Devastated! Dream foal has Sow mouth, Help!

[Redhorseeg]

As I write this I am devastated. I recently purchased my dream welsh pony filly( I am 4’10"). She is as fancy as they come. She was purchased from a decently well- known breeder. However, as soon as I got her home, i realized she had sow mouth. When i confronted the breeder, she of course had no idea, and supposedly the vet looked at her 3 times and was sure it wasnt there either. Basically she told me i had no idea what i was talking about( even though i have been in the horse industry for 20 years) and said she would grow out of it. I had my vet out and he feels it is serious and is not convinced at all she will grow out of it. That being said, he does not see the volume of ponies the sellers vet does. I have so many emotions and could really use some advice.
She was originally purchased for show, riding and for sure breeding in the future, and was advertized as such. I am going to attach photos, but will have to do so from work as my phone says the files are too big. The underbite is currently 1/4 inch and she is 6 months old.

A. Does anyone have experience with this, especially in Welsh Ponies?
B. If you think it’s serious, what would you expect of the seller?
C. Where does breeding her in the future fit in? I have seen so much conflicting info, and very little substantiating it being congenital enough to warrant refusing to breed carte blanche unless its extremely severe.

I would welcome any and all feedback!

[Redhorseeg]

Here is a photo.

[Texarkana]

I’ve never heard the term “sow mouth” used; I’ve always just called that an underbite. But a university dental specialist once told me the best thing to do for a foal with an overbite or underbite is to feed them on the ground and just check their teeth regularly. Feeding on the ground encourages the mandibles to slide forward properly, and there are interventions that can be performed through flotation if it begins to worsen. Usually these things are non-issues unless they are allowed to become exacerbated, and she’s still young enough that she could grow out of it.

[Victorious]

I agree with Texarkana-Ive never actually heard of sow-mouth. Is it just an underbite? My filly had a parrot mouth when she was young, like a couple months old. The vet freaked the heck out of me by talking about braces and correction. At this point, my kids didn’t even have braces! No way was I about to put them on my horse! I opted for watchful neglect. She is fine. I left her to grow up and graze and do baby type things and its a non-problem. That would be my advice to you. Give her a chance to correct and maybe have a vet that knows weanlings check her periodically. (The teenage kids do have braces now-but thats another thread)

[snaffle1987]

I wouldn’t worry too much about it. as noted above; feed on the ground and maybe talk with a well known equine dentist in your area about other maintenance avenues. I have not heard of this in welsh. She may grow out of it in time if she is very young.

[beau159]

I don’t have personal experience with an under-bite, but my understanding it is can be managed just fine with proper dental care.

Did you examine the filly in-person before purchasing her?

[gumtree]

IME Parrot mouth, an overbite is seems to much more seen, than a sow mouth, underbite. For whatever reasons. I have “inspected” mouths of 1000s of TB yearlings. Only on the odd occasions did I find a parrot mouth and far less of a somewhat sow mouth.

Parrot mouth is usually far more pronounced IME.

As far as the undesirability of this for potential buyers depends on the degree of the “defect” and more so on the “feelings” about it of the buyer. The majority of those “feelings” are based on old school holdover that the horse will not “do well”. The foal not being able to suckle well. Have trouble grazing, eating grains properly, hay etc. Develop teeth issues etc. European buyers of TB yearlings frown heavily on it. IMO and experience raising a few Parrot mouthed foals they never had any issues nursing. Never had any issues eating or grazing. The only “issue” with a parrot mouthed horse, esp one that have a pretty pronounced condition is it can be seen when looking at the horse from the side. The “bucked” teeth look, upper lip stick out pretty good.

To a breeder it maybe of a concern of being passed on. I have not found this to be true. We had enough foals out of mares that had the odd foal born with a parrot mouth. But never more than the one. Not sure if there have been any studies worth taking to the bank on this.

Yes, I am told it can be corrected but as explained it is far more involved than just putting "braces"on. Had a colt for a client who bred to race. The day after foaling I told him he got a really nice foal. But he was parrot mouthed. A pretty sizable one. I explained that is was a “cosmetic” condition and not to be worried because they horse wasn’t going to be sold. Of course he went to the internet to look it up. And got all kinds of conflicting “advise”. He asked to find out what it would cost to correct. I told him as much as $15,000. Plus the additional after care expenses I would have to charge. Don’t bother trust me the colt will be just fine. The horse grew just fine, big good looking and a good racehorse. Other than his upper lip stuck out pretty good. As I said to him, this might come in handy in a photo finish.

