Designing a non-commercial feed plan?

Well, basic horse nutrition isn’t rocket science, but so many owners (and indeed BM and trainers) have outdated, wrong headed or peculiar ideas, that repeating the basics is never a bad idea :slight_smile:

As far as credentials, all I have is a ten week Coursera on basic horse nutrition, a good reference book, the ability to understand and integrate information quickly and to know what I don’t know, the ability to read a hay test for the basics and the ability to get horses fed up nicely at reasonable cost.

This however in terms of nutrition education honestly puts me ahead of every other person in my large self-board barn, which is also an excellent place to observe the results of all the individual care plans owners devise for themselves, everyone thinking they are doing the best for their horses.

I know a trainer who kept her horse with tendon injuries on low protein crap local hay “so he wouldn’t get too hot.” He never recovered and is retired young.

I know a couple of owners who foundered their obese horses because they bought into the idea of 24/7 feed. One foundered a pony on “good coarse local pony hay” which is low nutrition but scary high in NSC. And yes, she had seen the hay tests for that hay and continued feeding it (25% NSC).

Another is dealing with laminitis right now in an obese young stockhorse who was getting free choice alfalfa Timothy mix, guaranteed low sugar, organic, non GMO, from a niche hay dealer who charges double the going rate per ton. The stockhorse has been obese and going short in front for most of the past year, but it only reached a vet call crisis last week. Owner can’t understand why horse is laminitic because the hay is said to be low sugar. Horse has been going through about 30 lbs of this hay a day since the past fall.

And these are both owners that consider themselves caring and concerned and are looking for the best for their horses, just can’t see the big picture.

Other owners do no harm, but dither with a sprinkling of this and that, at levels that can’t possibly impact the diet (half a cup of alfalfa pellets, a sprinkling of ration balancer, etc).

Lots of horses are of course doing just fine on good hay and some level of ration balancer or commercial feed. The owners don’t test the hay, don’t know how to read a hay test, don’t know what’s in the feed, but nothing bad happens. Some of them get nutrition advice at the co-op feed mill, but just retain the recommended brand name, not the rationale.

The problem is, when these folks get introduced to a new idea like free choice organic hay, they don’t have a knowledge base to evaluate how that is working for their particular horse or see problems before they get acute.

I feel confident to repeat the basics that I know to be current best practice on COTH, especially as I know that if I oversimplify or get something wrong, someone catch me on it and I will learn something!

in our market in Western Canada there are two mills making versions of standard feed products, but no American brands of feed. I expect it would be bringing coals to Newcastle, as they say, to ship up American brands with tariff and transport and 30% exchange rated added on, when we have the grain terminals right here in town. The cost of the local manufactured feeds is significantly higher than the cost of plain oats or beet pulp or alfalfa cubes. So the “natural foods” model makes a lot of economic sense here. I understand that in some markets in the US the cost of whole oats is on a par with the cost of a manufactured fortified feed, especially if you aren’t in a grain growing region or the manufacturer has economies of scale that let them produce the feed cheaply. So there is an incentive here to think about feeding the components, that may not exist in some markets in the US, especially outside the grain belt.

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Gosh, stepped away for a little while and came back to quite a discussion here :smiley: Thanks, everyone. This has been very helpful. I downloaded “Feed Your Horse Like a Horse” this morning and am two chapters in. Love it so far. Very user-friendly and seems to cover a good bit. It’s a great start and I’m glad for the recommendation, Scribbles.

As far as what feeds are available in Ireland, we’ve got Gain, Red Mills, Baileys, TopSpec, Dengie, and BlueGrass. Anything else would be a special delivery, usually from outside of Ireland, and prohibitively expensive. Every single one of those mills uses soy in nearly all of their feeds, and at the risk of opening a new can of worms, that’s just not something I’m happy feeding 8 mares.

It’s a contentious subject, it’s an ingredient that’s hard to avoid, and a lot of science would and clearly has backed its use. But I’m not comfortable with it. Science changes. I’m not about jumping onto trends or clinging to buzz words, but I’m also not comfortable blinkering myself and simply accepting that the manufacturers know best. If that puts me squarely in line with what’s fashionable on this forum, I’m fine with it. There are a lot of well-informed, smart people who generously contribute their ideas and experience.

