Dirty Stopper

[TBeventer11]

Hi everyone,

I’m hoping someone could give me some support or advice as this year has not been starting out the way I wanted to.

I have a mare I’ve owned for 7 years now. I originally purchased her to be a Modified Jr/Am jumper mare (1.15m) from a well-known grand prix rider. Long story short, I decided to switch to eventing and we’ve only gone up to Training. My mare is one of the dirtiest stoppers trainers have admitted they’ve ever seen. I will see a perfect distance and naturally have to ride defensively and she will literally sit on her butt and slide into the fence. It’s frightening on XC because she will lock on to fences and chicken out in the final stride.

Sometimes her refusals are a result of my mistakes which she is incredibly unforgiving about and will hold a grudge against me. Sometimes they are because she is being barn sour. They never involve her spooking at anything. I once read an article about an eventer who dealt with a mare who performed based on her cycles. When the mare wasn’t in heat she would perform her heart out but when she was she refused to go forward at all.

I took her to a A circuit jumper show this weekend in an attempt to sell her as a jumper mare. She always goes double clear in stadium. She ended up getting me eliminated in three classes. One rider fall, the other were refusals. I decided to take my friend’s horse to a horse trial last weekend and took home second and finished on my dressage score on a horse I never even got to school XC on.

I know there are a lot of factors and I could go on and on. My trainer and I are trying to figure out a plan. Has anyone known someone with a difficult mare like mine where they overcame it? Any training methods or exercises I can do? As of right now, I think I need to be very careful about the levels I’m entering her in. If I make a mistake I should drop down a level until she builds her confidence again. I don’t even know if it’s a confidence issue? Sometimes I feel she’s just being a brat. I really don’t want to have to go around cross country jumping fences one-handed with a whip and growling at her which is what I have to do sometimes. Then there’s times where she eats up the XC course and she’s so game. There’s been times where I’ve schooled 1.25m with no problems. Then I get random refusals that get me eliminated.

I once watched an awesome clinic with George Morris about him teaching his riders to master their whip by schooling over a spooky liverpool and his riders practiced taking their hand off the rein eiether as a threat or a spank of encouragement at the take off.

I’ve just been so depressed lately. People in the jumper world don’t want a horse that refuses. I don’t know whether to retire her (she’s 13) and use her as a trail horse before I invest anymore money into shows and save up for an OTTB. I don’t know whether to take a step back and compete her at easier levels until she’s more consistant in being honest and make the best out of our situation. I don’t know whether I should continue attempting to sell her as a show jumping mare.

[OverandOnward]

Horses don’t know what a “brat” is, so they don’t know how to be one. This horse is responding to the situation it perceives. It isn’t initiating anything - it’s reacting.

Your depressed feeling that it is pointless to keep pushing forward is right on, in my opinion. That’s your inner horseperson trying to get through to you, past the trainers and the show schedule. Saying STOP, stop pushing her and listen to your mare.

Your challenge is to understand “reacting to what”? If the riding is all there and your coaches/clinicians don’t think you are making enough mistakes to be the cause of all this, then my first guess would be pain.

Possibly something like back/sacroiliac, or tender feet, something that doesn’t show up all the time. Maybe ulcers that give her pangs at stressful moments. Possibly a saddle that isn’t right for her. Or a bit she’s afraid of. But I’d look more to her physically as some of that other stuff would probably have been spotted by a good trainer.

Time to take a step back, would be my thinking. Stop planning and pushing her to do better. Assume this is not a character issue on the part of the mare - assume she is reacting to something. Get a chiropractor and a vet to thoroughly look her over, inside and out, for problems. Stop everything until you have more answers. Start your analysis over from the beginning, and look the problems she’s having as if from her point of view, rather than the view of the humans who want more than she can give. If you’ve got video, go back and review and with an open mind for clues.

She “carries a grudge” because something was unpleasant and she expects to feel that unpleasantness again. She’s not “mad”, she’s reacting. It’s not necessarily you, though, it could be something inside her.

