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[CrowneDragon]

[QUOTE=crazyeventer;7193308]
I would like to run 3* and I would hopefully do so with this foal.[/QUOTE]

Sorry I asked a question that you had addressed in your OP!
I agree with BFNE that you should really consider a full TB to get the athleticism, speed, and gallop you need for an upper level horse. You can breed a 3* mare to a 3* stallion and you still aren’t guaranteed a 3* horse, and when you start with a pony that herself needs a fair bit of “improvement” to be an upper level horse, it is even more of a gamble.
I would look for a stallion that REALLY stamps his foals, so you have a little more confidence in what you are going to get. Salute the Truth is lovely, but I don’t know much about his offspring or temperament, so hopefully others will continue to chime in regarding him.
Good luck!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=goodpony;7193373]
I know this pony-she is a SUPER Pony (so is her kid)-You might look at Edgar’s Pablito—the offpring Ive seen have been VERY consistent and pretty with the attributes you’re looking for. The one hot one I know for a fact came out of an extremely difficult mare still scored in the 70s at her 2nd Level debut as well as eventing through Prelim-there are others. The one that I owned was extremely AA friendly is now competing I1 with her amateur owner–she could jump plenty too.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think he could produce a 3* eventer crossed on this mare?

I like Pablito quite a bit and he is on the lists as potential sires for two of my TB mares but I consider him low on the blood percentage and wouldn’t cross him on anything other than a full TB mare aiming at UL eventing. He is nice but I don’t see him giving her the gallop needed. But you seem to know him better. I know he had one offspring go to the 2* level but not sure he has had any 3* offspring.

[goodpony]

The two mares I know personally are nearly identical in type/conformation-both are quite modern leggy and uphill with exceptional jumping talent/scope-they look like clones. The one that belongs to a friend is finished the season at prelim in the ribbons with minimal milage. The one that I sold does dressage–but she could run and jump just fine. I think he would be a very nice match (based on the type and consistency that I have seen) for this mare–but Ive also watched this pony for years–she is hugely athletic, correct and talented over the fences and in the dressage. I think they could get lucky.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=goodpony;7193427]
The two mares I know personally are nearly identical in type/conformation-both are quite modern leggy and uphill with exceptional jumping talent/scope-they look like clones. The one that belongs to a friend is finished the season at prelim in the ribbons with minimal milage. The one that I sold does dressage–but she could run and jump just fine. I think he would be a very nice match (based on the type and consistency that I have seen) for this mare–but Ive also watched this pony for years–she is hugely athletic, correct and talented over the fences and in the dressage. I think they could get lucky.[/QUOTE]

good to know. Thanks!

[ThirdCharm]

No matter what you breed to, you have a pretty reasonable risk (especially with a maiden mare) of getting something short. Then what will you do?

Jennifer

[JWB]

I think your goals are a fairly tall order. She looks very cute and willing over fences however the gallop that she has Will need a lot of improvement. Draft horses were not bred to have ground covering gallops and in her case that comes through a bit. I’m sure she jumps just fine but it does take more than a good jump and good dressage to be successful at the upper levels. You are also looking for an eight inch increase in size… It is a lot to expect in one generation of breeding.

I think you should go with a full thoroughbred to improve her gallop and reach, although I still think you will come up short in the height department. Another one to consider is Lotus T. He is a high percentage of thoroughbred blood, his babies can jump well and they have easy-going temperaments. He is over 17 hands and very modern, and his babies tend to be tall as well so he may give you the height you’re looking for. I’m not sure if he would improve the gallop enough, but it would be a big step in the right direction.

[magicteetango]

As far as TB suggestions I really love Salute The Truth, he is proven and producing. My other suggestions would be Sea Accounts (competed to 4th level dressage and I believe is stepping up into Intermediate this year if he hasn’t already) or Sea Lion.

I have Sea Lion’s full sister. He himself is 16.2+, Casey (sister) is a hair under 16 hands but has thrown two large foals thus far, a filly by Formula One and a colt by Concerto Grosso. She and Lion are both fantastic movers, excellent suspension, a great walk, and a great gallop. Casey is extremely quiet, good work ethic but the same if she sits a day or a year. I believe Sea Lion has a very similar temperament, if you watch his videos you can see he isn’t a super hot horse, he is soft to his fences and she rides him with a very light feel.

