Hello. I’m looking at used Devoucoux saddles as I love the feel of them, but am not understanding how I’d heard that they fit so many horses? I’ve only ever had wool paneled saddles, and had a saddle fitter come out to properly fit at least once a year. But obviously there is not flocking with foam panels, and if they did need to be adjusted and sent out it’s expensive. Also, I don’t have a Devoucoux rep anywhere near me to check. I can do a trial with most used ones I am looking at, just not sure where to start. Would love your thoughts and experience. Thank you.
In my limited experience with Devocoux, they only fit about 10% of horses…yet the reps insist they fit 95%. Lots of pinched shoulders and sore backs. They are “rider” saddles that feel cushy and secure…but I wouldn’t touch them after seeing the messed up horses afterward. No foam saddles for me, flocked only.
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Read. Read again. And again.
If you’re in the luck 5-10%, fabulous. If you’re not, then you’ve spent A LOT of money on a very pretty piece of decoration. Chances are it’ll resale ok, but you’re still going to take a significant hit financially, plus whatever you spend on resolving your horse’s back soreness, etc.
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This thread caught my eye, as a friend & I have been talking about a mutual friend’s Devocoux. That friend LOVES it. Except it puts her in a HORRIBLE chair seat position. Her hunter trainer recommended the saddle to her, so I’m sure that’s why he doesn’t bother with telling her she’s in a horrible position. Ironically the horse has had all sorts of soft tissue injuries. I can’t say it’s because of the saddle, but the way she sits on him and jumps him, it can’t help.
About 2 years ago she had the local rep out and I was saddle shopping at the time, so I went to her barn to check out the rep. Her saddle is older and needed new foam panels (which Devoucoux could do…so that’s impressive). But the rep was telling her the saddle would fit her narrow shark fin withered gelding as well as it would fit her rounder, broad backed young gelding in training (she proclaims this sight unseen). I’m no expert, but after I heard that, I decided the fitter/rep was full of it…
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Let’s add this to the long list of saddle sales reps overpromising on fit.
Would any sales rep say: this tree is a bad fit for your horse, and no alteration to the panels will make it fit well, so go down the road to my competitor at Other Big Brand because those trees will be a better match for you and I don’t care about losing my commission on this $6000 saddle?
I understand that foam panels can be customized to a horse. But it is a bigger job than just tweaking wool flocking. It’s also possible there is more latitude to fit in a foam panels. But no way can the same tree, let alone same tree + panel, fit multiple different horses unless perhaps you throw a bunch of shim pads into the mix. And that doesn’t count as optimal fit IMHO.
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Most companies, if they are being honest, only fit about 80% of horses with their entire range. This means multiple trees and panel opinions available. It does not make business sense most of the time to chase the other 20% for most companies. That is why you have companies that specialize in a particular type of horses like Lovetts and Rickets. My understanding is that Devoucoux has 2 tree shapes and 2 panel opinions. Feel free to correct me if am wrong. I always love learning new things.
There is not one saddle or saddle company that fits everything. That is why I carry such a range of saddles and there is always more saddles that I would like to have for my customers.
I would highly recommend following the the Centaur of Biomechanics. They do a lot of research into how saddles and tack fit horses. I got a preview of a new study that they are hoping to publish by Christmas that makes me like these saddles even less for horses. I can not go into the details because they ask me not get into details until after the study is release.
https://www.facebook.com/Centaur-Biomechanics-238905202843417/
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Not quite right. They have two different tree sizes for each model, but have several models that fit differently. The problem arises when the rider likes one model, but another would be better suited to the horse. I think this is why there are a lot of fit issues coming out of the French brands - it’s not so much that they can’t fit a totally standard WB back - it’s that they are being sold to the rider and then sort of made do for the horse. To be clear, I don’t sell any of these brands. I’ve just been a customer of all the big French brands at various times and had a lot of them on the same horse to be able to see and feel the differences.
I don’t personally love Devoucoux mostly because of the lack of variety in their models - large flaps that don’t fit riders well and kind of weird panels, but some horses really agree with the D3D system, especially those with strongly muscled backs. Jury is out on their new dressage saddle which has a tree using the same concept as the Equipe E-Carbon and shares a lot of features with the CWD 2GS carbon tree (now that Devoucoux and CWD are one and the same parent company). I have had a lot of success with the CWD 2GS tree and am now a dressage rider so I am watching with interest.
