Derby

[smoofox]

@Where'sMyWhite

Exactly. The stewards should have lodged an inquiry before the horses even crossed the wire to examine the bumping incident. It sounded to me as though they’d already noticed there was some issue at the head of the stretch. A steward’s inquiry would have let all the jocks/trainers as well as the betting public know that the stewards were on top of their job and examining the race and outcome to ensure all rules were appropriately applied and followed.

The stewards also spoke to Jon Court who was on Long Range Toddy. Maximum Security was correctly placed behind LRT. When I saw it happen in real time I immediately expected a Hold All Tickets/ Inquiry… DUH.

This was the right decision - and yet all the experts Out There who only watch the Derby (and maybe the Belmont if there is a chance of a Triple Crown) seem to know better. Maximum Security’s owner is not helping by having a bit of a tantrum about it. No appeal is possible. If War of Will had lost his footing and gone down thanks to being interfered with by MS - and likely caused others to go down as well - would that owner still be whining? Classless IMO - and reminiscent of California Chrome’s owner and his temper tantrum after the Belmont…

[atl_hunter]

@snaffle1987

I think part of the problem is around the final turn, War of Will went for and tried to create a hole that wasn’t there. If you watch the head on footage of them coming around the turn, you will see War of Will, turn off the rail and start coming to the right flank of Maximum Security. At that point, Maximum Security also made the same move at the same time, beginning to come off the rail. Likely due to the sea of water puddled on the rail.

The entire time, Long Range Toddy was right next to Maximum Security; as he had been along most of the back stretch. So even if Maximum Security had not moved right, War of Will was putting himself in a position to run into Long Range Toddy and run up the ass of MS. Maximum Security then shied away from something, swapped leads which took him slightly farther right; cutting off War of Will who was in the process of trying to create a hole that didn’t exist to begin with.

I have seen the still photos of the incident. They are not pretty and all are lucky to have walked away unscathed. But I will stand by my comment that if War of Will wasn’t looking for a non existent hole to plow through, even if MS moved right, he wouldn’t have endangered Long Range Toddy, bumped him, yes. War of will was running rank up on MS heels up the back stretch and into the turn and at the far turn, Gaflione let him loose with no where to go as the rest of the field in front of him hadn’t yet turned on the gas.

Gaflione didn’t protest and was never approached by officials as they had no benefit to protesting. Pratt protesting looks like a winey sore loser who knew exactly the benefit he was after and he had nothing to lose by doing so. and Court had no chance in hell at the race so I am not sure why he joined the complainers club. Toddy hates the mud and Court used up all of his gas in his tank by the top of the stretch. He didn’t finish at the bottom because he got bumped.

Not sure how these officials and jockeys and trainers expect 3 yr olds to act in an environment like that. pouring rain, standing water in tire tracks on the inside lane, the track was so muddy you could barely walk in the walkover, 150,000 screaming lunatics, screens, music, etc and a 20 horse stampede around the oval in such conditions. How do they expect these horses to be perfect the entire way around like they are machines driven by a steering wheel?

I saw the same thing you saw. And I’ve seen it from multiple vantage points. The horse was right up Maximum Security’s but and then as you pointed out his right flank. Somehow, that seemed to have gotten overlooked. I’m not sure it was so wise to decline the appeal.

[Palm_Beach]

The track was sloppy, which happens regularly here in the US. The only horse that looked to me that he didn’t handle it was Tacitus, and he ended up 3rd. He really looked like he was floundering early on. The track itself was fair-to-speed favoring, as we saw in the Derby. I’m not sure why @snaffle1987 keeps going on about people being unable to walk on it. It’s hard to walk on a dry track - most are a bit loose and sandy and fluffy. If possible, you find a tire track and follow that around. It’s designed for horses to run on, not for people to walk on. There is a big difference.

[Where_sMyWhite]

At this point, I’d just wish Mr West would stop already…

Whether he is, at this point, right or wrong, other than purse $$ what’s the whining about. The bettors would not be impacted. I suspect breeding fees would not be impacted as we all could see how well Maximum Security ran.

What’s he gaining at this point (maybe I’m just missing something).

[LaurieB]

@Where'sMyWhite

At this point, I’d just wish Mr West would stop already…

Whether he is, at this point, right or wrong, other than purse $$ what’s the whining about. The bettors would not be impacted. I suspect breeding fees would not be impacted as we all could see how well Maximum Security ran.

What’s he gaining at this point (maybe I’m just missing something).

Apparently he thinks he going to gain back a Derby win. :rolleyes:

[Where_sMyWhite]

Color me :rolleyes:

:lol:

I get the prestige but at some point one can end up looking/sounding like a whiney baby …

[DarkBayUnicorn]

@Where'sMyWhite

Color me :rolleyes:

:lol:

I get the prestige but at some point one can end up looking/sounding like a whiney baby …

Agreed.

