Didn’t say they “owe” anyone anything, just wondering if they provided any comments. There’s a lot of attention to this matter and like I said insight from them might be helpful. I certainly don’t expect to hear any comments, but wondering if there had been any made.
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Oh I totally agree. I think this is just a tangent, but I suppose if this board is going to jump into theories I might as well go along for the ride.
I honestly don’t think it WAS medical, since her % scores are very low over many years It’s just leaving the door open for explanation. I am totally willing to hear out the rider.
I still think we need to focus on horse welfare, that is the heart of this issue for me. I don’t care what level, who the rider is, etc.
the more I think about this cover up, the angrier I am getting. Maybe I shouldn’t have expected better, but there is a real disconnect in here somewhere.
This could feed into why US dressage isn’t very strong as realted to the world stage. The judges can’t even call out a poor seat in an AA, so she coasts along. No one is accoutnable to ride well. Then the horses’ suffer and we (generally) produce poor quality tests. (This ignores the abuse- I’m talking more about how we stack up to other countries. we don’t look very hot, if you ask me).
Get a good seat or don’t ride FEI. this isn’t hard. Abuse happens to over-compensate.
The judges should really not be allowing this on so many levels. it sends a very bad message.
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I agree completely with Heather!
reactions of some of us to the recent video of an amateur in an I2 test at a National show; that generated allot of controversy. Since then; Axel Stiener has come out against those of us who critiqued this video; and “victimized” the rider. This is Heather’s response:
Heather Moffett "
"This term ‘cyberbullying’ needs some clarification. In my book, cyber bullying is targeted at one specific person, usually by just a few or only one individual/s, with the attacks being extremely personal and intended to harm the victim, by mental persecution, usually over an extended period, even resulting in the victim’s suicide. This should rightly be condemned on every count.
But when someone who puts themselves in the public eye through competing or even posting videos of themselves on the Net, then they open themselves up to criticism by the general public. Add blatant cruelty to an animal to the mix, and the result is public OUTRAGE. Not CYBERBULLYING.
It angers me greatly that the real victims of cyberbullying are having their plight watered down by the term being used to describe the reactions of those who are angered and disgusted at the blatant abuse of horses, whether it be in rolkur, the ‘Big Lick’, some forms of Western riding, or abuse in Endurance riding. Without public outcry, these cruel activities will carry on as before, ignored or even condoned by judges and authorities.
I am being pilloried for my part in this ‘cyberbullying’, but this is a long way from the first time. While I can still draw breath, NOTHING will stop me from standing up for the horse."
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Well if we’re going to entertain tangents… this is why people call out Maestro, trainer extraordinaire NP.
In Dressage, in any equine endeavor, coasting isn’t what we all should advocate nor encourage.
Doing your homework, building a solid foundation as a rider and trainer is hard work that takes years of countless hours.
To pretend otherwise, to entertain those who pretend otherwise, harms us al in the end.
[B]“Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and once it has done so, he/she will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson
And I agree with you on the cover up, it’s almost worse than the actual ‘crime’.
It sets a tone that I prefer not to associate with.[/B]
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Not that I have seen and I have read all the posts.
(And before I get pounced on with more ‘she does not owe us anything’, I am not saying the rider or trainer need to say anything, I am simply asking a direct question.)
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[QUOTE=trubandloki;n10009675]
Not that I have seen and I have read all the posts.
Thank you!
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AFAIK no, and I would be surprised if either one did as there really isn’t anything they could say that wouldn’t be torn to shreds. They are probably just wanting this thing to end.
Does anyone know if she is entered for the next show?
ETA Doesn’t seem so https://www.horseshowoffice.com/info/2018/37-44/ridetimes.pdf
I agree the judges owe a bit of an explanation.
A %51 on that ride is shocking.
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Right, and I’m really tired of discussing Nick, but yes I called that riding abusive to the horse at least a few times.
I’ve been trying to stick to the ride as seen in the video, others have brought in reasons but I prefer not to speculate. We really have no idea what goes on at home.
It’s a real shame the social media platform seems to be more effective in causing change in the HJ world, but not in eventing or dressage abuse cases.
Anyways, I’ll bring my phone ready to film, and as I said I’m brushing up on the rules so I am prepared to report. Not that I am in CA, but it’s all can do from here.
Also, continue to ride and show in an ethical way on my own horses.
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So we all agree that the rider is bad and that the horse is a saint. Now what? What can be done to prevent this sort of thing happening in the future?
Just a thought from a green dressage newbie (If I’m wrong or this won’t work for some reason, please set me straight, especially those of you who have scribed or judged):
But it seems that in scoring, the ride, for both horse and rider, is judged as a unit for each movement, and a saintly, well-trained and knowledgeable horse can bring up the score of a terrible, abusive rider, to the point where the rider may not feel or understand just how bad they are. Is this correct?
Would it help to draw a very, very firm separation for the scores for of each participant in the ride, and allow movement up levels for rider and horse separately? For example, a rider may be horrible, with wobbly legs spurring unintentionally, jerking on reins with hands and legs all over the place, letting go of reins to whack-whip, “aids” way out of proper position and double-boot stab-spurring – and this sort of ride could be scored in the 10’s or 20’s or so, and yet the horse was wonderful and trying hard to understand despite the rider’s rotten behavior/position/aids, and possibly be scored around higher, maybe even 60-65ish.
In this scheme, the rider would not be allowed to move on up levels, but the horse, with another rider who has scored well enough to move up, could do so. Advancement for horse or rider would be independent and based on the knowledge/skill of each, and each would be able to advance based on demonstrated skill, and only to the next level, not jumping past levels?
And somewhere in there, shouldn’t kindness or harmony between horse and rider be evaluated?
