinions given in the manner of lawful free speech.

[Angela_Freda]

@SendenHorse

I didn’t say age, I was responding to the person that talked about health issues, if it was some sort of flair such as MS??? I don’t really THINK so, but another poster started that idea and I wanted to expand on it since I would prefer it not be abuse, I do agree with you, I’ve said many times.

Expanding on the ‘medical condition’ theory some more:

Even IF her hitting him with the whip [one handed by taking the hand off the reins= conscious decision to hit him with that kind of force requiring removing reins from hand =/= involuntary hiccup of medical condition afaik] was due to a medical issue, it could still be considered abusive.
Same with snatching him in the mouth with reins and hauling leg off to whomp him with a spurred heel.

IF you’re having a medical issue, stop your test, don’t enter the arena, don’t get on the horse.
Do you really want people to see you riding like that, even if it’s a medical issue? Do you not think that riding a horse like that, even if due to a medical issue, is fair to him? Is it not un-training him or training him to resent being ridden if you decide to ride him in a physical condition that gives him a less than honest and fair [to him] ride, that doesn’t get ‘mistaken’ for abusive??

[CFFarm]

@theresak

I respectfully disagree on both of these points.

I’m lucky enough to have a very trainable horse that has achieved upper level “success” for me, but as an AA with the money and time for one horse I do have my challenges and I want to support other AAs facing challenges.

I’ve seen friends with great dedication to dressage training and marginal horses be able to achieve bronze medal scores by the skin of their teeth. I think it was so much more impressive for my friend on the grade QH to get her bronze medal than my medal scores on a WB/TB cross with “average” gaits but more naturally uphill movement and talent. (As an aside, I do think scores lean a tiny bit too far rewarding gaits and hope it stabilizes more in the middle soon.)

I think we should really try to appropriately support AAs that are working hard within their limitations. The unfortunate case of the AA at the show in this thread is on her and her trainer and I hope they are reconsidering their approach. But we shouldn’t make it harder for the AAs with limited time and funds to have some success in the ring and allow them to progress up the levels (appropriately).

I wouldn’t mind slightly higher qualifying scores for regional championships, but I think medal scores should remain - the journey to medals is so personal and often a long time in the making that I wouldn’t want it any harder on AAs than it already is.

For borrowed horses - I plan to offer a lease to the friend referenced above if she wants to get the rest of her medal scores. Her QH has since died and she is starting over with a young horse so she may not want the lease. But if it’s an AA with their dream horse that they had to retire or that maxed out at 2nd, I don’t see a problem with them leasing a horse to get medal scores. When you think of the majority of AAs (not the super wealthy), it is a challenge for them to even afford the money and time for a lease and the lessons required to get to the show ring.

I don’t mind people leasing horses to get their scores for judging qualifications since they have to go through an entire education and testing program to qualify as well. I think the same should be required for trainers - they could lease horses to get qualifications but would still have additional educational requirements to complete to be licensed as a trainer.

Overall as a result of this AA’s ride being posted and discussed, I hope the rider and trainer are able to pass over the nasty comments. But I really hope they look at what they are doing day to day and when and why she shows. I also hope it makes a lot of other people look at their programs, trainers, and clients to see how it reflects on their standards - would they want their rides or clients’ rides recorded and if not, why?

No ribbon or medal is worth the treatment this horse endured. Even for 7 minutes. The dressage judging community should be very embarrassed that this ride was allowed to continue as long as it was. Watch FRIDAY"S test people…even with it not all there…it more than just bad riding. Watch the ride and tell me you would lend her your horse.

[Youbetcha]

Haven’t read all the posts so I apologize if this is a redundant question, but has the rider in question or her trainer provided any comment(s) about her ride? With all this attention just wonder if there are any actual “answers” from either of them. Doesn’t change what happened on Thurs/Fri rides, but insight into how we got here would be helpful.

[CFFarm]

They don’t owe anyone an explanation. Just an apology to the horse. IMHO the judges need to explain.