Denny's FB page

[endlessclimb]

@Seagram

Reading through all of these posts, I truly don’t know what to believe or think. I’ve followed Denny on facebook, and appreciate his slow gently approach with horses, and have never seen some of the terrible things he is being accused of saying. He is a curmudgeon, yes. But I’ve never witnessed any of these other accusations. If any of these sexual assault accusations are true, I would be so terribly sad for the victims, and for the people who believe/d in Denny.

Tell you what, when there’s one that frustrates him for one reason or another, the gentle goes out the window. I witnessed it.

[Void]

Yeah I suspect most of his “slow and gentle” approach with horses is also lip service.

[libgrrl]

He says that he has changed his approach. Isn’t it possible that is true? Particularly at his current age?

[endlessclimb]

@libgrrl

He says that he has changed his approach. Isn’t it possible that is true? Particularly at his current age?

My witnessing was with a horse he frequently posts about who he has since sold because she did not fit his mold - it was within the last 5 years that this happened.

[endlessclimb]

@Void

Yeah I suspect most of his “slow and gentle” approach with horses is also lip service.

Not all of it. But only with horses who are naturally compliant and willing.

[Jealoushe]

@Void

@atl_hunter Same thing pretty much happened to me yesterday. To preface: I am Black, I am also a Hunter Rider who has been writing about POC visibility in Equestrian sports for a while now. I saw Denny had a post regarding POC in Equestrian sports and I made a comment about how he could use his platform to help - I was polite, I tried to push him to do the hardwork and he threatened me with a ban hammer if I didn’t shut up.

The irony of telling a POC to stay in their lane after making a BIG post about how we need to do more as an equestrian community to include people color. Regardless I screenshot the whole interaction before he deleted it. @Jealoushe can confirm, we are friends on FB.

Witnessed, and the distain for Denny grows in my mind…

[16_Hands]

I audited a clinic of his maybe 35 years ago and found him to be very gentle with only horse’s best interest in mind, humorous, and generally a likable guy. After that I kind of had hero worship and it’s a little distressing all these years later to see how much he’s changed. I follow his Tamarack Farm FB and have seen the nastiness rear it’s head telling people who don’t agree with him to “shut up” or banning them completely.

[Lunabear1988]

This is eye opening.

[SCM1959]

@endlessclimb

My witnessing was with a horse he frequently posts about who he has since sold because she did not fit his mold - it was within the last 5 years that this happened.

Frosty? Or Rosie’s Girl? I suspect Frosty.

I am very sad to read all of this. He is related to a childhood friend of mine. They are all direct descendants of General Israel Putnam of Revolutionary War Fame. His father was born in my hometown, less than 2 miles from my house. I have enjoyed reading his posts and “hearing” his New England curmudgeon-like opinions. Not so much anymore.

SCM1959

[CWNSF]

@SCM1959 - I’m not sure who endlessclimb is referring to but I wonder if it was Jumbie?

[Highflyer]

@16 Hands

I audited a clinic of his maybe 35 years ago and found him to be very gentle with only horse’s best interest in mind, humorous, and generally a likable guy. After that I kind of had hero worship and it’s a little distressing all these years later to see how much he’s changed. I follow his Tamarack Farm FB and have seen the nastiness rear it’s head telling people who don’t agree with him to “shut up” or banning them completely.

I think it’s really important to acknowledge that someone can be a great rider or trainer or even horseman and still not be a great human being. There are some amazing riders out there I would never let sit on a horse I own, phenomenally talented instructors I will never pay for a lesson, people who can select and produce world class horses kindly and humanely that should never be trusted with your checkbook, let alone your personal safety or your child’s. Maybe there’s no such thing as heroes. We all have to choose who we can support and what we are willing to tolerate.

[SCM1959]

@CWNSF

@SCM1959 - I’m not sure who endlessclimb is referring to but I wonder if it was Jumbie?

