Diagnosing causes for stopping at jumps

[evilc123]

I had a bad XC accident a couple years ago with my horse who was 5 at the time, 7 now, and I have not been able to return to jumping. Since my accident he developed a pretty bad stopping problem in both SJ and XC within a few mos of starting with a new rider. He has had two riders since my accident, the first was a professional who was a bit of a backwards/defensive rider, and the current one is a much bolder amateur rider. He is a bit better with the amateur but still has issues and really needs to be pushed around courses, even after having dropped him from novice to BN to starter. The horse had always loved jumping and had never stopped with me when I was riding/competing him, though he did need a nice positive ride. I have had him fully vetted (incl. bone scan, gastroscopy), saddles checked, etc etc; and everything checks out. I feel like this issue is behavioral. This horse is such a cerebral trier and wants to do the right thing. My gut tells me he is not being naughty, but most trainers/clinicians have advised that he needs to be very “assertively” told that he needs to get over the jumps–which makes me a little uncomfortable is he is actually dealing with some sort of anxiety issue rather than naughtiness.
My questions are:

1. Is learned stopping behavior reversible?
2. Is it possible for a horse to have PTSD (both of us went down during the accident; he was fine, I left in an ambulance)? Is that giving him too much credit?
3. Has anyone had any success with an equine behaviorist? I am not sure whether I be looking for the right eventing trainer with experience working with similar horses, or whether I should turn to someone who specializes in equine behavior.

[endlessclimb]

I think he absolutely can have trauma over the event.

It’s up to you if you want to spend the time to recondition him or if he should find a new job.

Part of the reconditioning IS to tell him “this is what we’re going to do” and then praising him - over obstacles he absolutely can’t epically mess up. Confidence building repetition.

[NaturallyHappy]

I know of one that had a cross country accident and will.not.walk. over a pole. The accident was not w the current owner and I have no more details. The horse in question is very, very nice. I honestly couldn’t imagine roughing her up to get over a pole.

[CBoylen]

Was the accident at a jump? One bad crash may be enough to wreck one forever. They don’t all recover their confidence. If it hasn’t been fixed in two years the horse may never again be totally comfortable over fences. It happens. You can find him another job, or ride everything assertively with the understanding that sometimes it won’t be enough. You can’t “talk him out” of the behavior so really the answer is the same whatever the cause of the issue.

[luvmyhackney]

Sounds like some past trauma and needs a job that isn’t jumping for the time being.

How high are you trying to jump him? Does horse get nervous over cross rails, poles, once jumps go over a certain size, logs out on trails?

[evilc123]

When we had the accident, we were jumping up to 3’3" with ease and confidence. Now he will balk at a log. Poles are not an issue, but he will stop at a cross rail but jump a 3’ jump just fine, or vise versa.

[evilc123]

I was jumping a coop on a downhill and lost my balance and was trying to land on the left side since I had injured something on my other side a few weeks earlier. He panicked when he felt me about to fall, and he lost his balance and his hind end slipped and he felt onto me. He is definitely a mamas boy and one of the most sensitive caring horse souls I’ve known… But I don’t just wasn’t sure whether horse guilt/PTSD was a real thing. I don’t think the accident itself was traumatizing for him besides the fact that it left me unable to see him for months and still unable to jump him.

[fivestrideline]

A crash at/associated with a jump can absolutely end a horse’s jumping career just from the mental aspect. He may never jump again, or he may be happy toodling around lower stuff he can walk over, or only popping over a log on the trail, or really anything in between.

IIWM and I wanted to try to jump this horse again, I’d be starting him over. We’d be doing trails or dressage or whatever doesn’t involve jumping for a while. Then I’d go all the way back to lunging over poles, then flower boxes, then cavaletti. Then add a rider (still on the lunge), then go from there. I’d take it 10x slower than I would with a blank slate - either myself or with a soft, confident rider. You could also play with PR/clicker training if you wanted.

[fivestrideline]

@evilc123

Now he will balk at a log. Poles are not an issue, but he will stop at a cross rail but jump a 3’ jump just fine, or vise versa.

Can you identify another common denominator? Will he take a long spot but stop instead of chipping in? Is he likely to stop if the rider gets in anyway ahead of the motion, or drops him, or something like that? It could totally be that he’s very unsure but trying to be good, so the aggressive pro ride scares him but he also can’t tolerate a mistake from his rider. That’s a tough balance to find, but I don’t like horses that have to be aggressively ridden to just do their job. Better to find a way to give them some confidence or move them into a job they ARE confident in.