Their sire also sired two other Intermediate horses and a GP dressage horse, all TB, named Sea Lord. He is owned by Charish Campbell and trained to GP by Sylva Martin. I believe he did Prelim with Boyd before his career change. Charish (and Pam, Sea Lion’s owner) are so nice and would be glad to talk to you about them.

As far as other suggestions… If I had your mare I would want a stallion that stamps. I have a colt by Concerto Grosso and he has sired foals out of a variety of mares, including at least one draft cross, they are all extremely good movers, quiet, great jump. He has sired two Intermediate horses as well.

My other suggestion would be Beste Gold. The farm I ride for has several of his babies, they are all quite large, excellent temperaments, lovely movers. His owner Wendy is very knowledgeable and easy to talk to. I don’t know how many eventers he has sired, however I do think you’d get a very nice foal regardless. I am very impressed with him and his offspring.

[Janeway]

[QUOTE=Blugal;7193213]
Anything listed as ISH is basically adraft cross - Irish Draft crossed with TB. These days the Draft is usually lessthan 50%, and the cross may include WB blood.[/QUOTE] I always thought the ISH horses didn’t qualify as “draft crosses” because the Irish Draught horse was not considered as heavy as Clydes, Percherons and Shires etc. Is that not right? Although I know that the ISH also has lots of warmbloods in their books now too, so the ISH in the Burghley could be that too (like the great Cavalier).

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Janeway;7194130]
I always thought the ISH horses didn’t qualify as “draft crosses” because the Irish Draught horse was not considered as heavy as Clydes, Percherons and Shires etc. Is that not right? Although I know that the ISH also has lots of warmbloods in their books now too, so the ISH in the Burghley could be that too (like the great Cavalier).[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are correct. An RID is NOT a draft horse like Perch, Clydes, Shires, etc.all of whom were bred to PULL, not ride.

Instead, a RID is more like an Irish WB. The “ideal” RID was bred to pull the carriage, pull the plow (just like pulling drafts), but in addition it was supposed to have the ability to jump cross country like nobody’s business. The Irish are big fox hunters, and when you see what those horses jump you will be amazed (or almost pee your pants, which I what I did).

Irish sporthorses are a cross between a TB and an RID, but they are NOTHING like a “draft-cross”. In fact, they are some of the most athletic horses in the world, especially in eventing.

I think an Irish Sporthorse would be a wonderful choice for this mare, because the right stallion could add jump, size, leg, improve the shoulder & gallop, etc. while still keeping the good, quiet mind.

I just don’t know that many who are proven event sires…

Again, I would urge you to post this on the Eventing board as well…or simply do a Google under “Irish Sporthorse Stallions”.

[Blugal]

I did not mean anything negative by my comments on the ISH. Yes, Irish Draughts are a lighter draft - but they are still drafts (check the name…). The OP said she wanted to keep some draft. (Though I tend to agree with others who say a full TB or very blood WB would probably be necessary for the gallop.)

Jumbo is an ISH sire who is proven to repeatedly produce upper level horses.

Personally, I probably wouldn’t gamble on breeding to this mare for a 3* horse. It partly depends on the rider’s ability as well (are you already a 3* rider or would this be your first foray into the upper levels?). For the money, time, risk, you might be better off purchasing a 1, 2, 3, 4 year old who already has the “goods” you are looking for.

[Jealoushe]

If you want a future 3* horse, you will have way more luck buying a prospect then breeding one. Breeding is a total crapshoot. Are you prepared to lose your super pony if something goes wrong?
A Percheron is not the cross for an UL eventer, and to be honest if you want to ride at the 3* level, you are going to want something with a little fire under hood.

[cedarbrook]

Take a look at our stallion Just a Devil. His first foal,Lucky Devil, is out of my 14.3h mare, Lady Luck. Lucky Devil was also Lady Luck’s first foal. Lucky Devil matured to 16h and is currently being ridden by Lauren Kieffer at the Advanced level. Last weekend he competed in his first CIC***. He jumped around show jumping beautifully and got 3/4 of the way around x-country, very nicely at that, before pulling a shoe and Lauren opted to pull him up rather than push him. He is only 8 years old and is proving to be a wonderful, athletic horse. Lauren has commented more that once that Lucky Devil always gives more than 100% and she doesn’t ride many that try harder than him to please.
Just a Devil is a full TB and is throwing very nice dressage movement, a beautiful brave jump, has been adding size to the smaller horses, and has a beautiful easy temperament that he passes on to his offspring.