In my somewhat limited experience with either condition and we were foaling 30+ mares a year for a while. Parrot or sow mouth is pretty much there one way or another from day one. Pretty hard to miss. Esp one with an overbite. I have found it generally develops proportionately in my limited experience with foals that are born with either. I would think the majority of breeders have a limited experience. It just doesn’t happen much.

Looking at the pictures I certainly wouldn’t be concerned. Way too many other things that can and do happen that have far more ramifications.

I would never buy a horse, esp a foal without personally inspecting it. Or if using an agent, one that I know is completely on the same page as me.

Too each their own on this.

[Texarkana]

I think overbites and underbites were a greater concern before advances in equine dentistry. The incisors would erupt continuously, worsening the bite problem over time, making it increasingly difficult for the horse to eat, and stressing the TMJ joint.

Now, we can power float those suckers level. So as long as you don’t have a major congenital mismatch in mandible sizes (which it does not appear to be based on the pictures), it can be managed before problems develop.

But at 6 months old with only a 1/4" difference, I’m still willing to bet there’s a chance it could correct itself so long as you’re encouraging her to use her jaws to eat off the ground like nature intended.

[clint]

I haven’t bred and managed nearly as many foals as gumtree, but I have done quite a few. In all that time I have only seen one, a foal of mine who had an overbite, about 1/4 inch. I hoped it would correct on its own but it didn’t. On the other hand, it never made the slightest difference. He maintained weight fine and developed into a lovely performance horse. FWIW, his dam had four foals, one of them a full brother, and none of them had a dental issue.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Devastated…why. On those pictures, I wouldn’t be concerned. Yes, perhaps it isn’t perfect…but it isn’t so imperfect that it looks like it will impact a sports career. Feed on the ground, lots of good grass…and keep her in a good program with a good dentist.

[BeeHoney]

I’m not a vet or a dentist, but it doesn’t look bad to me. My first thought would be to get an equine dentist to give you another opinion–most likely reassurance. My second thought, to reassure yourself, would be to look at how the pony grazes and eats and how the teeth wear against each other. If the upper teeth are hitting the lower gums and the horse is causing itself irritation (and potentially pain) to the gums every time it bites grass or hay, that’s a problem. If, however, they just don’t line up quite right, but the pony has no problems grazing/eating and is in good weight and the teeth otherwise look like they are wearing pretty normally, I don’t see much to worry about.

IME (and I’m no pony breeder, just have a reasonable amount of experience with them over the years) ponies need regular dental care just as much if not more than full size horses. In any case, most modern horse and pony owners tend to see to it that their horses have regular dental care anyway. So, if there is a malocclusion that causes the pony to need a little extra floating, I see that as absolutely no big deal–the pony is going to be having regular floats anyway.

But, I’d be surprised if the pony did require extra dental care, because IME, front teeth issues seem to be mostly cosmetic. Horses seem to tolerate missing front teeth and incisor malocclusions very well. I once took care of a horse with a severe parrot mouth. His upper gums were somewhat inflamed where the lower teeth met them–his top and bottom front teeth did not meet. Oddly, the horse (a TB) had no discernible trouble eating, kept weight on just fine and was very quiet with his mouth when bridled/ridden with no sign of mouth pain/mouth opening, head tossing, etc. I’ve seen others with mild-moderate parrot mouth be totally fine as well.

I agree with others that people used to get more excited about malocclusions in the days when good equine dentistry was often neither utilized or even available. Nowadays, with excellent dentists readily available and most vets coming out of vet school with training in dentistry, minor dental issues are usually easily managed.

[goodpony]

some minor malocclusions are managed and corrected though specialized dentistry-yes even foals can have dentistry. When examining the detention for severity be sure you are not lifting the head-their heads are normally evaluated in a standing/relaxed position. The goal of this kind of dentistry is to make sure that the back teeth are not locking and interfering with growth. Ponies have notoriously large “ribbon candy” teeth and can occasionally get locked up in the jaw without management.