And if there is something else she likes to do that doesn’t aggravate whatever sets her off … a new career might be the easiest path.

Good luck to her and to you …

[skipollo]

I’d check for the usual–ulcers, back pain, foot/leg issues on landing (if the horse hurts when they land, they won’t want to take off), parasite load, diet. Since she’s a mare, has she ever had a repro exam done? Things like cystic ovaries or strong heat cycles can make otherwise good mares total nightmares to ride.

[Gryhrs]

I had a horse with a wicked stop in him. It totally shook my confidence. I agree with the advice to have her thoroughly vet checked. Obviously you want to give the mare every benefit of the doubt. I would also have your trainer or another professional ride her - giving them complete disclosure on her behavior - and see if she reacts the same way with them. You won’t want to hear the end of my story…I ended up retiring my horse after one to many stops. He is happy eating Kentucky grass and I am happy with a new horse who isn’t easy but doesn’t stop.

[Highflyer]

At some point you need to face that it just is not her thing. Maybe she’s in pain, maybe she’s scared, maybe she just doesn’t like to jump-- but if this has been going on for seven years, it is time to take a step back. Can she do a decent First Level dressage test and trail ride quietly? If so, there is a home out there for her. And this sport is meant to be fun-- there is a horse out there for you that will allow you to have fun.

[Julie_Worley]

I had a horse with a wicked stop. He was a hunter and would drop his shoulder and shut down at a perfect distance. He was everything wonderful except for the stop and I was very accurate. It didn’t matter. He was most apt to stop at walls, roll tops and aqueducts. But he would also stop at a flower box. He would jump des all day long so I sold him to a beginner. My advice is not to ride a dirty stopper. It will ruin your confidence and destroy your joy. My next horse gave it all back.

[Gryhrs]

I felt like a failure when I made the decision to retire my horse. But a trainer that I know and respect who has ridden to the 3 star level told me of a horse she had with a wicked stop - she said she found herself changing her very successful way of riding to accommodate this horse. In other words she became much more defensive - that was exactly my experience and it took awhile to overcome.

[NancyM]

It sounds to me like your horse may have a number of different sources of problems associated with jumping that are making her NOT want to participate, and you cant figure out why. Neither can your coach. If you are at the point of trying to beat the horse over jumps to get the job done, there is a problem. Because that is not beauty, that is not sport. If you and your coach cant solve her problem, she is not a jumping prospect. Which is fine, not everyone wants a jumper.

My response is the same as Over and Onwards. No need to repeat that.

To be a successful jumper, step number one is that the horse must enjoy it, and want to do it for you. She must be given responsibility to get the job done, and enjoy her job. The riders job is to keep balance, line, pace and rhythm, and let the horse do their job. That is the partnership that makes the whole thing enjoyable for both partners. If you don’t have that going with this horse, your problem is BASIC, probably either pain or fear based. Beating the horse wont solve this.

[Couture_TB]

When you bought her and she was a straight jumper, not doing eventing, was she a stopper then? Or did she jump around happily? Not every horse will make a good xc horse. Could you have possibly over faced her on the xc course and now she has become jump sour? Have you tried taking it back to very small jumps, x rails etc?

[jess_h]

Would she foxhunt? I had a mare who was brilliantly talented, but had a nasty stop and would either win or get eliminated, no telling on a given day. After many years of trying this and that, I sold her on, full disclosure, to a lady who turned her into a foxhunting machine. Missy Mare wasn’t a leader, but thought that following horses over jumps was about the best thing ever. Fwiw, once she was hunting, she also condescended to jump around at shows with the trainer’s daughter, doing the eq and jumpers. YMMV on that, though!

