did you know that cleveland bays

[QUOTE=goodhors;3487922]

Unfortunately, the people who enjoy owning the Bays, are usually more quiet and NOT VISIBLE. They go hacking in their backyards, local trails, may hunt him. Sometimes they compete at a local schooling activity. They have done competition before, own this CB or Partbred CB horse to have FUN with. It meets their needs, they don’t feel the need to prove how wonderful he is to others.[/QUOTE]

Kathi, which is why I wish the Performance Awards could be sponsored and would be free for everyone. Would sure be nice to know what ALL CB’s are doing and make it free for everyone, even if the prizes weren’t as expensive. I know we have to make money, but allowing everyone to compete and showing that there are a lot more CBs out there competing would sure let everyone know how versatile these animals are!

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3488219]
Mine is a half bred Cleveland but whilst he’s pretty typical in tempermant and looks, he (rightly so IMO) can’t be registered because he’s got a white blaze. He’s too big as well, though that wouldn’t necessarily exclude him.[/QUOTE]
Why can’t you register a 1/2 bred with white? And he’s a gelding too, correct? So he’s not going to pass that white on. Boy here in the states I’ve found people LOVE to have a little white in their 1/4 or 1/2 breds, though it’s hard to provide that for them.

[QUOTE=DancingAppy;3489376]
OMG, Thomas, you’re bad…

Took me a while but I get it now…

Wow, I feel dumb…

(you responded before I could post this)[/QUOTE]

:winkgrin::lol:

My bad!!! :lol:

[QUOTE=aspenlucas;3489408]
Kathi, which is why I wish the Performance Awards could be sponsored and would be free for everyone. Would sure be nice to know what ALL CB’s are doing and make it free for everyone, even if the prizes weren’t as expensive. I know we have to make money, but allowing everyone to compete and showing that there are a lot more CBs out there competing would sure let everyone know how versatile these animals are![/QUOTE]

I don’t think it would make any difference with a sponsor. These folks are not CB members, not going to join to be in the Performance awards because they are “only riding” not competing. They are having a really GOOD time riding their horses, which is truly the most important part of having them!! They buy these very nice CB horses as the reward to themselves for having previously put up with less nice animals and survived. These folks are quality riders, handlers, but may not be show-ring pretty. That one good CB or CB Partbred can do EVERYTHING they want or need from their animal. They happily use him/her until it ages out and needs replacing. They just don’t compete, don’t want the stress or care about the results.

Bug is out with daughter this year in 4-H, local circut, doing all the disciplines. Kind of blows your mind seeing him in Speed classes, but he ribbons most classes. He was a delegate from the County to State Show, got a ribbon in Hunter Hack. He has the next couple weekends to compete in the High School Equestrian Team competitions, again in several catagories. School puts a Team out to compete. This is what she wants to ride in, see her friends, so we go that way. Most folks without asking, think he is an old-fashioned QH with his head, muscular frame. Strong nose, but kindly eyes. Many do come to ask about him. Some guessers even get him right as to breed! None of that stuff is eligible for Performance Awards.

We in the CBHSNA have one of the most versitile coverage areas for Performance, yet still only get low entries each year. MUCH better entry numbers than when the CBHSNA started offering them though and more catagories to cover most any activities. Hard work in promoting Performance Awards is slowly gaining more participation. Melinda and Gabrielle have really tried hard with that area of recognizing the horses going out and performing. Great prizes too. Again, unpaid volunteers for years, doing their best for the CB animals.

Horse competition is something you have to work at, dedicate yourself to doing, weekend after weekend. Sorry, we burned out on that a long time ago. It was all I did from May to Sept. for about 7 years. Plus the midweek practice riding and conditioning time needed to attain winning form. However I wasn’t married then, no other family to be concerned on how I blew my money or time. I swear that truck had the original robot homing device, because I don’t remember how I got home a lot of times. No alcohol involved! Showing sometimes on Friday night and all day Sat and Sunday, I was whipped when coming home from wherever. Then you have to go to work on Monday!! With a family, that kind of living is not possible.