[Daventry]

I had to go and look up what sow mouth meant. We have been breeding Welsh for almost 15 years and I have never heard about any problems with parrot mouth or under bite. That being said, I am sure there are cases of it happening in any breed. I am not an expert on under bites, but agree with others that it doesn’t look severe and your best bet might be to consult with an equine dentist to see if there is anything that can be done to help it, or lessen the severity as the foal gets older.

[starboard]

what does the bite look like when she is in the grazing position? The mandible should slide into a more normal position once head is down I think? It does not look bad, but the best person to ask is a very good dentist.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

I once boarded where the BO bred her horses and one foal had a sow mouth. The BO sold the horse as a 3 yr old to someone who did not know much about horses, but had returned one horse and chose the filly with the sow mouth. The filly had no difficulty eating, and appeared to be fine as a riding horse. I’d not buy a horse with a sow mouth, but I think one could be ok if otherwise a good horse.

Always get a PPE

[maunder]

I have a mini mare with a sow mouth. That is the term used by my veterinarian. In Sarah’s case, she was born with it, and it affects her whole jawline. She requires dental every 8 months or so, and moist food to help her eat. Her breeder sold her as pet quality only.

My mini mule developed sow mouth as he has begun to mature.

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995611}[/ATTACH]
That’s Sweet Sarah with her mouth open and slightly extended. Sarah is about 11 years old now.

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995612}[/ATTACH]
Above is Sarah with her mouth closed.

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995613}[/ATTACH]
Above is Sarah’s profile.
[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995614}[/ATTACH]
Above is Gunther. Granted, he’s having his bum scrubbed, but this shows how crooked his mouth is.

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995615}[/ATTACH]
Gunther’s mouth isn’t so obvious under normal activity. He’s about 4 years old.

[NancyM]

This is not something that I would be “devastated” about. There are far more “devastating” things that can happen than this when people own horses.

It is an “imperfection”, but both horses and people are impacted by such things regularly, and they are part of life, and must often be accepted if you are going to be a happy person.

Should a vet or seller have caught this imperfection before selling you the pony? Perhaps they should have. Perhaps they did and didn’t tell you about it. Perhaps it has developed only recently during the growth of the young horse, and they both missed it. Impossible to know which possibility has occurred. Whether you want to make a fuss about it now that you own the pony is a decision you have to make for yourself. Depends on just how devastated you are on finding an imperfection in your pony. Some sellers may accept the return of a horse they have sold, when the buyer is dissatisfied with the purchase, some won’t. How devastated are you? Is your dream to show this pony in halter classes only? Or are you looking for a riding and sport pony? Do you like the pony other than this imperfection?

I agree that undershot configuration is rare. I’ve only seen one other case in the last 50 years of owning horses. It did not bother the horse, she ate just fine, and was ridden without issue. Modern dentistry makes this issue a bit of a non issue as far as performance and health goes.

As for potential breeding and issues with inheritance, it seems unlikely that it will be passed on. But not impossible. It would be one of the many risks that you, as the owner, would have to assume and accept, should this filly earn the right to reproduce with her superior competitive performance in the future.

There is no such thing as “perfection” in a horse. Or a human. We all have flaws. JMHO.

[cnigh]

One other thing to think about are those look like baby teeth. Her bite may change when her adult teeth come in.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@maunder

I have a mini mare with a sow mouth. That is the term used by my veterinarian. In Sarah’s case, she was born with it, and it affects her whole jawline. She requires dental every 8 months or so, and moist food to help her eat. Her breeder sold her as pet quality only.

My mini mule developed sow mouth as he has begun to mature.

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995611}[/ATTACH]
That’s Sweet Sarah with her mouth open and slightly extended. Sarah is about 11 years old now.

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995612}[/ATTACH]
Above is Sarah with her mouth closed.

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995613}[/ATTACH]
Above is Sarah’s profile.
[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995614}[/ATTACH]
Above is Gunther. Granted, he’s having his bum scrubbed, but this shows how crooked his mouth is.

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:9995615}[/ATTACH]
Gunther’s mouth isn’t so obvious under normal activity. He’s about 4 years old.

OMG OMG OMG. They look like little cartoon character and I want to squeeze both of them.

Carry on…

[maunder]

@Pennywell Bay

OMG OMG OMG. They look like little cartoon character and I want to squeeze both of them.

Carry on…

hee hee hee. I love them, no matter what their conformation faults.