Most dogs trot in a way identical to horses. What shepherds do is akin to a running walk/pace.
They call it a flying trot.
No I did not know that because they are not, pacing in large dogs is often indicative of neurological problems. Here is one of the top German Shepherd dogs in the world at the trot, which they have to hold for a very long time in their licensing trials. it is a very extended gait and their hind legs overstep the fronts by quite a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zju0lubAaJ8 Watch from 9:49 for the extended trot.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7963349]
No I did not know that because they are not, gaiting in large dogs is often indicative of neurological problems. Here is one of the top German Shepherd dogs in the world at the trot, which they have to hold for a very long time in their licensing trials. it is a very extended gait and their hind legs overstep the fronts by a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A[/QUOTE]
No, gaiting is not considered a “neurological fault” in shepherds. Some dogs-- most notably doberman pinscers-- pace as well. As a matter of fact any dog can amble and this is considered perfectly normal, but most dogs only do it when tired/it’s not considered a breed trait.
Dingo vom haus gero was also a showline dog with an absolutely awful roach back and awful movement from a working standard. He was not bred to work. He would never make it as an actual working dog, only ever got his SchH3 and then stopped working completely (the title is required for registration) and his gait is not designed for actual working. It’s to look pretty and is an awful lot like paso finos doing those tiny little useless baby steps. He’s also been dead since the late 70s/early 80s and is therefore not top of anything anymore.
An actual working line german shepherd has a small delay between when the first and second foot hit the ground, it’s a much more comfortable gait that conserves a large amount of energy.
You also probably just googled “german shepherd movement” and found this video since it’s the first result.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7963349]
No I did not know that because they are not, pacing in large dogs is often indicative of neurological problems. Here is one of the top German Shepherd dogs in the world at the trot, which they have to hold for a very long time in their licensing trials. it is a very extended gait and their hind legs overstep the fronts by quite a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zju0lubAaJ8 Watch from 9:49 for the extended trot.[/QUOTE]
loved the video - but curious, why does dingo’s left hind go to the inside and his right hind land to the outside of each respective forelimb?
[QUOTE=dungrulla;7963354]
No, gaiting is not considered a “neurological fault” in shepherds. Some dogs-- most notably doberman pinscers-- pace as well. As a matter of fact any dog can amble and this is considered perfectly normal, but most dogs only do it when tired/it’s not considered a breed trait.
Dingo vom haus gero was also a showline dog with an absolutely awful roach back and awful movement from a working standard. He was not bred to work. He would never make it as an actual working dog, only ever got his SchH3 and then stopped working completely (the title is required for registration) and his gait is not designed for actual working. It’s to look pretty and is an awful lot like paso finos doing those tiny little useless baby steps. He’s also been dead since the late 70s/early 80s and is therefore not top of anything anymore.
An actual working line german shepherd has a small delay between when the first and second foot hit the ground, it’s a much more comfortable gait that conserves a large amount of energy.
You also probably just googled “german shepherd movement” and found this video since it’s the first result.[/QUOTE]
The dog did not pace, so, just so that you can argue with AKC instead of me, or perhaps so you might once actually know what you are talking about, here is the AKC standard, note section on gait, note it says they are a “trotting” breed.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/breed_standard.cfm
By the way, Sch H3 is the highest level for Schutzhund work, now known as IPO ratings, not sure why you thought that was some kind of disgrace for the dog, but he was not a roach backed dog and he does have the delay footfall, guess you just wanted to argue with me because you have developed a dislike to be corrected. Beowulf, I don’t know why the alternate footfalls, he did not look like he was in top fitness at the time of that video but it is probably due to one sidedness. Dingo was not roach backed. Here is a photo where he is not set up in the squat. In order to be licensed the dogs must trot for 12 miles and will be withdrawn for tiredness or lameness.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=39-dingo-vom-haus-gero
Also, no where is the shepherd working gait referred to as a running walk or pace which refers to same sided movements, usually only seen when they are doing the equivalent of a speed walk (when up to working speed, they trot) or when they are tired.