Kind of like dogs, no one horse breed is going to make everyone happy, or even the same breed in one family! That is why there are so many breeds, and we can choose among them. I can appreciate the CBs now, when I might not have as a younger person, less skilled rider. I ask a lot from them, show them how and they deliver. Not an instant result, but that is how you build good horses for later, harder demands.

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3486507
And then finally I just have to ask why are folks just keeping stallions as pasture ornaments? That seems a bit dumb. Here they’re out and about like any other horse.

One of the nicest ones I’ve ever personally known competed dressage in the olympics and was regularly hunted and hacked out.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly, Thomas. The other poster’s remark about the cost of keeping a stallion got me wondering why keeping a stallion should cost so much more than keeping a mare or gelding. Then I read your post–your remark about people keeping stallions as pasture ornaments.

Why can’t stallions be kept as mare and geldings are, worked, competed, etc., and then put to a mare when a breeding is requested. Someone sees your fantastic stallion out somewhere and thinks, Oh, I’d like to breed my mare to him.

I had a friend who had a TBx colt (not Cleveland Bay x) who wanted to use him for breeding but said he was more interested in being a stallion than in being a working horse.

But I should think a stallion given regular work could also be used for stud.

But I agree a horse that doesn’t meet the breed standard can’t be registered.

Been reading with great interest all these posts. We all agree that it takes time, money and with volunteers it is tough to get this breed going further forward. However I have been a CBHS and CBHSNA member for over ten years. Change is slow especially when many have very set opinions of the future of the Breed and what is defined as support. The Clevelands and the Irish introduced partbreds at the same time. You can see how the Irish Sport horse has progressed in the public eye and how the CB partbred has progressed. It all depends how the respective Society’s wish to focus their efforts. The Irish heavily promote the sport horse with a lot of respect given to the purebred (RID). While the Clevelands place a lot of money and support on the pure while virtually ignoring the partbred. The Great Yorkshire Show is one example. Purebred winners received cash awards while Partbred winners received a ribbon. Though ridden classes were available at the GYS, the CB division didn’t have one while the Irish division is huge. This was in Yorkshire the historic home of the CB.

For exports the Irish gives you a discount and benefits when you purchase, I heard their commercials on Radio Badminton. The Clevelands charge you an extra 100 or 200 pounds when exporting a CB. Nevertheless the breeding population in NA is the highest in numbers and quality than any time since 1890. If you want a purebred CB, there are many here that are very nice and affordable.

I understand the dilema about volunteers but the UK Society has 5 times the budget and 5 times horses compared to NA with a part time paid Secretary and a professional PR person. While the NA Society doesn’t have any paid staff but our Performance Award program appears to have 3 to 4 fold the participation. The Mid Atlantic region of all volunteers managed to assemble more CBs at shows at Warrenton, Upperville, and Howard Co than any show in the entire UK, and we didn’t have the Queen attend. OMG, if her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II came to the US to see CBs I know of several breeders who would haul across the Rockies and Sierras to show off their CBs to her.

I agree with TNLilly the partbred in the UK are not well promoted. It is a shame because they are the ambassadors for the purebred. I also agree the NA Society should start our own partbred/sport horse registry as has been done in Australasia.

GMG
Texas USA

I found this–

“The Cleveland Bay is unique in its carefully maintained purity. While the warmbloods of France, Germany, Sweden, Poland, Hungary and other European countries have produced a number of good individuals, their pedigrees are riddled with recent Thoroughbred, Arabian and other outcrosses. Registration in their studbooks carries with it no guarantee or even probability that their offspring will inherit their excellence with any consistency.” –

here–

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/clevelandbay/Cb.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/clevelandbay/index.htm&h=561&w=291&sz=87&hl=en&start=13&usg=__wr9r8iOvRFX5rTucc6DILnJPykI=&tbnid=4zxlm2E6GUX_2M:&tbnh=133&tbnw=69&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcleveland%2Bbay%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

The Cleveland Bay is NOT a Warmblood. It is a BREED registry, which is not allowing outcrossing as the Warmbloods do, getting back into the Purebred book. To bring in outside blood, the CB cross and all its produce, need to be crossed back with CB several times, inspected, before getting into the Purebred book. Used to be 8 crosses back into CB, not sure of present requirements. There has to be a major time commitment to produce and breed those animals long enough to get back to the CB book with new (small amount) blood.