[Blugal]

Do you have a website?

[cedarbrook]

Our website is www.cedarbrookfarm.com

[Kyzteke]

@Blugal;7194271

I did not mean anything negative by my comments on the ISH. Yes, Irish Draughts are a lighter draft - but they are still drafts (check the name…). The OP said she wanted to keep some draft. (Though I tend to agree with others who say a full TB or very blood WB would probably be necessary for the gallop.)

Again, I have to correct you. Contact at RID breeder and they will tell you RID are NOT “draft” horses like Perch, etc. Just because one says “draught” and the other says “draft” does not make them the same.

Shayga Arabians and Polish Arabians and Anglo Arabrian all have the word “arabian” in their names, but they are not even close in terms of conformation, breed standard or performance possibilities.

Please, not dissing you, but do your research.

Here is a fine example of a RID SPORTHORSE (and if I’m not mistaken, didn’t this guy use to stand at Denny Emerson’s place?).

http://chatsworthstud.com/formula-one/

Note he looks nothing like a Perch or other “draft” breed…

[Blugal]

Give me a break. I do not need to be “corrected.”

Your example is not a parallel. They are all Arabians.

Irish Draughts (or Drafts if you use North American spelling) are light drafts. They are not Arabians, nor are they TBs (hot bloods). They are not Percherons and I never implied that they were. They are not warmbloods as per our current definition.

I am well aware of the type of horse that Irish Draughts are, and what an IDSH may be, and what an ISH may be.

Formula One is an Irish Draft Sporthorse (IDSH) - the nomenclature is not RID Sporthorse. He is at minimum 3/4 TB. This is often called “three-quarter bred.” Of course he doesn’t look like his full RID ancestors.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Blugal;7195651]
Give me a break. I do not need to be “corrected.”

Your example is not a parallel. They are all Arabians.

Irish Draughts (or Drafts if you use North American spelling) are light drafts. They are not Arabians, nor are they TBs (hot bloods). They are not Percherons and I never implied that they were. They are not warmbloods as per our current definition.

I am well aware of the type of horse that Irish Draughts are, and what an IDSH may be, and what an ISH may be.[/QUOTE]

Then you would know that “a RID and TB is basically a draft cross” is not a correct statement. Period.

And neither is this: Your example is not a parallel. They are all Arabians.

No, they are not. Again, they have different registries, different standards and different conformation. So they are NOT the same type of horse.

Contact some RID breeders (or Shagya breeders) and ask them…

[Blugal]

So you are arguing that Shagya Arabians, Polish Arabians, and Egyptian Arabians are not all Arabians? What are they then?

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7194286]
If you want a future 3* horse, you will have way more luck buying a prospect then breeding one. Breeding is a total crapshoot. Are you prepared to lose your super pony if something goes wrong?
A Percheron is not the cross for an UL eventer, and to be honest if you want to ride at the 3* level, you are going to want something with a little fire under hood.[/QUOTE]

This says it all for me. In my humble opinion, the OP has a very tall order and high expectations for a foal that I don’t think can be achieved out of this mare. Just sayin’!

The OP would be much further ahead just purchasing a young prospect that looks like they might have potential for the upper levels. For 3* eventing, for the most part that means TB or TB cross with some drive to them…which isn’t necessarily what the OP wants. Of course, there are always exceptions to every rule, but the above is what she’ll likely have the most success with in the future.

All I can say is good luck! And unfortunately, once a thread has been started and commented on, there’s no way to delete it.

[Irish_Love]

Not to jump into the chaos here, but I too recommend some Irish blood in there- My RIDSH mare got the best of her RID sire, Snowford Bellman, and the best of her jockey club mum, as seen a lot in her gallop. I do not event with her, but everyone assumes I do when they watch us schooling. She would be great for it.

Also it was always my understanding that an ISH may not have draught in there directly at all, simply “Irish breeding” in general as I have an imported ISH gelding that is basically all Irish racing TB lines (the ISH, IDSH, RIDSH confusion).

Also perhaps try the “Irish Sport Horses and Irish Draught Horses” page on FB.

Side note on the debate as I just had a taste of it with my mare’s colt inspections. OLD/ISR-NA, for one, does NOT recognize irish draughts as they claim they are too drafty (which is ridiculous, but I won’t even get started), though the majority of “reputable” European registries in my research DO recognize them as proper “sporthorse” breeding. Just my 2 cents, thoguht clearly I’m partial