[jsydney5]

Sorry to hear that you’re experiencing this. You have gotten some great advice thus far, but most importantly I think you need to consider the most important variable in a successful partnership with your horse. And that key word is “partnership.” Your horse has to enjoy what they’re doing and if you have given her a lengthy opportunity to learn slowly, correctly and confidently…there should be no “dirty” in her stop. Maybe jumping isn’t what she enjoys. Not every horse does! A good honest stop, that you can anticipate coming (you can feel their little minds ticking in their heads you approach a fence) is totally different than a horse that intentionally ditches you at the last stride. Babies do this, young horses do this, unconfident horses do this, but not a horse you have had for 7 years. It doesn’t sound like she just started doing this recently, otherwise I would suggest getting a vet’s consultation on it. Again, sorry to hear you’re struggling with it. I just bought a big fancy horse for a steal who is a stopper…but I bought him to do dressage. Just some food for thought…

[slp2]

It wasn’t clear whether this horse has always had a dirty stop, or if it just started recently.

Assuming that she has always been reliable, and this behavior has just started—I would first look into physical reasons. Eyesight? Front feet (landing gear)? Also hocks. At 13, she could definitely be experiencing some arthritic problems, especially if she has been jumped a lot. Trickier to find–but stopping can also be caused by SI problems—and those can be on and off like you describe. If there is some inflammation / ligament injury in the SI area then it can be more painful during the heat cycles, so that may be a reason why it’s inconsistent. Or some mares do have painful heat cycles–again, something to check with a vet on.

If she has done this her entire career–then it might be that she does not really dig jumping and could be happy as a dressage horse.

[onthebit]

[QUOTE=TBeventer11;7492705]

I took her to a A circuit jumper show this weekend in an attempt to sell her as a jumper mare. She always goes double clear in stadium. She ended up getting me eliminated in three classes. One rider fall, the other were refusals. [/QUOTE]

I found it interesting that you said your mare always jumps double clear in stadium yet when you took her to a jumper show and were eliminated in all three classes. I’m not yet sure what the relevance of this is (possibly rider nerves? couldn’t blame you at all for being nervous on her at this point), but it definitely stood out to me.

[Hilary]

If you bought her as a jumper, and then changed her career and she is not confident out on XC but still went clean SJ until recently my guess is that she does not like XC and the problems you have with stopping have migrated over to show jumping.

I had a horse who was also a pretty dirty stopper on XC but loved sj. guess what, she is not an event horse any more!

I have no idea why she didn’t like the XC jumps, but she didn’t - she didn’t have any particular bogey fence, but she disliked being out in the open in general.

[akor]

Many thoughts, but first, I do empathize with the emotional roller coaster these things put us through…been there…done that…

1. I am one of those “mare people” - don’t intend to ever ride a gelding. That said, once a mare gets your number, it can be over for that pair. Sorry to be so blunt, but I’m old and that’s how I see the world. Has someone else ridden her that she doesn’t associate with you?

2. My retired mare loved stadium. Would jump anything. Spooky as all get out but jumped big, fast, and clear. Tried XC. Didn’t work. However, had NO affect on her stadium other than to be honest, the eventing courses were too boring for her and she got a little challenging due to that (I was only BN, had they been higher she would have been OK). However, pop over a jumper course and she was the same old same old.

2a. When I didn’t own her and she was 4 foot + jumper, someone leased her and she wouldn’t jump. That’s how I got to own her. Professional to lesees, no go. She was a bit of a one-person horse I guess…

3. That mare started stopping one spring soon after going back into work after the winter off, somewhat “dirty” you could call it if you didn’t know better, and after about 2 days of that, I had vet work, and she had very bad high ringbone.

Armchair diagnosis here, but either the mare just has your number or she hurts somewhere.

Added; I also wonder about the “forgiving” part…most all ammies need forgiving horses, but what is your fault? If it’s landing on her back or hitting her in the mouth, that could be it. She may have had enough…(not saying that is your fault…just that I know that can turn a great jumper into a stopper - catch rode more than one and didn’t have issue - but took some time for them to trust).

[CindyCRNA]

How are her dressage scores? Maybe that will be her forte.