Antares in particular has a lot of tree options that in general actually fit wider horses well, and I think some horses could really benefit from getting away from the thick gusseted wool panels that are popular on dressage saddles in particular. There is a theory that the wide panel disperses more pressure but on a lot of horses they are too wide and it’s coming off the edge of the dorsi muscle which is worse than having a slimmer foam panel, IMO.
I’m interested to discuss this with some of the master saddlers at Annette Gavin’s saddlery school in November.
With the wool panels, are you thinking the panels are too deep, or too wide, or the channel is too wide, or all three?
Until horse definitively grew out of it, I used an older County jump saddle that had a narrower channel than my fitter liked and narrower panels. Horse went just fine in it.
Some of the brands are promoting maximum huge channels and panels for sure. It is interesting to start hearing, and not just from you here, that this exaggeration might not be ideal either.
I am thinking both that they are generally taller than most horses need (unless you have an extreme sway back) and also wider (sometimes too wide), with a wider channel. Some horses do need the super-wide channel, and I do think that channels needed to be wider than they were historically, but you also have to imagine where the rider’s seatbones are sitting and where that is in relation to the panels to understand how the tree is carrying the weight and dispersing it. We don’t want the weight on the spine, but we DO want it on the strong musculature nearby. Going too wide and too broad in the panels deliberately moves the weight off this area and this is a mistake. I think some fitters understand this and some do not (not making any accusations here and going off the subject of Devoucoux saddles).
Anecdote is not the plural of data, but I personally think my horses go better in a foam flocked saddle that is lighter weight and sits closer to their back, and I also ride better. The foam also have the advantage of either fitting, or not fitting, in a much more black and white way than a wool saddle where you can go very deeply down a rabbit hole of trying to tweak this or adjust that to make it work perfectly - which is an inexpert science at best.
In either case, the quality of the fitter matters a lot in the overall equation.
I do also think it’s interesting that the saddle pendulum is swinging in favor of the European brands, at least in dressage circles where the preference used to be resoundingly British. From talking to people who use them (in addition to myself, and I’m no olympian nor will I ever play one on TV), I don’t think it’s because they offer exceptional rider comfort, necessarily, but instead that the horses actually go better, and not just in the short term. This has really coincided with these carbon fiber, lighter weight, more minimalist saddles and I don’t think people would willingly switch unless there was a benefit besides spending more money.
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Interesting! That’s the first really good explanation of the new trend in foam panels that I’ve heard. Everyone else has said, to each their own, etc.
I realize the foam panels on a (semi) “custom” saddle can be built to fit a particular horse. But if you buy a second hand foam saddle, can it be adjusted? Would you need to work through the manufacturer at a distance or is this something an independent fitter could learn to do?
I am currently riding in a 2001 Passier Optimum dressage saddle that’s wool flocked but not nearly as bulgy panels as newer saddles. I used a sheepskin halfpad for years until maresy’s withers filled out enough to go without. And it was only after I stopped using the sheepskin that I really started to be able to feel her back under the saddle.
So the argument about having less under there is interesting.
Im starting to shop for a new to me jump saddle. The local second hand market is flooded with used CWD and Voltaire and other foam French brands. I haven’t seen a second hand County for sale in a while. Now does this mean that many people made mistakes with their French saddles, or that the saddles are wearing out fast, or that they love them so much they are constantly upgrading? 
A new CWD can be up to $CAN $10,000.
Panels can be replaced or foam can be removed from the existing panel, but it can’t be added in situ, so to speak. But really, it shouldn’t need to be unless the horse changes shape drastically or outgrows the saddle. Wool flocking changes daily with heat, exposure to moisture, pressure, etc. Foam is temperature sensitive but that’s pretty much it. If a French saddle is fitted correctly you probably won’t have to make a lot of changes to it unless you make the mistake of fitting one exactly to an unfit, very young, or undermuscled horse and then want it to fit that same horse whose body has totally changed.
in general it is easier to seek out a different saddle versus repaneling, since as you said, there is no shortage.
I think the plethora of used saddles out there is for a couple of reasons:
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These saddles are popular with h/j riders who greatly outnumber eventing or dressage riders;
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Horse ownership tends to turn over more quickly with h/j riders, especially juniors, who might lease something for 6 months or a year then need a new horse and thus a new saddle;
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There is more trainer loyalty in that area, where a trainer might pick one saddle brand one year and insist that everyone in their program ride in one, then two years later switch brands. Anecdotally this seems to be dying down as saddle prices have gone stratospheric;
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A lot of fitters are bad so people end up with saddlesthat don’t work for them or their horse, leading to them reselling and trying again. I don’t think that’s unique to French saddles - I see lots of expensive British dressage saddles being sold at a big loss nearly new.