Warmblood Registry of various countries has changed their standards to produce more modern horses numerous times. Horses who were the top producers were sold because they no longer want their foals or style produce being presented. Americans thought they made a real coup buying a “name” horse, but were actually taking unwanted horses for big prices, to use here in the US. The whole LOOK of that Registry changed what produce looked like within 7 years. Usually always to a lighter bodied horse. Prettier faces sell better. Look back in the winners records, you can see actual changes happening. Not so with the Heritage breeds.

I would list the Cleveland Bays as a Heritage Breed, as are Lippizaners, Fresians, Andalusians, or even TBs which only accept horses from registered parents of that breed. No outcrossing is both their strong and weak points. These breeds are very special, unique in their qualities and standards of body. Then other breeds can use these qualities to improve, change or go back to for basics if needed. These set breeds are pretty unchanged for at least a hundred years, look like they did back then, when the WB breeding was started. TBs would be the exception, lighter bodied with increased speed, by breeding horses that are successful in racing. A most specialized breed.

Without these Heritage basics available, everything being homegenized or specialized for skills, there are no choices to change breeding in a new direction. I find it very hard to tell one WB horse from another by looking at him. Nothing unique, as the Sporthorses line up to diferentiante in my choices for use. Kind of like Western horses, they meet a style, but you SHOULD be able to pick a breed of horse from the group by looking at him. They say once bone size is lost, it is really gone. I sure don’t want to have draft blood to get needed bone size on my larger horse. Drafts are not the direction I want to go, they have their own problems. Clevelands have bone size, do pass it on. Temperment is often questionable in some WBs, not suitable for lesser skilled riders, not talented enough for the best riders. Might be a time to bring in a Heritage breed for crossing, get a quieter animal for lower level skills.

This is right along the lines with diversity in plants and food. Most corn is related, all across the USA. If some disease comes along, it could wipe out all production of corn, because they have no natural immunity. Tomatoes are similar in being closely related.

You need to keep a wide and varied breeding base for horses. Look at all the new and nasty diseases in QH, breeding the special lines to win. Line breeding and Inbreeding until the horse may be his own cousin AND uncle. Bad genes get prominent with no new ones being introduced into the mix. TBs with their narrow winning-race lines producing the most foals. You breed the winners of races, not the losers. Some families are just better, get bred more. Hunter TB families don’t make money in breeding or selling, why keep the old families going if you don’t get mares in to use him? Everyone wants to breed to the “popular lines” so they can have “a winner” too! Buyers only recognize the well-known horses who win or advertise a lot, in pedigrees. Fewer and fewer choices in lines to pick from, any breed or Registry of WB horses.

Our Bugatti horse daughter rides for all her activities, is by the horse pictured, Harrington Spartan. A real nice producing stallion.

Goodhors,

excellent posting and I endorse and agree with most everything you said.

However we do have some differences in language.

[QUOTE=goodhors;3510785]
The Cleveland Bay is NOT a Warmblood. [/QUOTE] I don’t know if the quote in the earlier posting was from a European source, but you have to appreciate that in the UK and Europe we use the term warmblood quite differently to how you do.

We have Cold blood horses: the heavy work horses: e.g. shires, percherons, clydesdales, suffolk punches etc etc

Hot Bloods: Thoroughbreds and arabs and anglo-arabs

Warmbloods: Anything that isn’t a cold blood or hot blood so is mixed.

The term warmblood was always used that way until the development of specific breeds that decided to use “warmblood” in their title as a suffix. e.g. Dutch Warmblood.

Likewise we don’t use the term draft horse as you do either. Here a draft horse is any horse that is in harness and it could be a light harness horse OR a heavy harness horse.

We refer to the USA Draft category as:

Heavy horses, cold bloods or agricultural horses

Thanks Thomas.