[fooler]

Years ago a friend of mine bought a young QH cross horse for her new event horse. He was a rock star at the low level schooling shows and then at the recognized Novice level. He was going so we she prepared him for the move up to training. He was great at combined tests - dressage/SJ. Not so great at training XC, especially with the “solid” fences. He went from a novice start to a training big E horse.
She decided he was ok when he could see the ground behind the fence, not so much when he couldn’t. He would jump the “open” training XC fences, but not the “solid” ones.
She sold him with full disclosure and as far as I know he had a happy life taking care of folks at novice. Could be your mare is telling you she prefers the jumper ring and BN/N level eventing

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Remember there is a difference between jumpers and eventing.

Most training level horses can do the 1.15 meter jumpers. But it doesn’t always go the other way. And while by specs 1.15m jumpers is more than prelim…it doesn’t work that way. Many Prelim horses are jumping Level 4 in the the jumpers. I know a lot of Prelim and Intermediate event horses that show in the level 5/6s for their schooling.

Xc is different. Just because a horse happily jumps the height in the ring doesn’t mean they will be happy xc (and vice versa).

Your mare is telling you LOUD and clear she has issues. She is either in pain somewhere…or not happy with this job. You need to listen. She is either really hurting…or her confidence and trust in you is shattered (or BOTH) and that is why she is now stopping at things she used to jump.

If she was my horse…I’d do a vet work up with a good sport vet. And if nothing is obvious…I’d stop jumping for a bit. Give her a vacation. Then bring her back slowly and just get her happy in jumping stadium or doing dressage. If you want to event…then I would either sell or lease her into a job she likes and get a horse who wants to be an event horse.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=NancyM;7492971]
It sounds to me like your horse may have a number of different sources of problems associated with jumping that are making her NOT want to participate, and you cant figure out why. Neither can your coach. If you are at the point of trying to beat the horse over jumps to get the job done, there is a problem. Because that is not beauty, that is not sport. [/QUOTE]

Wonderfully said.

These great animals will give the world, willingly - if asked correctly, and if nothing is getting in the way.

It sounds as if you are a decent rider (maybe more than decent) and have been successful on other horses. You are getting a lot of professional help - coach, clinicians - who can spot training and riding problems, but haven’t.

So, I’ll grant that it’s not you - it’s the mare. Something else is getting in the way. To me, that means a physical issue, because she’s had the training and experience she needs.

When people start pushing the envelope of training technique, it often would be better not to. Can’t train a horse not to hurt.

@onthebit;7493290

I found it interesting that you said your mare always jumps double clear in stadium yet when you took her to a jumper show and were eliminated in all three classes. I’m not yet sure what the relevance of this is (possibly rider nerves? couldn’t blame you at all for being nervous on her at this point), but it definitely stood out to me.

Same here on the “interesting”. There are red flags that say “physical”, not training and not riding.

Instead of analyzing the videos for training clues - analyze them for the physical clues. Look for what jump situations cause the most problems for the mare - and watch how she is using her body, where she is defensive. Spreads - downhill landings - awkward placement of her feet on take-off or landing - all are clues.

I ride a horse who is not the most difficult ride in the world, but he can make you think so. If the rider does well every moment of the ride, he’s the greatest ride in the world. If the rider isn’t fully on their game, he gives nothing. There is no amateur-coasting along, letting the packer make up for a little laxness here and there.

From your description, the difference between my ride and yours is that with my horse, unlike yours, knowledgeable people see clearly what the rider should have done and didn’t (even if it’s minor and a packer would keep going). In your case, the experts are saying you did ride correctly, but the mare stopped anyway. My horse is reacting to the rider - your mare has good riding and is reacting to something else.

She doesn’t sound like a head case to me because of what she does do well (most “head cases” are not, anyway). Sounds like the training is coming unraveled because she’s having problems with what she used to do well. That points to increasing pain and/or other physical problems.

Just imo.

[Foxtrot_s]

I always offer the same comments - either the horse is hurting, or she had lost confidence in her rider. Horses do not lie. The word ‘dirty stopper’ is bandied around when the underlying reasons have not been explored fully. Horses must enjoy their work to give of themselves.

I have had two horses that never knew what a stop was, until they started to get navicular.