For what it is worth, the Vom Haus kennels bred for working and showing, as seen in this write of the kennel from 4 years ago. I don’t like what has happened to the shepherds of late but these guys were not the culprits and they still have the same lines.
Huh? My GSD trots and paces. He usually paces when I’m not moving fast enough to get him into a real trot or if he’s tired.
AFAIK, the “flying trot” is simply a function of the extreme angulation found in many of the American Show Line GSDs. Like hackney or Dutch harness horses, they have a leg-flinging movement.
[QUOTE=Sunsets;7963395]
AFAIK, the “flying trot” is simply a function of the extreme angulation found in many of the American Show Line GSDs. Like hackney or Dutch harness horses, they have a leg-flinging movement.[/QUOTE]
I agree. It’s not a different gait - it’s an example of a trot with extreme angulation. ETA: the length of the body and the angulation of the legs cause more suspension in the trot than other breeds - it’s the same as me riding my TB mare versus my APHA mare. The TB has a much longer moment of suspension than my paint mare because of the angulation and length of body.
This is from the AKC standard; there is more about gait but it’s long. http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/breed_standard.cfm
Gait: A German Shepherd Dog is a trotting dog, and its structure has been developed to meet the requirements of its work. General Impression - The gait is outreaching, elastic, seemingly without effort, smooth and rhythmic, covering the maximum amount of ground with the minimum number of steps. At a walk it covers a great deal of ground, with long stride of both hind legs and forelegs. At a trot the dog covers still more ground with even longer stride, and moves powerfully but easily, with coordination and balance so that the gait appears to be the steady motion of a well-lubricated machine. The feet travel close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push. In order to achieve ideal movement of this kind, there must be good muscular development and ligamentation.
[QUOTE=Calamber;7963392]
The dog did not pace, so, just so that you can argue with AKC instead of me, or perhaps so you might once actually know what you are talking about, here is the AKC standard, note section on gait, note it says they are a “trotting” breed.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/breed_standard.cfm
By the way, Sch H3 is the highest level for Schutzhund work, now known as IP ratings, not sure why you thought that was some kind of disgrace for the dog, but he was not a roach backed dog and he does have the delay footfall, guess you just wanted to argue with me because you have developed a dislike to be corrected. Beowulf, I don’t know why the alternate footfalls, he did not look like he was in top fitness at the time of that video but it is probably due to one sidedness. Dingo was not roach backed. Here is a photo where he is not set up in the squat. In order to be licensed the dogs must trot for 12 miles and will be withdrawn for tiredness or lameness.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=39-dingo-vom-haus-gero
Also, no where is the shepherd working gait referred to as a running walk or pace which refers to same sided movements, usually only seen when they are doing the equivalent of a speed walk (when up to working speed, they trot) or when they are tired.
For what it is worth, the Vom Haus kennels bred for working and showing, as seen in this write of the kennel from 4 years ago. I don’t like what has happened to the shepherds of late but these guys were not the culprits and they still have the same lines.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeders.htm?kid=30346[/QUOTE]
The Schutzhund title is required in Germany to be registered as a german shepherd. A third level title is required before anyone will even look at your stud dog for breeding purposes. It is the highest level in the world…for schutzhund. I’d like to see this dog do actual protection work, or even IPO or KPVN, which is significantly harder.
Every single kennel in Germany breeds for “working and showing” because they must. The requirements for the schutzhund titles for show dogs have been lax since the 70s when they started breeding dogs with roached backs, etc. The hallmark of a good working dog is a KPVN title and has been for a while.
You can hold up the AKC regulations all you want but no working dog meets them because they aren’t functional. They’re a lot like halter quarter horses.
But by all means keep arguing this with someone who works and shows a working GSD.
Schutzhund and IPO are the same exact thing. They changed the name a few years ago so I think the only one here who doesn’t know what their talking about is you. An IPO I is required for breeding, although I’m sure stud dogs with IPO IIIs are preferred.
Preference of the Dutch ring over French ring or mondio or PSA or IPO is entirely personal. Why Dutch why not mondio? Why care about sport work at all if you want a ‘working’ dog? Shouldn’t you only concern yourself with a police record if all these sport titles mean nothing to you?