I got the Heritage Breeds catagory from both European (continental) and American folks who do breed the Warmblood Registry horses. They are unhappy with the free use of the word warmblood to cover draft crosses or TB crossed with most anything, that are NOT Registry horses. They are the ones pushing the Sporthorse term, to get away from warmblood word confusion.

I tend to think of the draft crosses, warmblood (small W) as a cover-all term for any mixture of breeding. Should have a bit of bone, but there is no defined type to it. Around here, folks think if you have a “warmblood” it should add to the horse’s value or appeal. Many people have no clue on the differences in low price warmblood mixes and Warmblood Registry horses that command the big dollar values. Maybe it is the brand on the animal!!

And if you line up the small w and large WB horses, they don’t look much alike or always move the same. They can all fit into the Sporthorse category, which is a body type, not a breed or registry. Used for activities that are related in styles, need similar physical capabilities. Western or Stock horse is a body type, way of going, for uses animals are mostly put to. Not always similar breeds, but many common attributes. In any body TYPE category, you will have superior and less capable animals for doing their work.

Those WB (with capital letters) Registry folks, do NOT allow Heritage breed crosses to go into their books without a specific purpose. Heritage breeds or crosses have not been used in the WB Registry breedings for quite a few years. At this time they don’t need those attributes Heritage breeds are known for.

We are still separated by these same common words and their meanings. Amazing how far opposite they can get.

See? That’s what I was always, always, ALWAYS taught. And believe me I’m as American as they come.

If the krauts want to get their knickers in a twist about it who cares really? It’s still correct! :lol:

coming late to the party as always…

I worked with a lovely commercial carriage driving company locally that had a pair of full CB siblings, Jack and Jill. (Yeah…) Also a whole slew of well bred pulling percherons. Anyway, Jill was a riding horse (supposedly) and Jack was THE master driving horse, I swear that horse knew more about the whole thing than I could ever learn, and tolerated my mistakes and learning with such pure MAJESTY I will never forget him. Sound and sturdy and still going strong, he pulled me in my wedding 3 years ago and I still drive past the farm and look for him.
I might even have a pic here somewhere… I will update from home when I have it handy. B/W with white carriage and us in rennaissance garb and Jack looking all … horsey. It was january anyway…

I like the term “heritage breed”. Goodhors you are correct that the WB will not allow a CB purebred back into their books. I once asked a large WB organization if a registered purebred mare if inspected by them would be allowed in their main mare book. They said no. If lucky, a purebred mare would be placed in their lowest mare book. I wrote that CBs are in their heritage, and the response was a rather terse in so many words…we don’t want your type any longer…

GMG
Texas USA

btw, there is a nice discussion of rare breeds including CBs in the Off Course section from the Equus Survival trust Festivale at the KHP last week.

Breeding CB’s

Wow I dont think this could be further from the truth! I worked for Marilyn Webster at Idle Hour Stud, which if you know Clevies, you know Idle Hour. All of the stallions there past on their traits to the T. You could easily point out the Rambler, Richard, Nightflight or Yorkee babies. Even more so, you could spot the pure Clevie foals from the Clevie X’s from their mentality. I love the CB’s for breeding becuase the sires DO pass on so many of their traits! I wish I could post pictures on here, I have a great pic of my favorite Cleavland cross and stallion from Idle Hour :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Wellspotted;3510319]
I found this–

“The Cleveland Bay is unique in its carefully maintained purity. While the warmbloods of France, Germany, Sweden, Poland, Hungary and other European countries have produced a number of good individuals, their pedigrees are riddled with recent Thoroughbred, Arabian and other outcrosses. Registration in their studbooks carries with it no guarantee or even probability that their offspring will inherit their excellence with any consistency.” –

here–

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/clevelandbay/Cb.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/clevelandbay/index.htm&h=561&w=291&sz=87&hl=en&start=13&usg=__wr9r8iOvRFX5rTucc6DILnJPykI=&tbnid=4zxlm2E6GUX_2M:&tbnh=133&tbnw=69&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcleveland%2Bbay%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den[/QUOTE]

To Pentihilisea – I have an imported purebred CB stallion prospect (Whitehouse Trooper x Knaresborough About Time), and also do commercial driving in and around Washington, DC (usually with pure drafts) – the cb is also coincidentally nicknamed “Jack.” Only a yearling though, so still a long way from any real work – but who knows – one day there might be a purebred CB stallion walking down the National Mall…

Stranger things have happened.

