The protocol question of what various officials can do about something like this is interesting so time to get out the new rule book. I’m going to be looking, specifically, to see if this is a show management decision of how to handle or if Stewards actually hold some power in writing up a violation.
This type of incident is clearly a Welfare of the horse issue.
Hmm. I’m presuming that this is different than the sores a horse might get from scratches?
oh no! I’m so sad:no:
I really thought I was going to come here on CoTH after a long days work to the usual “stop stirring the pot and making up rumors” I got last time. Guess I cross DR off the list of East Coasters to root for.
Question: what happens to the awards his horses won before he got caught? (I know a big customer won both the low and high A/O classics, with horses that were brave but not so careful types with previous owners. THAT would be a unfortunate wake up for them.)
[QUOTE=marginall;8295910]
If DR is involved, I’m guessing sensitizing legs, poling, enthusiastic use of a whip a la George Morris.[/QUOTE]
Thank you somebody for finally saying it… GM is definitely no angel and certainly not the god everyone has him cracked up to be… Between that and the barely legal underwear models
[QUOTE=Alterrain;8296850]
oh no! I’m so sad:no:
Question: what happens to the awards his horses won before he got caught? (I know a big customer won both the low and high A/O classics, with horses that were brave but not so careful types with previous owners. THAT would be a unfortunate wake up for them.)[/QUOTE]
If they were A/O horses, then the owner was likely the rider. And I find it hard to believe that any rider wouldn’t know his/her horse was sored.
Perhaps I’m naive, and I know it’s very common to have the horse tacked up by others. But still, wouldn’t the owner see the legs at some point?
If not, then it’s a wake up call in more than one sense.
I have been up close and personal with a few of his horses and I’ve never noticed or seen anything. I know a few of the horses and riders who ride with him and have never noticed anything wrong with them when I’ve interacted with them.
haven’t been around them for the better part of a month, but still, thought I may as well say it
One question, y’all. Is there ANY support for this actually happening other than a couple statements on an internet bulletin board? I’m worrying that we’re being a bit quick to convict here.
The horse show threw him and his clients out. They don’t do that for good behavior or no reason…
[QUOTE=Jmprridr;8297220]
The horse show threw him and his clients out. They don’t do that for good behavior or no reason…[/QUOTE]
But…can any poster with a substantial history of posting on this board verify this, at least?
You can look at the show results for yourself… He did not show his seven year olds on Sunday, nor any open horses Saturday or Sunday. His client mentioned above did not show either, and she had already won during the week.
[QUOTE=Jmprridr;8297225]
You can look at the show results for yourself… He did not show his seven year olds on Sunday, nor any open horses Saturday or Sunday. His client mentioned above did not show either, and she had already won during the week.[/QUOTE]
While that is true, at the moment, there hasn’t been anything official posted anywhere (i.e. a statement by DR, or by the horse show, or whatever). I wouldn’t expect there to be for a while if it’s true and the USEF is taking action against him; he’ll show up on the naughty list on the site at some point, but not for some time.
If it’s true and not just hearsay.
Edited to add this quote from the Facebook page of a top international rider:
“It was very upsetting to first hear and now read about the rumors of a rider in The Hampton Classic using cruel techniques to sensitize his team’s horses legs. These rumors do no good for our industry’s reputation and until the person involved is proven guilty, it’s important to stop spreading the rumor and respect the professional involved.
If he is proven guilty of burning the horses legs with chemicals, or harming the horse in any way to make them sensitive and less prompt to have rails down, he is not only cheating but he is also violating the principles of why we practice the sport, for the respect and love of the horses.
I personally wish that the rumors are just rumors, and if they’re not, that the USEF and FEI take the most extreme measures to make sure that cruelty and lack of FairPlay is eliminated from this beautiful passion and sport that we horse lovers practice.”
Question, if horse show officials catch a trainer using cruelty during a horse show…is the correct procedure really to “throw him out”? Not initiate the sanctions process and have the trainer remain while the SPCA or other authorities are called???
