Denny's FB page

[Jealoushe]

@McGurk to be honest I have not updated the thread in about a year. I was getting a lot of flack for it and eventing safety had been falling on deaf ears for far too long. That being said, recently I have been feeling very positive about the attitude towards eventing safety. It HAS shifted.

Kate Morels fatality opened the eyes to many that the issue is far beyond fence design, and the loss of the long format. It is rider responsibility (trainers too) that needs to be highlighted. I have been VERY pleased listening to many eventing podcasts that so many who hold respectable positions in the sport (riders too) have been speaking out about this a lot lately. I recommend everyone listen to Equiratings, the USEA podcast, CoTH podcast, and Major League eventing when they have time.

I am proud of how eventers have come together after this last fatality. It is the first time I have seen this in my 26 years in the sport. I think the down time during COVID has been good for reflection.

Regarding whether eventing is safer. Firstly, eventing is entirely different now. It is not the same sport it was even 20 years ago. Many big name riders such as Lucinda Green, Mark Todd, Andrew Nicholson agree with this. To compare them is honestly comparing apples to oranges.

Working from home during COVID I spent almost every day watching Badminton, Burghley, Olympic, World Champ reruns…it was pretty eye opening. No the sport was not safer then, it was scary watching the XC a lot of the time, however for whatever reason, the falls were not as severe as in causing fatalities as they do now. That is the one difference I can see. I am not sure if it is the nature of the courses that has changed that has done this. It appears there were more falls in the “good ol days” but they weren’t as tragic. This could be because of a number of factors which we will truly never know because there was no data collection back then. My guess is there are more riders who compete today that are not at the level they should be, or the horses are not as prepared as they should be. Back in the “good ol days”, most eventers at the upper level were professionals and they did not compete as much and trained more. This is purely my opinion.

For anyone who wants to watch some good old XC, I made a playlist on Youtube of some of the videos I found, I didn’t add them all yet but will update it soon;

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis…effbhUHnjCQCC4

[CindyCRNA]

^^^ That was too stressful to watch! Right off the bat it look like a horse tore both rear suspensories and I couldn’t watch any more.

[xeroxchick]

@caryledee

Yep, a lot of changes made in recent years were because of the dangers of eventing in the early years. At one time there were very little rules regarding cross country jumps. Watch this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ys5esvSbo.

That video reminds me of those awful foxhunting videos from Ireland. Why I’ve never wanted to hunt in Ireland.

[Jealoushe]

@CindyCRNA

^^^ That was too stressful to watch! Right off the bat it look like a horse tore both rear suspensories and I couldn’t watch any more.

watching these videos were the final “click” for me to realize no, the good ol days weren’t what we act like they were. Hard on horses, hard on riders.

[Willesdon]

There is a great deal of data about safety on British Eventing and FEI Eventing that clearly show that falls have reduced, severity of falls has decreased and that Eventing is safer now than in “The Good Old Days”. Why USEA and USEF don’t maintain similar public databases is a puzzle. Maybe their member should ask.

[beowulf]

@Willesdon

There is a great deal of data about safety on British Eventing and FEI Eventing that clearly show that falls have reduced, severity of falls has decreased and that Eventing is safer now than in “The Good Old Days”. Why USEA and USEF don’t maintain similar public databases is a puzzle. Maybe their member should ask.

We’ve been asking for years.

[poltroon]

@Highflyer

I think it’s really important to acknowledge that someone can be a great rider or trainer or even horseman and still not be a great human being. There are some amazing riders out there I would never let sit on a horse I own, phenomenally talented instructors I will never pay for a lesson, people who can select and produce world class horses kindly and humanely that should never be trusted with your checkbook, let alone your personal safety or your child’s. Maybe there’s no such thing as heroes. We all have to choose who we can support and what we are willing to tolerate.

Well said.

There are really very few people who check all the boxes in all situations. Sometimes the way we can get better and evolve is to find the truths and value and ideas in one person and the truths and value in another and marry them together with values from other places into a much better whole.

What I value about Denny is his perspective across many breeds and disciplines, across time, and at a variety of levels. I value that he has worked with older amateurs effectively. I have enjoyed some of his writings. At the same time, I also agree with most of the criticisms labeled here. I think when he first appeared on social media I found him much more interesting than I do now, when he’s retreated more firmly into a curmudgeon my way or the highway mode in his writing.

But like many people, especially from his era, there are also aspects I reject.

[Ajierene]

@caryledee

Yep, a lot of changes made in recent years were because of the dangers of eventing in the early years. At one time there were very little rules regarding cross country jumps. Watch this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ys5esvSbo.

Thanks for the video, that was very interesting and I subscribed to the channel.

If I remember correctly, that water jump was set up in such a way on purpose to eliminate competition. My knowledge is a bit fuzzy, so I will say speculation is that Germany set up the jump with a deep end and shallow end and did not inform anyone. At the time, walking water to check depth was not thought of so some people just looked and assumed to take a more direct or central approach. The first person to go over well in the video was a Polish rider at maybe 4:45 (I didn’t check the time on this one), next at about 5:14 you see a US Army captain go through well, then, starting at about 6:05, three Germans go through and all go through the initial part of the obstacle well, it looks like the third horse slips in the mud afterward. You will see all six of these competitors go through on the left side of the obstacle while everyone who took a bath goes through more central or more right. To me, it looks like the third German rider went a bit to far left and his horse slipped. If memory serves correctly - as I said, eliminate competition and prove Germans are the ‘best’. It was very important to Hitler that Germany dominate the Olympics.