ETA:

@evilc123

But I don’t just wasn’t sure whether horse guilt/PTSD was a real thing. I don’t think the accident itself was traumatizing for him besides the fact that it left me unable to see him for months and still unable to jump him.

First part yes (poor associations/fear “PTSD”, not guilt), second part no. It is unlikely he associates the slip and fall with not seeing a human around. Much more likely he lost confidence and then the pro cowboyed him around more than he was ready for and ruined him (at least temporarily).

[NaturallyHappy]

If he will trot a pole, perhaps putting a correctly placed placing pole (for his trot step as opposed to standard measurements) in front of a cross rail will give him confidence. Start the exercise with poles only.
Gymnastics w predictable distances can help. If the quality of his canter is not good, a rider may be putting him to a questionable distance which will probably continue to scare him.
If he will jump at all, start w gymnastics on a soft rein w no rider interference.

[mika0116]

its not “guilt” as horses don’t really exactly have that emotion specifically. And horses are generally unconcerned about the whereabouts of a human during this time - horses don’t typically look to humans in times of crisis - he was likely mostly unbothered about not seeing you & you not jumping him. If the horse missed you and jumping - the situation would have been already remedied upon your return. The accident indeed WAS the trauma & was exacerbated by defensive pro getting after him too quickly.

PTSD is something that occurs in all sentient beings - the brain basically goes “something bad happened and this current situation aligns with the factors of the situation where something bad happened” That is basic survival instinct - all of us sentient beings have this in our core neurological structure.

Like with humans, not at PTSD is fixable - although many cases can be manageable with LOTS of support and building new neural pathways to combat the ingrained trauma responses.

Is it worth having this horse jump again if it means literally re-starting the animal and taking idk a few years to see if progress can be made safely with a very very confident and patient rider / trainer?

Just like a war vet avoids firework shows forever, sometimes horses need a different job entirely and to not be exposed to the trigger.

[EmilyM]

I agree with the posters that say this could be a PTSD type response. I have a horse that was always bold, and he lost his confidence when the trainer took a careful horse and tried to tune him up to avoid rubs (when he was still green). This horse was never the type to stop, but he started to. I had to mentally rehab him. Along the way he injured himself a few times and got physical rehab. but I think taking things slow due to the physical ailments are why he is back to himself. It took years (like 6 ). I mostly did it myself as an amateur because it seemed like pros always wanted too much from him. I’m fortunate that I have several horses, so I had others to ride, and I just took all the pressure off him. And starting back jumping was scary for me honestly because I didn’t know what he would do, but now I am having fun and he’s back to his old fiesty, confident self. It was a good accomplishment for me also to work through this because it required a lot of mental strength and “pretending” not to be worried. But I think to successfully do something like this, you need rides on other “normal” horses so that your confidence is high. You have to be a leader for your horse.

All that said, I don’t think it would have taken so many years had he not had the physical detours along the way. Maybe 2-3 though to really have him feeling happy and confident.

[CBoylen]

You’re looking at this a bit the wrong way. He doesn’t really care what happened to you. What he likely remembers is that he jumped a jump and fell down. That’s traumatic.

[Arlomine]

Yes, horses have trauma, remember, trauma, and can be forever shaped by trauma. If they didn’t, there would be a lot of dead horses.
I guess my question is why are you jumping this horse? Particularly cross country. He’s giving you clear communication… Personally, I would want a horse on a cross country course to be in the mindset that they will jump, despite all of my shortcomings as a rider…instead of requiring a specific babysitting/positive ride/perfect distance, whatever Exact combination of stars and moons aligning for them to get over to the other side. Not my cup of tea.
The whole point of cross country is it everybody’s having a gas. He is not. He counts. Find another job for this guy.