Assuming the horse is on the grounds schooling or in a stall and is seen to have seemingly man-made wounds/sores on the legs. What IS the correct procedure for the horse show under these hypothetical circumstances? Does anyone know?
[QUOTE=vxf111;8297309]
Question, if horse show officials catch a trainer using cruelty during a horse show…is the correct procedure really to “throw him out”? Not initiate the sanctions process and have the trainer remain while the SPCA or other authorities are called???
Assuming the horse is on the grounds schooling or in a stall and is seen to have seemingly man-made wounds/sores on the legs. What IS the correct procedure for the horse show under these hypothetical circumstances? Does anyone know?[/QUOTE]
In short, yes, it is procedure to bar him from continuing at the competition per GR838.
GR839 Cruelty to and Abuse of a Horse
[QUOTE=vxf111;8297309]
Question, if horse show officials catch a trainer using cruelty during a horse show…is the correct procedure really to “throw him out”? Not initiate the sanctions process and have the trainer remain while the SPCA or other authorities are called???
Assuming the horse is on the grounds schooling or in a stall and is seen to have seemingly man-made wounds/sores on the legs. What IS the correct procedure for the horse show under these hypothetical circumstances? Does anyone know?[/QUOTE]
In short, yes, it is procedure to bar him from continuing at the competition per GR839.
GR839 Cruelty to and Abuse of a Horse
Cruelty to or the abuse of a horse by any person at a Licensed Competition is forbidden, constitutes a violation under Chapter 7, and renders the offender subject to penalty. The Show Committee must bar violators from further participation for the remainder of the competition. It is the duty of the competition officials and any properly constituted humane organization to report to the Federation any person who indulges in this practice for such further action as may be deemed appropriate.
The Federation or the Judge, Steward, or TD may appoint a veterinarian to inspect any animal in competition. Refusal to submit an animal for examination by an authorized veterinarian after due notification shall constitute a violation.
Show Committees are encouraged to contact the American Humane Association, 1400 16th Street NW, Suite 360, Washington DC 20036, which will provide experienced humane inspectors to work with them in eliminating cruel practices.
The following acts are included under the words Cruelty and Abuse but are not limited thereto:
a. Excessive use of a whip on any horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition ring or elsewhere on the competition grounds, before or during a competition, by any person. Except in emergency situations, any striking of the horse’s head (on the poll and forward of the poll) with the whip shall be deemed excessive.
b. Rapping the legs of a horse with the butt end of a riding crop or other implement.
c. Use of any substance to induce temporary heat.
d. Manual poling with any object other than a bamboo pole.
e. Use of a wire or chain in conjunction with any schooling jump.
f. Use of electric device in schooling or showing.
g. Use of shackles, hock hobbles and similar devices (not to be construed as rubber or elastic exercising devices).
h. Showing a horse with raw or bleeding sores around the coronets, pasterns or legs.
i. Use of any explosive (e.g., fire crackers, torpedoes, fire extinguishers except in case of fire, etc.) or laser beam devices anywhere on the competition grounds, except in an exhibition or if required in class specifications.
j. Withholding of feed and water for prolonged periods.
k. Letting blood from a horse for other than diagnostic purposes.
l. Inhumane treatment of a horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition ring or elsewhere on the competition grounds, by any person.
m. Use of any object that prevents the horse’s ability to close his mouth. (Exception: use of an oral speculum by a veterinarian or equine dentist to provide legitimate dental/oral medical care.)
n. Soreing and/or the use of an action device on any limb of a Tennessee Walking Horse, Racking Horse, or Spotted Saddle Horse (each a breed not recognized by the Federation) in any class at a Federation Licensed Competition is prohibited. An action device is defined by the USDA as any boot, collar, chain, roller, or other device that encircles or is placed upon the lower extremity of the leg of a horse in such a manner that it can rotate around the leg or slide up and down the leg so as to cause friction or strike the hoof, coronet band, fetlock joint or pastern of the horse. (Protective bell boots or heel boots are specifically excluded from this definition). The use of a weighted shoe, pad, wedge, in conjunction with a hoof band or other device or material (commonly referred to as a performance package) placed on, inserted in, or attached to any limb of a Tennessee Walking Horse, a Racking Horse, or Spotted Saddle Horse (each a breed not recognized by the Federation) constructed to artificially alter the gait of such a horse, and which are not protective or therapeutic in nature, in classes at a Federation Licensed Competition is prohibited.