The water jump at Gladstone looks like people were still playing with what and how and it not atypical of what I have seen in older videos. I think it was Badminton that had a jump that was post and rail fencing about 2 strides after a steep incline and a lot of people had trouble with it.

There was also the tragedy at the Mexico Olympics where some horses and/or riders were lost due to the water flooding - You can read a bit about it on Wikipedia. It doesn’t mention anyone specifically being lost at the water crossing and my limited Google skills are not turning anything up right now so that’s just going from memory.

My trainer and I disagree on whether or not Eventing is more or less safe. She thinks it is less safe, I disagree. I think it is the same or more safe. I do think a lot of the issues are people moving up to quickly. Back in the day when it was mostly professionals or amateurs without a day job it was easier to move up quickly because you were riding and training every day and more often. I have seen people attempt to get even to Training Level on 4 rides a week. The horse has 4 rides, the rider has 4 rides, nothing outside of that is done for fitness and training and it does not pan out well. These are people that have not ridden at or above the level previously (or equivalent in another discipline).

I was discussing it with my trainer and we talked about how I did lease a horse and get from Beginner Novice to Training within a year BUT, I was riding every day and working on both our weak points. The horse had been successful at Trainning prior to the start of my lease. I was willing to step down a bit - I did a BN event in the fall, 2 N in the early Spring, then BOMBED at Training, went back and did 4 N events over the summer and ended the lease with one Training event (successful). I ended the lease due to budgetary issues. I stepped back up to Training after getting second place, feeling completely unfazed at the jumps, and just overall feeling hugely confident in both myself and my horse.

In most accidents that get posted here, I see issues at the level and no stepping down to reassess before the accident. Anyway, that’s my little soap box, I will step down now because I know we all like the soap box so someone else can have a turn.

[Peggy]

@Ajierene The course in Mexico City was designed to meander across various creek crossings, some of which were incorporated into water obstacles. And then it rained. A lot. The water rose and the water was not only deep, but moving pretty fast. Horses jumped in and got their feet swept out from under them.There was also mud. And, remember, these horses had already done phases A-C and some started compromised. The elevation probably didn’t help.

The Sam Savitt book about those Olympics describes one horse nearly going under the water but getting pulled out, another collapsing but reviving, one dying of a heart attack (Ballerina), and one with a rotational fall breaking his neck (Loughlan, but doesn’t note those deaths as resulting from a water obstacle. Kevin Freeman/Chalan fell at three fences and was then disqualified. He’s quoted in the book as follows, “the horses were going up to their knees on landing.” My parents were there (with the tour group that included Sam Savitt) and said it was horrifying.

[Ajierene]

@Peggy - Thanks for the information. It looks like no horses or riders were lost in the actual creek crossings, it was more a severe elimination factor. On Wikipedia, it stated about 30 riders went through before the heavy rains came. It also stated that the area was known for heavy rains during the period when the Summer Olympics were planned but no one acknowledged or seemed to care. It does sound like this particular Olympics was a mess all around.

As someone else stated, we often look at the past of eventing with rose colored glasses.

[caryledee]

@Ajierene

@Peggy - Thanks for the information. It looks like no horses or riders were lost in the actual creek crossings, it was more a severe elimination factor. On Wikipedia, it stated about 30 riders went through before the heavy rains came. It also stated that the area was known for heavy rains during the period when the Summer Olympics were planned but no one acknowledged or seemed to care. It does sound like this particular Olympics was a mess all around.

As someone else stated, we often look at the past of eventing with rose colored glasses.

Thanks, I was trying to find a story I read about the Mexican Olympics and the creek crossing and could not find it. But I remember reading about that and also about the straight Show Jumping courses being particularly tricky and maxxed out. People are always so quick to refer to the old days as good but everything is so much more regulated today, more safety equipment, better vet treatment, etc. Eventing is never going to be 100% safe. We need to keep working towards making it safer but it is interesting to look at where we started.

[Peggy]

@caryledee I think I’ve read that one of the SJ courses was the largest set ever, or something along those lines. There’s video, including one that I think describes the dimensions. IIRC it’s on the site that Bernie Traurig is involved with. I’m currently sitting in my car at the vet’s office and the WiFi is not stellar so YouTube won’t search.

video - https://youtu.be/w2VpsxNy-Io

[caryledee]

@Peggy

@caryledee I think I’ve read that one of the SJ courses was the largest set ever, or something along those lines. There’s video, including one that I think describes the dimensions. IIRC it’s on the site that Bernie Traurig is involved with. I’m currently sitting in my car at the vet’s office and the WiFi is not stellar so YouTube won’t search.

video - https://youtu.be/w2VpsxNy-Io

That is just crazy! But so impressive. Thanks for finding!

[JER]

@caryledee

…the straight Show Jumping courses being particularly tricky and maxxed out…

Tell that to the pony who took the silver medal.

[seabreeze]

@JER can you point me to that thread? I remember reading it but can’t find it now.

[JER]

@seabreeze

@JER can you point me to that thread? I remember reading it but can’t find it now

No, I can’t.

[jaj]

Sorry. Old thread. Didn’t notice.