Difficult Maiden Mare/Pasture breeding

[schallj81]

Hello everyone!

This is a strange one. I’m wondering if anyone knows of farms where high quality horses are being pasture bred. My friend as a mare who she bought to be her next eventer and who is pretty much retired at the age of 6 now. She has been trying to breed her without success spending tons of money on stud fees and vet bills to no avail. She is beyond exasperated and is just about ready to throw her out in the pasture. We joked about throwing her out with this mustang stallion on another farm and it occurred to me that there are farms in Europe breeding high quality jumpers and connemaras for example. who actually DO still pasture breed.

I know if it does happen its gonna be rare because of risk to the stallions but does ANYONE know of farms that are doing this to create high quality foals? Preferably on the east coast. The mare is SUPER HIGH quality. and there is nothing anatomically wrong with her. I think she is just being a difficult maiden and needs to get started. My friend at this point would be game for a strange mixed breed, if she would just take!

Any help is appreciated.

[EventerAJ]

Don’t know about pasture breeding-- as a stallion & mare owner, I see too much risk there all around for an injured horse (esp maiden). In your situation, I’d try live cover, perhaps with a lot of extra teasing if possible. Teasing naturally releases oxytocin, which helps clear excess uterine fluid.

There are several TB stallions available for sport who will breed live cover. While there should be no difference in preg rate AI vs LC, many anecdotal stories suggest LC can work better for some difficult mares.

[Hawkridge]

So does your friend plan to keep the resulting foal from some strange mixed breed? Why not have her try an embryo transfer or something like that? Or, like someone else said, live cover?

[schallj81]

Hi all.

Yes she does plan to keep the foal. She will event her, or do dressage, or jumpers, whatever. Eventing is equal opportunity

She has spend a lot of money already. The mare, while it appears nothing is wrong with her reproductively, make never take, so we were knocking around the idea of pasture breeding as a possibility, rather than send any more $$$$ this year. Obviously if a mare gets pregnant pasture breeding there is a stud fee involved but still.

Money is in no way unlimited here. We are talking about a ridiculously well bred mare that is tragically retired at age 6. Now it seems she may be unable to breed as well…

We are considering nature may do better and for less money. Perhaps no one pasture breeds here in the states but I was just enquiring since people do pasture breed herds of high quality horses in Ireland.

[Simkie]

Since location is important, perhaps you’d like to include yours? There are certainly some really nice TB stallions around who do live cover, but no real point in recommending one in Florida, say, if you’re in Oregon.

There are also some interesting stallions that sometimes show up on FB that would probably do pasture breeding. They’re not the top of the line super exciting ones, but a lot of people have a fairly nice boy standing around in their backyard and might be willing to let him have a girlfriend for awhile. If you have a local to you horse FB group, perhaps post there? You never know what might pop out of the woodwork that would be more suitable than the mustang next door

[beowulf]

why breed a 6 y/o horse that is retired? a 6 y/o has barely had enough time undersaddle to predict whether or not it is a high quality/phenomenal athlete, and being retired at six is a major red flag for longevity… one assumes that means for soundness issues. unless it was some major freak paddock accident, chances are the likelihood for unsoundness would be propagated in the resulting offspring.

since the advent of AI, pasture breeding is very rare. used to be that mares were lightly started and the good ones went to the field - now we can afford to compete the high quality mares without them ever seeing the breeding shed via ET. it’s where the phrase “breed the best, ride the rest” came from, although I would argue now that you can have your cake and eat it too due to advances in reproductive technology.

not many farms will do pasture breeding anymore, because there is too much risk of the stallion and/or mare getting hurt. some pony breeders still do but IME a high quality horse is not going to be in a pasture breeding a band of mares… as is stallions already face a lot of risk mounting phantoms, mounting a mare that can kick is another story.

your friend’s best bet would be to try live cover. i can’t make any suggestions without knowing more about the mare.

[EventerAJ]

@schallj81

Hi all.

Yes she does plan to keep the foal. She will event her, or do dressage, or jumpers, whatever. Eventing is equal opportunity

She has spend a lot of money already. The mare, while it appears nothing is wrong with her reproductively, make never take, so we were knocking around the idea of pasture breeding as a possibility, rather than send any more $$$$ this year. Obviously if a mare gets pregnant pasture breeding there is a stud fee involved but still.