Am I the only one smelling troll this morning?
I am working Schutzhund with my two puppies. Their dam’s sire and dam were both imported and Schutzhund/IPO titled (YES – it is the same!) – They were both fully registered and hip/elbow tested in Germany and bred. The female was IPO II and the male IPO I and earned his II and III over here - but they were also bred here. Yes, with hip/elbow testing and titling – possibly even BH - which is just an obedience title – they can be bred in Germany. Schutzhund/IPO III is the highest level and fairly difficult to achieve. I bred my bitch to the leading sire of GSDs in the world for my litter. Their showline (SV) GSDs also do enough IPO work to get titled and breed. Not the same here –
I have heard it called “gaiting” when speaking about the GSDs at a trot but it is a trot.
PennyG
[QUOTE=dungrulla;7963599]
You can hold up the AKC regulations all you want but no working dog meets them because they aren’t functional. They’re a lot like halter quarter horses.
But by all means keep arguing this with someone who works and shows a working GSD.[/QUOTE]
What are we even talking about anymore - are you still saying they are “gaited” like gaited horses?
Curious - in what venue do you show your GSD?
If you prefer German bred GSDs (not American, or AKC registered)…fine, we all have preferences. You started this thread about GSD being “gaited” and people disagreed. What’s your point?
[QUOTE=TKR;7963667]
I am working Schutzhund with my two puppies. Their dam’s sire and dam were both imported and Schutzhund/IPO titled (YES – it is the same!) – They were both fully registered and hip/elbow tested in Germany and bred. The female was IPO II and the male IPO I and earned his II and III over here - but they were also bred here. Yes, with hip/elbow testing and titling – possibly even BH - which is just an obedience title – they can be bred in Germany. Schutzhund/IPO III is the highest level and fairly difficult to achieve. I bred my bitch to the leading sire of GSDs in the world for my litter. Their showline (SV) GSDs also do enough IPO work to get titled and breed. Not the same here –
I have heard it called “gaiting” when speaking about the GSDs at a trot but it is a trot.
PennyG[/QUOTE]
I was wrong, schutzhund is IPO. They used to be run by two different organizations.
Point is the dog linked is a show dog and isn’t very good at working. No, I don’t think just a SchH3 is a good proof of working ability in a dog because most of those dogs are not actually any good at all at protection.
KNPV involves targeting, involves jumping over cars to get at the perp, and evaluates a lot more skill than a schutzhund trial. These dogs are generally actual real-world protection and police dogs. The trials are made to evaluate and mirror actual real-world situations, schutzhund trials are not.
Compare this to finding someone hiding in a blind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb4m_Npq-Gc
Read more here:
http://leerburg.com/schvsknpv.htm
As an excerpt:
“The protection work for Schutzhund has little to do with police service work. The schutzhund bite work is a very precise routine that dogs can be “programmed” to work through. Granted, it takes a certain level of temperament and drive to be able to perform the routine. This drive level is so low on dogs that pass the schutzhund exam that it almost eliminates the value of a title to a breeder like myself. Frankly through proper training dogs can easily be schutzhund titled but these same dogs can not come close to passing a selection test for police work, much less be trained to do the work.”
Call me troll all you want. Several people far better at this than me, including my trainer, have told me gaiting != trotting.
[QUOTE=TKR;7963667]
I have heard it called “gaiting” when speaking about the GSDs at a trot but it is a trot.
PennyG[/QUOTE]
That’s just what trotting around in a circle is called in the show ring. I’ve been corrected by show people for saying “trot” instead of “gait” but I respond that a trot is just one gait, and I’m happy using the word “trot”. (As opposed to “pace” or “gallop” - two “gaits” you don’t want in the show ring). 
I should also mention this:
“IPO is the International standard, and at one time had a different set of rules as determined by the governing body of FCI. Following rule changes in 2004, where the SV (via the VDH, all breed Kennel Club of Germany) began conforming to FCI rules for Schutzhund, the standards are virtually the same.”