Any action(s) against a horse by a competitor or an exhibitor, which are deemed excessive by a judge, Federation steward, technical delegate or competition veterinarian, in the competition ring or anywhere on the competition grounds may be punished by official warning, elimination, or other sanctions which may be deemed appropriate by the Show Committee. Such action(s) could include, but are not limited to excessive use of the whip, spurs, or bamboo poles. Competitors and exhibitors have the right to contest any action taken pursuant to GR839.5 by filing a protest or grievance pursuant to Chapter 6 of the Rules for hearing and determination by the Hearing Committee.
Looking at their facebook page, all of their horses wear front boots so any “issues” might easily be hidden. If he was “thrown out” of the show, why were the USEF stewards NOT after him. Why wasn’t a report filed or authorities called. If he was in-fact caught soring his horses; that is a serious animal welfare concern. Escorting him off the property does not keep that from occurring again. Has anyone questioned show management or the stewards who were on hand that day. As USEF members; our money from shows and memberships pays these officials. I expect them to take their job seriously and to ensure the horses in competition are well cared for and not abused. If no action is taken against this owner/rider; there should be a riot towards USEF. Hoping someone can better clarify what in fact went wrong and WHAT is being done about it
I think the stewards report goes to USEF and then USEF has a hearing where everyone gets to plead their case, guilt is determined and punishment is handed out, if applicable. So as supershorty said, it will be a long time before the general USEF population hears anything official. That is my understanding of the process.
Not sure why you all think that this alleged incident was not included in the steward’s report. Have you all seen it? Your membership money has nothing to do with paying the stewards. Horse show management pays them. It sounds like you won’t be happy until you see the offender hanging on a cross tarred and feathered at the gate of the horse show. Relax. If there truly was a serious violation I have confidence that two very experienced stewards handled it in the appropriate manner.
I will wait for official review before believing tittle tattle on a board
I can see a different scenario
grooms use a new product or one that has gone off for rub down and leg wrap
legs react and inflame
trainer and riders report to office and after consult withdraw
[QUOTE=hoopoe;8297385]
I will wait for official review before believing tittle tattle on a board
I can see a different scenario
grooms use a new product or one that has gone off for rub down and leg wrap
legs react and inflame
trainer and riders report to office and after consult withdraw[/QUOTE]
Again not rendering a judgment on this specific case, but the hypo at least as alleged is that multiple horses had sores. Seems unlikely that the grooms would screw up on multiple horses and that multiple horses would have a reaction and that multiple horses would be ridden and schooled without someone noticing?!
he’s been sensitizing horses legs for years and years. you can’t really see it since the abrasions and chemicals are on the skin beneath the fur. he’s not the only GP rider/trainer to do it. generally, you can tell b/c the horses get agitated in their stalls where it’s done by his groom.
he also trains them at home the same way over jumps with metal rods so when they hit them, it stings (also a la George Morris). he is impressively ambidextrous with a whip and isn’t shy about using this training aid at home or in the warm up ring. George Morris also taught him this, and DR will be the first one to tell you they beat a horse till it bled and did what they asked it to do.
while some clients have left DR b/c of his training methods, most clients either turn a blind eye or believe their trainer when they deny allegations much like a person who hears their partner is cheating on them.
he’s not the only one who does it, and i doubt anything will change b/c of this. lovely sport, isn’t it?
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