Money is in no way unlimited here. We are talking about a ridiculously well bred mare that is tragically retired at age 6. Now it seems she may be unable to breed as well…

We are considering nature may do better and for less money. Perhaps no one pasture breeds here in the states but I was just enquiring since people do pasture breed herds of high quality horses in Ireland.

If $$$$ is a big issue, consider if it’s worth breeding in the first place. Getting the mare pregnant can sometimes be the “cheapest” part of the foaling process…!

However, I do understand the frustration of spending lots of money and not getting the mare in foal. Just consider that live cover IS essentially “pasture breeding” but under human control to prevent an accident in case something goes wrong. During slow time of year, stallions who live cover can probably fit in multiple covers per cycle-- the old standard is to breed every other day until the mare goes out of heat, so you don’t miss ovulation (by those who save $$ by avoiding multiple vet ultrasounds). Under that scenario, you trailer the mare to the stallion and leave her there until she goes out of heat (or bring her back and forth if it’s near by).

However, with a difficult mare-- often, one with cervical issues who has difficulty clearing fluid-- I would AVOID multiple covers (and unlimited pasture breeding), so she has less overall fluid to clear. A tough mare will cost you vet visits, no matter what-- ultrasounds, flush, culture/cytology, etc…things that may need to be done no matter how the mare is inseminated.

[red_mares]

My trainer has bred several mares this way. He also turned his stallion out with his mares after they were bred. Other than opening eyes for some passing drivers, no horrors occurred. I think one of his mares was pasture bred this spring. At a minimum it was live cover. He found it cheaper to leave her at the barn with the stallion than to mess around with vets.

Another friend did it with his mare after spending a bloody fortune at Rood & Riddle trying to get an older mare in foal. Finally turned her out with a stallion & forgot about her. Next summer she surprised them with nice colt.

My mare was bred at an Amish farm. They do AI all the time. More than that, they talk to one another and share what works. The guys who I boarded with, AI horses in the spring, cattle in the summer and deer in the fall. They have much more experience than the local vets, even the good vet. They have ultra sound on site.

After a less than hopeful vet check (vet more or less said “It’s your money if want to breed her…”) she had a nice filly this spring.

[JB]

Embryo transfer won’t exactly work if the mare can’t get pregnant

Has the mare been bred to the same stallion each time, or different ones? If the latter, how many different ones?

How much experience does the vet have in repro work?

Fresh cooled, or frozen? If frozen, how experienced is the vet with that?

Does the mare develop breedable follicles, and is determined to have ovulated, with insemination at the right time, but still just not pregnancies?

Was a culture and cytology done before the breedings started?

I don’t have a problem breeding a 6yo mare retired due to, I assume, an injury, given the comments of high quality and well-bred. Many high quality well-bred mares never go under saddle, or at least not for longer than it takes to get their MPT done, so not having a performance careers isn’t, in and of itself, a problem.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I looked into live cover options in Virginia because I have a teenage mare I really wanted a foal from, she had some issues, had been open a few years, and it was a recommended way to increase the odds of success. I was also very open to breeding to a TB stallion. Having visited both Fun and Fancy Free (Warrenton, VA) and Friend or Foe (Crozet, VA), both stallions are very nice, both farms VERY experienced, VERY well established, and owned and operated by really great people… And I would be comfortable sending a mare to either, and following the old fashioned every other day protocol. They’re both correct hunter type stallions, who certainly could produce a nice athletic eventing prospect.

I ended up doing live cover with a different stallion elsewhere this year, and my mare is almost 80 days in foal… Caught on the first cycle. And in wonderful health, and I am eagerly anticipating the foal, as I do like the stallion and love my mare. BUT… I learned a lot in the process… some of it pretty astounding and unpleasant. Be careful, ask for references from mare owners who also used the stallion for live cover, and check the references. If they can’t or won’t provide references… why not?? Ask LOTS of questions about how the stallion owner/breeding manager handles the entire process. Document answers provided.

[schallj81]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. Yes, the mare is wonderfully bred, and with a wonderful temperament. It is so unfortunate she will not be progressing in her career. There is no reason to think she would not have held up. Obviously none of us want to create horses that will not have a useful place in this world and a good home.