Unfortunately there’s not a lot of money in the showjumping industry here. We have a lot less luxury of choice and I think that’s generally not great for quality. Finding good forage has also been a process, but now that I’ve got a haylage I’m happy with, I’ll get an analysis done :yes: It varies slightly from bale to bale and certainly from batch to batch, but it’s good to have a ballpark idea, isn’t it? I wish we had better access to alfalfa hay here but the climate doesn’t suit for growing it and it’s not readily available. Dengie does have a pure alfalfa pellet that I’m excited to try. So maybe, hopefully, I’m on the right track. Thanks again for the advice :slight_smile:

What specifically about soy concerns you? Not a snarky comment here, but you know there are countless 1000s of horses who have consumed some amount of soy their entire long lives, yes? :slight_smile: That definitely doesn’t mean there aren’t horses who can’t tolerate much, or any, as those absolutely exist. And I do think it’s one of the first things to remove if you run into chronic digestive or skin issues.

Consider how much soy they are getting in a feed, relative to how much phytoestrogens they are consuming from grass.

But I also understand wanting to avoid soy, and it can certainly be done :yes:

As for hay analysis - a good sampling is a sample from about 10% of the bales in a given batch. That gets you the average because yes, bales can vary, depending on where in the field they grew. Every batch you get would need to be tested, unless it’s still from the same field and cutting as the last batch. Even then it would be worth testing again if you’ve got enough months’ worth, because if your first batch came from the sunnier part of the field, and your current batch came from a more shaded area, they could be different enough, even if they’re from the same cutting of that same field.

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Gain is the official supplier to your show jumping team, and you guys can jump a bit, so maybe start looking at those products. Looks like they have a decent website with good information.

So why are you hesitant to feed soy? Remember, you are feeding XX pounds of haylage a day, and only Y pounds of concentrate, of which soy is only a %, so you are not feeding a soy-based diet even if it’s a top ingredient of your concentrate. “Hearing” anecdotal stories and reading opinions of anonymous internet posters who may or may not have any education in equine nutrition probably does not reflect reality. Look for articles from peer reviewed journals, or authored by real people with real credentials.

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How can you leave out Katy Watts?

Wonder where they all are.

How did YOU leave her out? I didn’t proclaim to list Every. Single. Person. And Katy hasn’t been here for a while, not that I’ve seen (but I don’t go stalking to see if she’s posted lately either, so…)

Wonder where they all are.

Why does it matter? Maybe you could message them and ask?

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I don’t look people up either, but to the best of my recent memory, no one listed by you chimes in on any nutrition related threads on a regular basis.

Your point?

You said, and I quote, “No one on this board has any formal education regarding equine nutrition.” Now suddenly you manage to see that I didn’t mention Katy :confused:

I’m still interested in what option you would recommend for the OP, since you said FeedXL is a waste without any forage testing. And given that, a nutritionist would also be a waste. So what is YOUR recommendation for what she might look at, instead of just telling her what’s a useless endeavor?

And why is her current possible diet any worse than randomly picking a commercial feed?

Inquiring minds want to know :yes:

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Because unlike some people they have a real life outside of denigrating people on this forum who are only trying to HELP.

@JB - you go girl.

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Trying to help and being right are two different things. And not sure how cautioning someone on taking nutritional advice from anonymous internet posters with no credentials is “denigrating.” It’s actually the truth. You can read something that sounds good, but I’d follow up with real information from real people.

Everything JB says lines up with current best practices as taught in nutrition courses and in reference books. And with what equine nutrtionists have said to me in person.

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That’s because it COMES from reference books and nutritionists, and sometimes personal experience and noted as much :yes:

Actual equine nutritionists, not just someone with a generic Animal Science degree with a specialty in poultry or business :winkgrin:

🕺🏼

Wow, here we go again, bashing the old Animal Science degree, coming from someone with no science degree. Because someone who has an Animal Science degree is too stupid to read reference books or consult nutritionists and can’t possibly have any personal experience? Only you can? 🤔🐣🐷

Talking to someone who is an expert makes one an expert? Wow.🕺🏼

Ahhh, so good to see you still can’t figure out that whole conversation :lol:

You are the one who said that anyone working in a feed store, with an Animal Science degree, would for sure know enough about feeding horses to know what advice to give. You have conveniently never acknowledged that not only does an AS degree not have to include anything concentration in nutrition, it doesn’t even have to include a concentration animals at all. So for all I know, that AS degree guy at TSC has a focus on the business side of things and doesn’t know squat about horses, much less which feeds to recommend to Jane Doe walking in wanting to put weight on her thin horse.

Not once did I bash the degree, no matter how many times you make it up in your head that I did. I asked you many times to quote where I did, and you never could.