I had forgotten about Jumbie. Maybe … I will have to go back and poke around to see when she was mentioned last. I don’t really think Rosie’s Girl as he is so complimentary about her and Daryl has her now. It seemed to me about Rosie’s Girl that he knew how talented she is and what scope she has and also realized he could not bring her to that level himself. I had the impression almost immediately that Frosty did not turn out to be a favorite. Remember he was one of the first judges for the Thoroughbred Makeover and then he bought Frosty and was going to enter her the next year and it did not take long for him to make a u-turn and say, Nope, not going to happen. Too much pressure on the horse. All of a sudden nothing re Frosty until fairly recently, someone asked about her. And then I think a photo popped up and I think someone else is riding her, but I cannot remember. Must check that, too.

SCM1959

[McGurk]

@Highflyer,

I think it’s really important to acknowledge that someone can be a great rider or trainer or even horseman and still not be a great human being. There are some amazing riders out there I would never let sit on a horse I own, phenomenally talented instructors I will never pay for a lesson, people who can select and produce world class horses kindly and humanely that should never be trusted with your checkbook, let alone your personal safety or your child’s. Maybe there’s no such thing as heroes. We all have to choose who we can support and what we are willing to tolerate.

Wow. Perfectly said. Worth quoting, worth repeating.

[mugsgame]

@McGurk

@DogWithBigEars,

Not exactly. The reasons why have been debated endlessly here and on his page; but the data is pretty clear - eventing has gotten more deadly over the years, not less. Yes, so of the fences from the 60s, 70s and 80s that are pictured are crazy looking to our eye, but the fact of the matter is, there were fewer falls and fewer deaths, both in aggregate and as a percentage of competitors.

When you boil down all the opinions and theories, the reasons comes down to 1.) Change from long format to short format. Horses are less fit, conditioned differently and upper level horses are selected for qualities other than stamina. 2.) The change in the scoring formulas which lead to dressage becoming more important. Event horses used to be horses that could gallop, jump and get through the dressage; now they’re dressage horses that can gallop and jump. 3.) Related to 2.)- the move away from the TB and to the WB. 4.) The change in sport from primarily amateur to primarily professional, with the concomittant need to advance horses through the levels, have multiple riders do the conditioning and to enter multiple horses at a single competition.

So you can call Denny a hypocrite about some things, and criticize him for others, but there is no hypocrisy in calling out what’s dangerous today while posting old competition photos.

I am sorry but this is just not true.

1. There is minimal data until the 1990s Falls etc just were not recorded and then poorly until 2000s.
2. the sport has grown exponentially. You cannot compare risk when there would have maybe been 10,000 competing worldwide vs 100,000 now.
3. Even though anecdote is not data, I have been around for a while and I can tell you numerous horses who died, rider falls etc A lot of friends who competed in 70s/80s will tell you about someone who was seriously injured and killed eventing - it just was barely touched.
4. In Uk i could watch Badminton and Burghley thanks to TV but now I can watch any 5* and a lot of 4*. This changes perceptions and we now watch falls in real time. I remember lots and lots of horses just about getting over the last fence of xc in LF era, horses breaking down and horses collapsing on course. Now this kind of behaviour would have people outraged.
5. Long format wrecked horses - ask any of the top pros - WFP, Pippa, Mary King etc none are upset about the loss of Long Format and all won under both formats. 8yos ran at world championships and were retired at 13/14 years old. To say the loss of LF has led to more falls is nonsense. Its much more nuanced.
6. The sport has always been a fairly professional sport from the 1970s. The army lot dominated for a reason, they were not really amateurs. Then there were riders like Richard Meade… also a professional.

[HereComesZach]

Wow this thread makes me so sad! I’ve owned many ‘difficult’ horses over the years who landed with me as a last resort, and I always sort of looked up to Denny as the voice of ‘reason’ for these types that someone else had fried amongst the backdrop of trainers advising me to get ‘tougher’ with them and try bigger bits and more gadgets, etc. It is true, not everyone is perfect, and I’m glad for the message he puts out there, regardless of his dubious adherence.

