http://www.horsecollaborative.com/know-tb-pedigrees-mr-prospector/
What do y’all think he is trying to say?
Well I would really like to know… the filly which I was inquiring about the other day who is line bred to Mr.Prospector 3 times is in my barn now for some weeks. And I still think she is lovely… Is she gonna last or not ???
It’s time for another edition of “Five Races at Random!”, that’s that fun game where we pick five races at random from five random racetracks around the North America (and sometimes further afield) on a random day and look at the pedigrees of the horses in those races, thus getting a good cross sectional look at the pedigree of the modern day (as in TODAY) American TB!!
In today’s edition we are on the look out for the dastardly Mr Prospector, to see where he lurks in pedigrees of the US TB.
Alright people, let’s spin the dice at the DRF, and the first race is…
Race no.5 at Laurel Park, 3yos going 7f on the dirt… there are 8 runners, and yes, all 8 of them are descended from Mr P, many of them with multiple crosses in the first 5 generations.
Next up, let’s take the show on south to Texas, the 8th race at Sam Houston, older Fillies and Mares going 1mile on the dirt… 8 runners, and 6 of them are descended for Mr P., and once again many multiple crosses.
For our third stop, let’s go to sunny southern California, the 4th race at Santa Anita, 4yo and up sprinting on the main track. There are 12 entries and 2 AE’s, and 9 of the 14 total entries are descended from Mr P.
Fourth leg of the journey, let’s go down to N’Awlins, to the Fairgrounds, race 7, 3yo fillies going a Mile on the lawn. There are 11 entries, including a coupled entry so 12 fillies total and 11 of those fillies are descended from the dreaded Mr Prospector.
Let’s head back up the east coast and wrap this up in chilly NYC, at the Big A, Aqueduct… race 6, for 4yos and up going 6f on the inner dirt track. 10 entries, and let’s roll that pedigree dice and see what we get… horses are lined up in the gate… aaaand, awaaay they go… first horse up is sire line Mr P; the no.2 horse is linebred 3x4 to Mr P; the no 3 is a 4x4 Mr P cross; the number 4 horse, well hot damn, he has no Mr P in his pedigree (what a freak!); No. 5, another sireline Mr Pro; onto No. 6, yep, he’s got him some Mr P action going on; No 7, yet another from the MR P sireline; No 8, he’s from a sire that’s 3x4 Mistah Pro; No 9, tail male to the MP; and last, but by no mean’s least, numero 10, who is 5x3 to Mr P.
So that’s a total of 50 randomly selected TBs from across the USA, and 43 of them, or 86%, are descended from Mr Prospector, many with multiple crosses.
I think I like Broad Brush.
Certainly the vast majority of American horses have Mr. P at least once. IMO that may be one of the reasons why they are as unpopular with European/Down Under breeders today as they are. It’s certainly not due to the same dominance of Northern Dancer in American pedigrees.
But what is Denny Emerson trying to convey about the use of Mr. P in sport horse breeding?
I wish he’d had one summary/conclusive sentence, but my guess from the article would be that Mr. P has the reputation/has been known to throw crooked legs/horses that may be less sound. He was a very popular sire, and we are going to see him a lot in pedigrees, and that may increase the likelihood of his “influence” popping up and resulting in horses that may be less correct up front which could result in them being less sound. Therefore, it is important to be diligent in slow, correct building work and allowing a horse to be mature enough and fit enough for the work it is being asked to do. But that such an approach isn’t exclusive to lines that are potentially “more unsound” but it is an approach that should be applied in general, regardless.
Or, Mr P is going to show up a lot. He might not be the soundest line and the more times he is in a pedigree, the more influence he might have. But, he’s going to be there a lot whether you want him to be or not, so just be correct in your training and set a horse up for longevity and soundness by slow, correct fitness work and not rushing the horse, which is what you should do with a horse anyway, regardless of whether or not it has “sound” or “unsound” lines.
Maybe?
I think Weixiao is definitely on the right track! Not sure though whether Denny just tried to explain the sheer number of Mr. P relatives in the eventing world, or state that breeding is a crap shoot anyway.
After seeing Mr. P’s conformation shot, I must say that you couldn’t pay me to breed to him… those hindlegs!! YIKES!
I think the point was that Mr. Prospector was so popular that it is almost impossible to avoid that bloodline in NA. And that several crosses to Mr. P might not be a good idea for sport horses. Of course I am of the mind that too much TB of any kind might not be good for sport! But really, look at the horse in front of you and select “correct” when breeding for sport horses.