As I posted on the other thread, the contrast between Maximum Security’s connections whining and throwing tantrums in the media and War of Will’s connections simply being profoundly (almost tearfully) grateful he is alive, is gobsmacking.

I think we know which horse is beloved and which is merely seen as a means to personal glory.

[mommy_peanut]

@Texarkana

I’ll describe the infraction for you since you can’t see it:

Maximum Security crossed into War of Will’s path so abruptly that his hind leg was between War of Will’s two front legs and War of Will’s head was practically on his rump. And by some miracle, War of Will stayed on his feet… instead of what usually happens where the horse clips heels with the horse in front of him and goes down, triggering a mass casualty event. Which is why crossing into a horse’s path in that manner constitutes an automatic DQ in today’s rules in pretty much every racing jurisdiction.

I see it differently. WOW started the whole fiasco. I think his running up on MS ass, is what caused MS to veer our.
I am not the only one seeing it this way.
https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/Watch_New_video_key_to_Maximum_Security_s_Kentucky_Derby_appeal_123

[Where_sMyWhite]

@mommy peanut

I am not the only one seeing it this way.
https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/Watch_New_video_key_to_Maximum_Security_s_Kentucky_Derby_appeal_123

Seems like this article is a platform for West to continue to complain… of course he isn’t going to see it as a foul where his horse impeded another horse. :rolleyes:

[alicen]

Something about which I am totally ignorant: on average how many lead changes do horses do on the straight?

[mommy_peanut]

@Where'sMyWhite

Seems like this article is a platform for West to continue to complain… of course he isn’t going to see it as a foul where his horse impeded another horse. :rolleyes:

Do a quick search & you’ll find other publications stating similar thoughts. That WOW started the whole incident.
Regardless… the decision has been made & it is what it is

[Laurierace]

@alicen

Something about which I am totally ignorant: on average how many lead changes do horses do on the straight?

They start on their right lead the vast majority of the time, switch to their left going into the turn, then back to their right coming out of the turn. Repeat based upon the number of turns.

[EventerAJ]

@alicen

Something about which I am totally ignorant: on average how many lead changes do horses do on the straight?

Horses are taught to run on the right lead on the straights, and left lead on the turns. They almost always swap predictably in the first two or three strides going into or out of the turn. It is undesirable for the horse to change leads at any other time. Most horses will maintain the right lead all the way down the stretch past the wire to the turn before changing to left again.

Some horses do have poor changes and may change late in the stretch, or not at all, or swap again, but it isn’t very common and possibly a sign of greenness, weakness, tired, or soreness.

[alicen]

Thank you, Laurierace and EventerAJ.

[Palm_Beach]

@alicen

Thank you, Laurierace and EventerAJ.

I actually threw out Country House during my little handicapping session because the one time I saw him gallop, he was swapping leads all over the place. It looked like he was gawking at everything, but since he was such a long shot, I had no qualms about not using him. Of course, he went straight down the middle of the track on race day.

[Rackonteur]

@Where'sMyWhite

At this point, I’d just wish Mr West would stop already…

Whether he is, at this point, right or wrong, other than purse $$ what’s the whining about. The bettors would not be impacted. I suspect breeding fees would not be impacted as we all could see how well Maximum Security ran.

What’s he gaining at this point (maybe I’m just missing something).

It’s not all about the money, regardless of what many seem to think.

Protesting is not necessarily the same thing as whining.

[Rackonteur]

@Laurierace

They start on their right lead the vast majority of the time, switch to their left going into the turn, then back to their right coming out of the turn. Repeat based upon the number of turns.

Why? I’m not questioning, just wanting to know.

[LaurieB]

@Rackonteur

Why? I’m not questioning, just wanting to know.

The races are in a big oval heading counter clockwise so it makes sense for horses to be on their left (inside) leads on the turns. But they get tired if they stay on one lead for too long, so they switch to their right (outside) leads in the straightaways. Sometimes if a horse tires at the end of the race, you will see him switch back to his left lead in the stretch.

Some horses prefer one lead to the other, but almost all follow this pattern anyway because it is the most energy effective.

[Laurierace]

What LaurieB said. Think if you were scrubbing the shower walls for several minutes. You scrub away with your right hand then as it gets tired, switch to your left and you can keep right on scrubbing. The reason they do the left in the turns is the same reason we switch to the inside lead when cantering a course of jumps, it makes it easier to stay balanced and let the centrifugal force help carry you around.

[Rackonteur]

@LaurieB

The races are in a big oval heading counter clockwise so it makes sense for horses to be on their left (inside) leads on the turns. But they get tired if they stay on one lead for too long, so they switch to their right (outside) leads in the straightaways. Sometimes if a horse tires at the end of the race, you will see him switch back to his left lead in the stretch.

Some horses prefer one lead to the other, but almost all follow this pattern anyway because it is the most energy effective.

Thanks.