Now, the SS stuff is something else entirely, yikes… :no:

[caryledee]

@mugsgame

I am sorry but this is just not true.

1. There is minimal data until the 1990s Falls etc just were not recorded and then poorly until 2000s.
2. the sport has grown exponentially. You cannot compare risk when there would have maybe been 10,000 competing worldwide vs 100,000 now.
3. Even though anecdote is not data, I have been around for a while and I can tell you numerous horses who died, rider falls etc A lot of friends who competed in 70s/80s will tell you about someone who was seriously injured and killed eventing - it just was barely touched.
4. In Uk i could watch Badminton and Burghley thanks to TV but now I can watch any 5* and a lot of 4*. This changes perceptions and we now watch falls in real time. I remember lots and lots of horses just about getting over the last fence of xc in LF era, horses breaking down and horses collapsing on course. Now this kind of behaviour would have people outraged.
5. Long format wrecked horses - ask any of the top pros - WFP, Pippa, Mary King etc none are upset about the loss of Long Format and all won under both formats. 8yos ran at world championships and were retired at 13/14 years old. To say the loss of LF has led to more falls is nonsense. Its much more nuanced.
6. The sport has always been a fairly professional sport from the 1970s. The army lot dominated for a reason, they were not really amateurs. Then there were riders like Richard Meade… also a professional.

Yep, a lot of changes made in recent years were because of the dangers of eventing in the early years. At one time there were very little rules regarding cross country jumps. Watch this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ys5esvSbo.

[Ghazzu]

Before the gigantic Equine Affaire, there used to be a Massachusetts Horse Expo.
I went one year (believe I was still in vet school, so must have been the 80’s), and Denny was speaking.
He was lamenting the carnage in eventing, and saying it came from the Old Guard cavalry types who were still influential, and that things wouldn’t get safer until they had died off.
Guess that didn’t happen.

[beowulf]

@Ghazzu

Before the gigantic Equine Affaire, there used to be a Massachusetts Horse Expo.
I went one year (believe I was still in vet school, so must have been the 80’s), and Denny was speaking.
He was lamenting the carnage in eventing, and saying it came from the Old Guard cavalry types who were still influential, and that things wouldn’t get safer until they had died off.
Guess that didn’t happen.

It kind of didn’t – CMP is still a major course designer used today and for the life of me I don’t understand why. Very much Old Guard.

[Sheasmom2]

I rode with Denny for many years when he came to SP. Not always often but tried to every year get down for a lesson or two. He was always an advocate for the horse. He’s a very good teacher. He does like to incorporate “lectures” into his lessons, maybe because he was a teacher. I never saw or heard anything negative.
It is beyond my knowledge to comment on anything concerning harassment.

[McGurk]

carleydee,

Thanks for posting that video! I’m not sure the footage from the 1936 Olympics is a fair comparison, because that was when the competition was restricted to the military. The footage from the 64 Olympic selection trials is pretty horrifying, you would think at Gladstone there would have been better course design! I believe DE started eventing in 65, and moved up to advanced in 71. So I think when he talks about the good old days of long format being safer, he’s referring to the 70s forward.
I’m still not persuaded that the sport was more dangerous then than now. Different, sure; less technical, sure, less modern safety equipment, yes. I am also sure that bad accidents and deaths are more widely known now because of better reporting and social media.

@Jealoushe, I know you were compiling a list of horse and rider deaths, but it doesn’t seem to have made it through the board update. Do you still have it? Does anyone have hard data we can reference re: falls, serious accidents and deaths of horse and rider from the 70s forward, both as raw numbers and percentage of participants? While I understand all the reasons why there’s not solid data on horse deaths, surely there’s better data on rider deaths. Even in the absence of good data from the 70s - 90s, it’s hard to ignore the 12 rider deaths in a period between 2007 - 2008, or 59 rider deaths total between 1993 and 2016.