On a related note, I also have a yearling 3/4 CB colt (Penrhyn Bayswater x Idlehour Music, ex Ramblers Renown) who is showing as a Future Event Horse at Morven Park in October. He is a big, correct and nice-moving colt – will be interesting to see how he does against the other breeds. One of the reasons he is going is just so people can see what he is – they usually do ask about those ears!

Hopefully these will be two stallions that will get out and do SOMETHING! (Sorry Robert, the partbred is about 4 inches taller than the pure – don’t think they will make a pair!!)

Rambler’s babies

Rambler babies are such great souls, he really passed on his gentle nature to them all. Marilyn is VERY attached to the Rambler babies she currently has. She had one recently that had a pretty severe injury that anyone else might have just put down but she spent the money to have surgery done on her to save her as a broadmare bc she was Ram’s last filly.

[QUOTE=DevilsAdvocate;3514589]
Wow I dont think this could be further from the truth! I worked for Marilyn Webster at Idle Hour Stud, which if you know Clevies, you know Idle Hour. All of the stallions there past on their traits to the T. You could easily point out the Rambler, Richard, Nightflight or Yorkee babies. Even more so, you could spot the pure Clevie foals from the Clevie X’s from their mentality. I love the CB’s for breeding becuase the sires DO pass on so many of their traits! I wish I could post pictures on here, I have a great pic of my favorite Cleavland cross and stallion from Idle Hour :)[/QUOTE]

Wasn’t that quote saying CB’s DO pass on their traits UNLIKE other WB breeds? I think that that quote agreed with what you are saying above. You know to some point I agree. I can spot a Richard anywhere. Even oddly enough, I could pick out IH McHenry in the AEC photos, but more from his “Keelo” look on the TB side. But my William 2 year old has those Richard eyes. So I don’t know…I think there is a CB look that really melts your heart, but the Richards are easy to pick out. My three Yorkie babies have been VERY different in their looks!

yorkie babies

aww which York (or Ork as he is affectionately known) babies do you have? I would LOVE to have a TBX out of Yorkee. Richard always passes on his eyes and York his ears :slight_smile: I must have misread the original quote, I had thought they were saying otherwise. I stand corrected! :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=aspenlucas;3516421]
Wasn’t that quote saying CB’s DO pass on their traits UNLIKE other WB breeds? I think that that quote agreed with what you are saying above. You know to some point I agree. I can spot a Richard anywhere. Even oddly enough, I could pick out IH McHenry in the AEC photos, but more from his “Keelo” look on the TB side. But my William 2 year old has those Richard eyes. So I don’t know…I think there is a CB look that really melts your heart, but the Richards are easy to pick out. My three Yorkie babies have been VERY different in their looks![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=aspenlucas;3516421]
Wasn’t that quote saying CB’s DO pass on their traits UNLIKE other WB breeds?[/QUOTE] That is indeed what it said. :slight_smile:

I was beginning to think that I’d totally misunderstood or misread it and have now reread it 4 times and each and every time someone has totally misinterpreted it.

Just goes to show the propensity for totally getting things wrong when you read something. :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=DevilsAdvocate;3517935]
aww which York (or Ork as he is affectionately known) babies do you have? I would LOVE to have a TBX out of Yorkee. Richard always passes on his eyes and York his ears :slight_smile: I must have misread the original quote, I had thought they were saying otherwise. I stand corrected! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

I have a pure CB colt by Yorkie out a a pure mare Willow Arianna, VERY good sparks match. I sold a Tb cross filly out of Anawhim and have a yearling CB/TB colt out of my best mare I Wood. What nice foals! Maria