Dressage means training, and so wouldn’t it also mean training for both horse and rider? Is this a completely kooky idea?
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I’ve never thought Nick Peronace was abusive. He is actually a shining example that it is possible to be completely incompetent without being abusive at all.
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That could be a whole nother discussion, watching him trying to teach that poor mare piaffe in hand looks debatable. When he is riding he just looks ineffective.
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I did not say NP was abusive, I was addressing the riders and rider as a trainer of the horse they ride, foundation
On the other hand in the case of NP, and at the risk of derailment of this thread, I do think asking a horse to piaffe and perform other moves he thinks he’s asking and getting, when the horse is not physically fit to do so and you are not educated in how to train them to do so, is not exactly humane.
More generally, if we start ignoring those who are not doing things correctly, where does it stop? IF we are called a bully for pointing out the obvious, what dangers does that present?
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I consider that abusive, yes, to ask a horse to piaffe and do a 4th level test when being ridden inverted. But I don’t really want to get into that again.
To your point here, I think to be called a bully when we are not is a serious problem. It cheapens the actual bullying- online, in person harassent, and people just simply ARE NOT LISTENING. As I said, that also weakens the US position in dressage- we can’t be competitive if bad riding like this isn’t addressed and improved. And it’s also terrible for horse welfare.
As I also said somewhere here this week:
I liken this to the sex scandals where the women were seen as troublemakers but there was a reason for them to be saying things that were dismissed. To be working against it is to be complicient in allowing these abuses to happen.
If you don’t want to help, fine, but don’t prevent us from being heard. It’s not hard. Don’t work against us and make it 200% worse.
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Sorry, I was using “persuasive writing style” as it is commonly used in the classroom to describe any writing intended to persuade someone to adopt a position or take an action (regardless of whether it does this successfully or credibly or with any maturity). Under a definition that is broad enough to classify a penis-pill spam email or a passive-aggressive treatise about office fridge etiquette as examples of “persuasive writing style”. Intelligent people aren’t persuaded by these things, but hysterics and poorly written nonsense do seem to sway a certain segment of the equestrian community … I find that blog to be unreadable, but alas I know a few riders who think it is magnificent. :no:
I’m in complete agreement that taking down/potentially backing away from live streaming is a poor and misguided response to the internet outcry, and that anyone who is observed behaving punitively and abusively toward a horse doesn’t deserve protection from consequent criticism (whether that’s from a couple of railbirds or an internet full of angry equestrians).
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Can we leave NP out of this thread…he gets enough attention in his own thread lol
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euro dressage is not known as exactly the best of the best in dressage journalism. Fluff pieces like Noell Floyd of the HJ world. I’ve been following astrid since the early 90s, this isn’t exactly new. I’m a bit amazed she is getting this much attention, but whatever-- the internet is full of random voices thinking they have some sort of clout and reputation.
If any AAs back out of the sport because of this thing, then they fundamentally misunderstand what this is about, there is nothing we can say to be more clear. They just aren’t paying attention and reacting emotionally.
Phones are banned at some concerts now-(ie you have to actually give your phone at check in) and also others ban recording…
do you (generally) know if recordings are starting to be banned at competitions? I know that even the olympics and WC have a lot of phone recorded segments. On a commerical level it makes sense to ban footage to sell live streaming, and control content. it’s an interesting question, and I think relevant here.
I’d be more worried about a random internet weirdo with a phone than the live stream. Axel didn’t trash the rider. You don’t know who is taking video. way creepier.
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It’s not eurodressage that’s getting all the attention, it is Erica Franz’s blog, Writing of Riding.
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sorry- there are two articles being discussed in three threads, so I was confused. This euro dressage post was shown several times as well. I don’t think there is any issue with her thread, I agree with many of her ideas
Back to eurodressage:
This is the quote that I have a problem with
. I very much doubt that this is deliberate, nobody gets up in the morning with the explicit intention of inflicting pain on their mount. The simple fact of the matter is that we make mistakes.
(MY MISTAKES DON"T LOOK LIKE THIS, DO YOURS? SERIOUSLY!)
We have all seen some examples of very unfortunate riding shared on social media.
We are outraged and disgusted. “Yet another example”, we think “of an innocent horse being made to suffer!”, and it gives us a small sense of satisfaction that we can hit the “share” button and vent our feelings, because, we feel, this way we can “make a difference”. “Name and shame”, we think, so that this person has pointed out to them the errors of his or her ways and will thus transform from horse abuser into a caring and sympathetic ride
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The opening and closing of that article, and a response:
When a partner steps on your toe while dancing, you shrug it off and keep going. When a partner gets frustrated that his ineffectual lead can’t be followed and starts getting rough, you often excuse yourself and quietly warn your friends about the pain he inflicted. Horses can’t bow out gracefully or avoid rough leaders, so the only ones who are able to point out unfair or punitive partners in the ring are equestrians who happen to observe from the sidelines, the trainer’s post, the judges box, or maybe now the livestream.
If we want dressage to be an art form, a partnership that diminishes pain, and a dance, then we can absolutely accept that unintentional harm happens occasionally as we and our equine partners learn, but at the same time still expect riders to behave with the intent of minimizing that harm and take responsibility for their own emotions and actions.
The very most basic lesson of dressage I leaned from the trainers I worked with when I took up this discipline was that ‘ability to control negative emotions’ in my behavior toward my horse was a pre-requisite for having a positive and productive ride. It is bedrock beneath the base of the training pyramid, not some fluffy extra optional pie-in-the-sky desideratum. Few beliefs are shared among all equestrians, but fairness to the horse comes awfully close to being a universal ideal. Why should we suspend accountability for violating such a fundamental tenet of horsemanship just because the mistakes we see more commonly are innocent?
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