Yes $$$$ is not unlimited, but my friend of course understands the breeding is only the first part of it. It is exactly at EventerAJ mentioned, the frustration of spending thousands with no results, and because she is maiden, the concern that maybe for some unknown reason, the mare won’t take, and she is just flushing more money away carrying on the same way.

The mare was being bred by one of the leading fertility vets in VA. They tried three times, two different stallions, first frozen, then lastly fresh. Regumate.

I will mention to my friend about live cover. And check out the farms Virginia Mom Horse mentioned. Appreciate the support, it would be great if my friend could turn lemons into lemonade with the mare, since it was tremendously disappointing to retire her so young.

[JB]

Well dang, I was hoping it was as “simple” as some of the right things never having been done

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Have all attempts been with the same vet? There can be significant variation vet to vet, and even if someone is top notch, perhaps they just don’t “get” this mare.

I personally have had very positive experiences with Alexis Thaiss and Chris Adams (both with Piedmont Equine). I have a good friend who swears by Ellen Stephens (Laurel Inc, Equine Reproduction).

These are NOVA names… Maybe someone else can provide names from different areas of the state.

[Dr_Doolittle]

I would highly recommend ERC in Amissville VA, they got my 13 year old maiden mare (with the usual issues) in foal, they are phenomenal and have a great record and reputation. They might also know of local quality sporthorse stallions who do live cover.

Best of luck, this must be very frustrating…

[schallj81]

The Mid Atlantic recommendations are great. The mare is in southwest VA and moving to Georgia next year.

[AKB]

Some of the Irish Draught stallions on the East Coast will do pasture breeding. One of my friends bought two lovely youngsters from a Virginia breeder who was pasture breeding. He has since moved to the U.K., but there may be others willing to do it after a careful introduction. I would think that live cover could work as well, as long as the stallion owner is meticulous about timing.

[wentworth]

I don’t have any first hand knowledge or any input on whether he’d be a good match for your friend’s mare, but I remember coming across a Hanoverian stallion named Razmataz that was pasture bred. I don’t know if they allow outside mares, but he lives out with a herd of broodmares and babies (it was noted on his website as a selling point for his gentle temperment). I don’t think he’s had a career, but is by Royal Prince and looks like a nice type. The farm is Indian Land Farm in NC. They have a website and a youtube channel with videos of him and his offspring - all look to be quality types and good movers. He might be worth looking into!

[MysticOakRanch]

Several years ago, I did ride-alongs with a repro vet, and one of his clients was a big name Standardbred breeder. And they did have one older stallion who pasture bred. They would give people this option with “hard to breed” mares - and had a pretty high success rate. I wouldn’t discount the option, but would make sure it is a stallion that has the experience - and a mare that has the temperament for it.

And I have dealt with mares who only took on live cover - I assume it is some kind of inflammatory response to semen extender? But it is something to think about if your friend really wants to breed this mare. Realistically, it may be less expensive to buy a foal and get what she really wants.

[IronwoodFarm]

@beowulf

…since the advent of AI, pasture breeding is very rare. used to be that mares were lightly started and the good ones went to the field - now we can afford to compete the high quality mares without them ever seeing the breeding shed via ET. it’s where the phrase “breed the best, ride the rest” came from, although I would argue now that you can have your cake and eat it too due to advances in reproductive technology.

Normally I agree with Beowulf, but on this point no. Pasture breeding is not all that rare. Sure some breeds like AI, but AI is expensive and my personal experience is that it often doesn’t work out. I am not a big fan of it, My stallion pasture breeds with great success. Most of the stallions in his breed will do pasture breeding, not AI. For me, AI just adds another complication to getting the semen into the mare.

And thank goodness for pasture breeding. I have a maiden mare who was bred AI, but appears to have reabsorbed. Fortunately she lives out with the stallion in the field and it would seem he took care of her a bit later.

Obviously it depends on the stallion and the set-up, but live cover whether in hand or in the pasture is far from dead.

[IronwoodFarm]

I had the vet out today to palpate. This mare is definitely pregnant and “very far along.” He does not think she slipped and was rebred because she had not been cooperating with the stallion all spring and summer. He just thinks she is late. So we are on Day 353 now…I am leaving on a cruise where internet and cell service are limited. So I am making plans and leaving instructions.

Ideally the mare will foal out without complications. The foal’s IgG will be good, the placenta will be expelled and I’ll avoid stressing my help.

I’ll keep everyone posted.