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Ok, so if I wanted a foam saddle second hand i’d need to shop for perfect fit, because there won’t be a rep to customize panels as part of the purchase price.
Do you think the foam panels have more or less tolerance for fit than wool flocking?
I also know there is a huge market in gummy foamy shimmed etc saddle pads for jump saddles, which I expect is how folks tweak fit. But if a foam saddle was giving closer contact I wouldn’t want that extra layer there.
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I cringe when people say their saddles fit all the horses they put it on, Um, no it doesn’t. I laugh at ads that suggest these brands fit every horse, because they can be adjusted. Not many of these saddles are that adjustable. So many times I’ve seen CWD claim to fit tons of horses, I know they have different panels, but still, you’re limited on the adjustments.
Get a saddle fitter, and find a saddle that works, not a brand.
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My saddle fitter strongly prefers wool flocked saddles as she is trained to modify and repair them so she is no real help in the World of Foam!
Devoucoux destroyed my horses back and it took a year to get her right. On a saddle that appeared to fit perfectly. Run, run away.
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This is where I take a little bit of umbrage with the whole wool vs foam debate.
Generally speaking if your horse changes SHAPE so dramatically that a foam saddle won’t fit - your wool one won’t either. Both types of saddles suffer from the limitation of being governed by the tree shape. Changing size is not that phenomenally big a deal and most horses retain the same overall profile while the musculature changes, which might lead to increased width needs. This can change the needed shape a bit but a horse with a flat back is always going to have a flat back, a horse with high withers is always going to have high withers. The exception to this is young horses who probably won’t even have a wither until they’re 4 or 5 years old, and then you have to make a total change.
I see a LOT of saddles where someone (a trained fitter) has tried to fudge the tree shape by removing flocking and adding flocking or trying to fix the rider balance with flocking which then changes the way the saddle fits the horse. This does not work. Just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should - flocking adjustments are for minor changes. If the tree doesn’t fit, it’s not going to fit whether the saddle is wool or foam. End of story.
I also think it’s true that if these saddles were ruining horses backs the way a lot of people accuse them of doing - upper level riders wouldn’t ride in them even if they were free. Their horses and careers are too valuable to ruin them over a saddle sponsorship.
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Yes, maresy outgrew one wool flocked saddle, and grew into another one. The one we outgrew still fitted at the withers, it just started to float above her back and shift behind when she moved. She was not bothered by this but I was!
The one we grew into needed a sheepskin half pad to keep the saddle stable at the withers until suddenly it didn’t.
I can see her back and withers widening over the years through 3 or 4 sets of back tracings.
I do agree that the basic front to back rocker curve on a horse doesn’t change much unless their back starts to let down in old age.
What changes is width of withers and width of back. Also how much their back comes up in collected movements which might be more dressage than jumping. Maybe bascule in jumping as you go higher?
LOL
Yes, yes they would.
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I’ve seen some decently priced used Devoucoux saddles pop up every now and again, but I’ve resisted the urge to snag one. I prefer wool, but have nothing against foam really.
I had a foam panel Prestige recently that fit my horse well, was short enough for his nonexistent back, and had appropriate channel width with smaller panels. In theory all was good, but he became back sore. Then objected more to going forward.
So I shopped around and ended up with a saddle that’s a little longer and the panels a little larger. So it takes up more “real estate” on his back, but isn’t hanging over his sides or anything. His back soreness went away, and he’s moving freely again.
I don’t blame this in Prestige or foam per say, the Prestige fit well (reputable fitter and my eye is decently trained) enough but he prefers the new saddle that is almost a smidge too long and a bit bigger. I’ve been watching for soreness in the most pparanoid manner :lol:
Zaldi also has a theory about shorter saddles not always being the answer. I don’t know how legit it is, but you have to listen to the horse. Sometimes they can be a bit unorthodox. Other times straight forward to fit.
Type of panels is irrelevant to me as long as their in good shape (no hard spots, damage, etc) and fit the horse. Some wool flocked saddles can definitely be a bit more “bulky” though.
Would a rep work with you long distance through tracing, pictures, and video? Not ideal, but maybe a little better than just taking a stab at it alone.