I have to agree with Siegi, about those hindlegs! I think Mr. P was older in that picture, but still.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8014182
But what is Denny Emerson trying to convey about the use of Mr. P in sport horse breeding?[/QUOTE]
hmmmm…maybe to train the horse and not the pedigree?
Denny is very in favor of knowing about the horses in our pedigree and identifying how that may or may not help lead to the horse you have.
I don’t think he’s trying to say you should or shouldn’t use Mr P, but rather get to know who he is, good and bad, so you can make your own decisions.
I have a TB mare that does not have any Native Dancer or Northern Dancer: http://www.pedigreequery.com/ms+lady+longneck. She also goes back to all three Arabians.
I bred her to a TB stallion, hoping for a keeper filly, but I got a colt. His sire’s pedigree is more common, and goes back to Raise a Native and Northern Dancer 2x each.
I’d hoped to breed her again, but unfortunately we nearly lost her at foaling and our vet’s recommended not breeding her again. She’s a nice mare. And still sound at 17.
All TBs go back to all three founders. Your girl doesn’t have a Matchem sire line on the first page plus the sire of mares in the fifth.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8014182]
Certainly the vast majority of American horses have Mr. P at least once. IMO that may be one of the reasons why they are as unpopular with European/Down Under breeders today as they are. It’s certainly not due to the same dominance of Northern Dancer in American pedigrees.
But what is Denny Emerson trying to convey about the use of Mr. P in sport horse breeding?[/QUOTE]
Viney, I mean this with the utmost respect when I say how do you figure American horses are “unpopular” in Europe/Australia?
[QUOTE=siegi b.;8014565]
I think Weixiao is definitely on the right track! Not sure though whether Denny just tried to explain the sheer number of Mr. P relatives in the eventing world, or state that breeding is a crap shoot anyway.
After seeing Mr. P’s conformation shot, I must say that you couldn’t pay me to breed to him… those hindlegs!! YIKES![/QUOTE]
Not just the hind legs but the club foot and his jug head. He looks rangey as well. Not much of a neck either. Not something I would want to breed to.
[QUOTE=FLeventer;8017680]
Not just the hind legs but the club foot and his jug head. He looks rangey as well. Not much of a neck either. Not something I would want to breed to.[/QUOTE]
to give the old man credit, he was quite long in the tooth in that picture… there are a few pictures of him on the internet that are much more flattering. he looked much better in his heyday, though his hind end structure was much the same…
http://www.applehillstables.net/ahs/horses/mr.prospector.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRdk2DK9vDo
In my opinion, what Denny is saying has nothing to do with BREEDING Sport horses.
What he is saying is that there are many representatives of the Mr. P genetics out there and that you judge the horse in front of you.
The conditioning of an eventer done correctly to an uncompromised Mr. P bred ought to result in a horse that doesn’t break down in Eventing.
Seeing Mr P in a horse’s pedigree isn’t a horrible ‘black mark’ against the horse as a athlete in a different Sport than racing.
my take on it.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8018024]
What he is saying is that there are many representatives of the Mr. P genetics out there and that you judge the horse in front of you.
The conditioning of an eventer done correctly to an uncompromised Mr. P bred ought to result in a horse that doesn’t break down in Eventing.
Seeing Mr P in a horse’s pedigree isn’t a horrible ‘black mark’ against the horse as a athlete in a different Sport than racing.
my take on it.[/QUOTE]
That was exactly my take as well. One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone makes a proclamation about a horse’s future soundness (for racing or sport) based on a name or two in a pedigree. If only genetics were that easy! :lol:
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8017661]
Viney, I mean this with the utmost respect when I say how do you figure American horses are “unpopular” in Europe/Australia?[/QUOTE]
From the 2013 Jockey Club Round Table, a presentation by on the state of TBs in Europe by the chairman of the European and Mediterranean Horse Racing Federation and head of Horse Racing Ireland.
Ireland is a small country of 4.5 million people, and we have a climate and soil structure that is particularly suitable to the raising of young horses. As a result, Ireland has long been one of the biggest Thoroughbred producing nations in the world.
[The Irish] foal crop is roughly equivalent to the size of Kentucky. 7,546 foals last year. Given our relatively small size and population, this has led to an emphasis on exports and in 2012, Ireland exported over 4800 Thoroughbreds to 34 countries worldwide, for a total value of 175 million Euro. That is double the amount of horses exported annually from the United States.
http://jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=RT&year=2013&area=6
And that’s just Irish exports.
If one can’t make predictions about heritable soundness issues, why bother with breeding licensing for WBs (and German TBs)? Why do the Dutch do to such lengths to try and ensure that only conformationally correct and x-ray clean horses get licensed?