[NancyM]

I agree with others here… he sounds to me like he is frightened by his fall (not yours so much). He remembers. Horses are not fools. He may have thought it was kinda fun to jump previous to this, but that sort of accident can permanently scar a horse’s character, and he doesn’t think it’s as fun as he used to. Whether or not his mind can be changed about that is unknown to us here. Sometimes, perhaps it can be. Other times… not. It depends a lot on the horse himself, and, of course, the quality of the retraining and riding that is done with him in order to get him to participate again. Not all horses enjoy jumping… sometimes for good reason. Injury can be physical or mental. If he retains fear of jumping due to his fall, it makes sense that he isn’t keen on doing much of it again. Or, if his approach and take off spot is not perfect, or if the ride isn’t perfect, he will say “NO” instead of stepping in and fixing the issue that his rider can’t. Because you know that they cover for us when WE make a mistake… a talented horse who enjoys the job does, anyway. If he’s not doing that, it’s either a lack of talent, or a lack of desire to do the job on his part. He may have thought he was brave, before his fall. Now, not so much. Or, he may actually have physical damage from that fall that simply has not, or can not, be diagnosed by veterinary science.

He’s talking to you. It’s your job to listen to him.

[fanfayre]

Some horses just don’t want to do the job we, as their humans, set out for them or think they should do.
Case in point, my 2nd generation homebred, eventer dam, proven producer-of-Olympic-level-eventers sire (A Fine Romance/Fred) just didn’t ever take to the eventing life, and didn’t really like jumping at all (nor dressage either, and that’s a related matter), due to hock arthritis that was carefully managed. I never had a very traumatic fall off her, but she had a wicked stop at take-off so I did come off her many more times than any other horse I had ever ridden, so I listened to her and diverted her to low-level dressage and trail riding- she was a FABULOUS trail horse- brave and sensible. She just had something else going on that was never discovered or diagnosed. Sadly I put her down at the end of March when she told me with her body language and general demeanor told us she just wasn’t happy with life (for the very 1st time in her life she cooperated and followed the ‘rules’). She would have been 16 on the 20th…
I can’t imagine what would have happened to me if I insisted she remain an eventer, or her.

Listen to your horse- he is telling you, no, yelling at you, he wants a different job, and THAT’S OKAY.

[Demerara_Stables]

I’m going to be the odd one out here and say it is entirely possible that he associated the fall with not seeing you. He may not think “oh if I jump this then mom disappears again,” but he absolutely could be terrified of jumping because of the incident and the ensuing separation. How long did you own him before this happened?

To answer your questions:

@evilc123

My questions are:

1. Is learned stopping behavior reversible?
2. Is it possible for a horse to have PTSD (both of us went down during the accident; he was fine, I left in an ambulance)? Is that giving him too much credit?
3. Has anyone had any success with an equine behaviorist? I am not sure whether I be looking for the right eventing trainer with experience working with similar horses, or whether I should turn to someone who specializes in equine behavior.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes, kind of. I work with an animal communicator for instances exactly like this one. Where the horse has been completely checked out physically and we still can’t find the cause of the issue. In fact, if diagnostics are going to be expensive or the horse isn’t insured, I’ll check in with the communicator first to see if the horse can tell us something.

After you’ve talked with the horse via the communicator (or if you choose not to), then I’d echo what other people have said and start completely over, very slowly. Trot poles for months, until they are totally boring. Put them all over the ring so they are easy to walk over wherever you are. Once poles are boring, start longeing over cavalettis. If you have access to a large round pen, you could put poles and a cavaletti in there so he can go over them at liberty. I’ve also worked with some that stop in an arena but are much happier jumping small logs on XC, but you’ll just have to play around and see how he is. Give lots of praise and lots of cookies. Above all, have no agenda and realize that he may not get over it, but it’s definitely worth a shot.

[Bonnie2]

Why make him jump? There are plenty of other fun things to do!

[SillyHorse]

If your discipline is eventing, you aren’t looking to give it up for “other fun things to do.”

I bought a horse once that refused to trot over a pole on the ground, much less jump. Apparently, he’d gotten overfaced by a trainer and decided he wasn’t ever going to do that again. Well, I wanted to jump!

I figured starting from scratch was going to be our only chance. I walked him in hand over some poles, then trotted him over them, also in hand. We set up a tiny cross rail and together, side by side, we hopped over it. We did this for a few days after our rides. I think it was after about a week I pointed him at a cross rail (mounted) and he popped right over it. He turned out to be a jumping machine. He just needed to get his confidence back.

[BrownDerby]

And if a pole is too much for him, take it down to leading him over a lead rope on the ground. If that is too much, reduce it to a line drawn in the sand with the heel of your boot.