I.e. the sports were NOT the same prior to 2004, and schutzhund rules were deliberately changed to come in line with IPO’s. The dog that was originally posted did not have an IPO title and the sports at the time were not the same thing.
[QUOTE=dungrulla;7963669]
Call me troll all you want. Several people far better at this than me, including my trainer, have told me gaiting != trotting.[/QUOTE]
That’s what all dog show (conformation) people call trotting.
There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. A schutzhund/IPO title is required by the SV in order to breed, not to register. A ScH III is not the required level of title for breeding in the SV. That would be a ScH I. Most often the males have a higher title, simply because they can breed and continue to compete and females need time off to breed and raise a litter. So it is very common to see a dam with a ScH I and the sire with a ScH III.
You can still breed without titles, and some people do. Those litters just won’t be recognized by the SV. Schutzhund/IPO is a sport title, not a working title. Dingo was a WGSL (West German Showline, not working lines). I have never heard he was a working dog. And, to make it even more confusing, “working lines” are not the same as “working dogs”. A working dog is a police dog, a guide dog, etc. A dog that works. Working lines are those bloodlines that are most often found in working GSDs, especially those lines found in dogs doing LE work. But a dog from working lines doesn’t equate to a dog that works.
Pacing is a fault in the GSD, regardless of venue. The “flying trot” is not a pace or an amble. That is just the term show people use to describe the look of the gaiting dog in the show ring. A flashy flying trot might be beloved of the audience and more likely to be put up by a judge, which is a shame. That high headed, extreme movement hides a lot of faults (not the least of which is a lack of balance).
Dingo came from well known and heavily used WGSL. You would be hard pressed to find a WGSL dog that doesn’t carry the same lines.
You can find a good, drivey dog in ALL the lines. Some lines will have a higher percentage than others, but that isn’t the same thing as not finding them at all in some lines. Not all working lines are spazzed out bite cases waiting to happen. Not all American Showlines are crippled. Not all WGSL are banana-backed freaks.
Sheilah
So no one knows the answer to why the GSD has that ‘irregular’ footfall? My late GSD did the same as Dingo, when he started to trot very quickly. One hind in, one hind out – if I watched my horse do this I’d be sobbing and calling the vet… Always thought it was normal for the GSD - dog experts, chime in?
[QUOTE=beowulf;7963757]
So no one knows the answer to why the GSD has that ‘irregular’ footfall? My late GSD did the same as Dingo, when he started to trot very quickly. One hind in, one hind out – if I watched my horse do this I’d be sobbing and calling the vet… Always thought it was normal for the GSD - dog experts, chime in?[/QUOTE]
I believe it’s normal for all dogs that overreach. This is what the GSD standard says about it; I was going to post it earlier in response to your post but forgot.
The hindquarters deliver, through the back, a powerful forward thrust which slightly lifts the whole animal and drives the body forward. Reaching far under, and passing the imprint left by the front foot, the hind foot takes hold of the ground; then hock, stifle and upper thigh come into play and sweep back, the stroke of the hind leg finishing with the foot still close to the ground in a smooth follow-through. The overreach of the hindquarter usually necessitates one hind foot passing outside and the other hind foot passing inside the track of the forefeet, and such action is not faulty unless the locomotion is crabwise with the dogs body sideways out of the normal straight line.
I thought all dogs naturally trot in shoulder out. Much like all horses do unless ridden straight. My old boss used to call that in a horse “trotting like a dog”.
I am NOT an expert. But I have spent more than 50 years living with the breed. The GSD is a trotting dog. They were “created” to be able to move as efficiently as possible over long distances, for long periods of time. Unlike Border Collies (for instance), who move between gaits as they work, the GSD was meant to move in a wearing pattern behind the flock and to maintain a boundary in the graze. Like an endurance horse who spends most of their time in a trot, so does the GSD as it works. My own personal take away from the history of the breed is that although it was meant to be a utilitarian worker with the courage to defend the herder and the flock if needed, it’s primary role was as a sheepdog moving huge herds. That was first and foremost.
I don’t know if the footfall was the natural pattern because it was indicative of the most efficient movement, or if the show ring bastardized it as they did the trot.
Sheilah