Because someone who has an Animal Science degree is too stupid to read reference books or consult nutritionists and can’t possibly have any personal experience? Only you can?

Your words, not mine. I never said anything of the sort, never implied it, and again, I cannot control what you infer or flat out make up.

I’m not sure what makes someone with an AS degree any more, or less (!!), capable of reading reference books or consulting nutritionists than someone with a computer science degree, a minor in math, and a concentration in business, who has spent the last almost 20 years studying the latest and greatest in equine nutritional research and having conversations with nutritionists :cool: :encouragement:

Talking to someone who is an expert makes one an expert? Wow.🕺🏼

Right? So that Animal Science guy with no education in equine nutrition can talk to an expert and be an expert too. Wow! :encouragement:

In my area the 3 most limiting ingredients in a horses diet are copper, zinc, and selenium. Those are the 3 major ingredients i would focus on supplementing.

My horses are on a grass hay diet. I feed alfalfa pellets with a vitamin mineral supplement and sometimes a small (1/2 cup) of sweet feed added to that. The alfalfa adds protein, and the vitamin mineral supplement covers their Cu, Zn, Se, and vitamins. The sweet feed is for my picky eaters to encourage them to finish their supper.

I want a supplement that does not add iron. Horses do not need any additional iron in their diets.

Don’t over complicate it.

This is what I use to balance the diet.
https://nrc88.nas.edu/nrh/

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I don’t get where this particular interpersonal conflict is coming from, and I hope it is not going to start to derail threads on nutrition. I also don’t get why its an issue.

Equine nutrition IMHO is one of those technical subjects that a person can get up to speed on without a degree in the field, especially if they already have a science and math background, and know the difference between carbs, fat, and protein.

Honestly I evaluate everything I am told against what I know to be true, and try to verify anything that is novel.

If I talked to our local equine nutrtionist and got some information that seemed really off base or self serving (only buy this brand) I would discount it same as if it were from an anonymous source on line.

Anyhow, as I said, JB gives developed nutrition advice that I recognize as being in sync with current best practices, plus has the comparative data on the big American feed brands ( which are all unfamiliar to me) and consistently gives the best nutrition advice on COTH at this time.

Obviously any online advice even if you were paying an online nutritionist would need to be evaluated.

Maybe your horse doesn’t need more calories for topline. Maybe your horse has a degenerative disease or needs a better training program. Maybe you don’t need a hoof supplement but rather a better farrier.

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Nope, did not say that. Which begs the question what else do you misremember?

Can we stop this now? JB gives good nutrition advice that is inline with current best practices. Anyone is free to try that out, or stick with what they’ve always done.

Anyone who was up to speed with current best practices would see that JB is presenting those.

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You’re right, I did misremember that particular detail. Here’s what you actually said:

And just to be clear, you “misremembered” all that up there, I never once said any of that :wink:

You are implying and even stating (in a variety of places) that simply having an AS degree gives someone an automatic edge on equine nutrition, even if they only got the education in poultry or business, and not even necessarily any nutrition side of things.

Then you come here and proclaim that nobody becomes an expert simply by talking to an expert, but in the exact same post you say that anyone with an AS degree should be able to “read reference books or consult nutritionists” and give credible information. Can’t have it both ways.

What makes that AS grad so special that they can read and understand published professional literature, and consult with nutritionists who are used to talking to laymen, but nobody without some sort of biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, physiology, anatomy, cell biology etc, formal education is also capable? I’m pretty capable of reading a decent level of scientific literature. I don’t choose to take the formal courses because I don’t really want to spend that money, I don’t need a test to prove I can recall things out in the field. I know where to find the information I need if I don’t know it well enough already. And I will never tell anyone, or imply, that I have any sort of formal education, and I am always more than happy to point anyone who asks to the references where I get my information. I’ve done so many times.

We’re not talking about running and interpreting blood tests to discover allergies or colitis or leaky gut or protein malabsorption or kidney failure. We’re talking about pretty basic nutritional knowledge that is readily available to anyone with half a brain and who chooses to take the time to understand it.

So you are right in that you did not say that ALL AS grads would know equine nutrition. So, I have corrected myself about something I remembered in an exaggerated manner - where’s the courtesy of the same? You’ve certainly accused me of (made up) a whole lot of things I never said or hinted at, but you never provide the proof, or apologize for putting words into my mouth, no matter how many times I and a few others have asked. So why is that?

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Unfortunately JB can’t help him or herself from picking petty arguments (see post #17) based on some imaginary stuff that happened somewhere in a galaxy far far away. Let it gooooo…………