Disappointed with eventing performance

[Fred]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;6485816]
Oh dear lord Bayhawk, if the Irish heard you classify an Irish horse as a European warmblood you better duck. Fast. Them is fighting words! LOL!

Fred, I was going to say that Wenga would be on a plane to Canada but I thought it was a step to far in my favortisim of the big horse!

Terri[/QUOTE]

Terri, thank you. Never a step too far for me. Wouldn’t that be a dream come true for this old girl. :yes:

Bayhawk, once again you seem to have missed my point,and the point many of us are making.
I don’t care what registry the horse is listed with. That is just paperwork and stamps,(and $$ sent to your favourite registry) and ultimately meaningless.
What counts is the BLOOD (and I mean that both ways).
You can CALL them whatever you want, but unless they keep changing the rules, upper level event horses need to be Thoroughbreds and Mostly TBs.

As for my comment to you? I was being ironic. A literary device.
Also known as poking fun at you.

[shea_smom]

Go Fred!

[DownYonder]

@GingerJumper;6485509

Thoroughbreds can be great, warmbloods can be great, Irish horses can be great, the weird skinny thing on Craigslist with a bad ad can be great.

There is a difference between discussion with the purpose of improving and evaluating a situation, and discussion with the purpose of proving the superiority of one’s views. This difference appears to have been forgotten by some.

The wisest words yet on this thread.

[Graymaresrule]

@Equilibrium;6485816

Oh dear lord Bayhawk, if the Irish heard you classify an Irish horse as a European warmblood you better duck. Fast. Them is fighting words! LOL!

Well it would be entertaining :eek::lol::eek::lol::eek::lol::eek::lol:

[RacetrackReject]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6485553]
Tim, there were fences on the course that would not have been allowed at a 3* event. If that’s the case, it couldn’t have been a 3*.

Even in Olympic showjumping all the fences are not 1.6 meters tall. But just because there were only 3 1.6 meter fences (I believe) in the Team Showjumping round, the course is still considered a 1.6 meter course.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for repeating this again so maybe someone will read it this time.

Fred, great post!! Ginger too!

[vineyridge]

One of the reasons that the European WB books don’t accept Irish Horses in their breeding programs is that the Irish often simply did not/do not bother with their mares’ breeding. And if the mare is the be-all and end-all, having “unknown” in the pedigree in the first and second generations (as one regularly sees with even the best Irish and British horses) would send the WB books screaming in the other direction. Even though it has been said that some countries imported huge numbers of Irish mares a few decades ago and incorporated them into their breeding programs under changed names. IIRC, it was supposed to have been the Dutch and Swedes who did this.

[zelensky]

Pondering this debate a while ago, I had a reflection/thought/comment, for what its worth … As Terri says, “traditional” Irish breeding is ID over TB, producing an offspring that is registered and known as an Irish Sport Horse.

Going back a few decades, all the main European studbooks started from the base of draught horses, as did the IHR. The Irish distinguished the pure-bred IDs from the ISHs. The intriguing thought that occurred to me was - what if the Holsteiner Verband et al had followed the same system? Then we would have pure-bred Holsteiners (with a generational cut-off, I guess), who, like the ID, would be a heavier type of horse, and Holstein Sport Horses, acknowledging those with a more recent injection of TB or AA blood. Hmmm.

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6486182]
One of the reasons that the European WB books don’t accept Irish Horses in their breeding programs is that the Irish often simply did not/do not bother with their mares’ breeding. And if the mare is the be-all and end-all, having “unknown” in the pedigree in the first and second generations (as one regularly sees with even the best Irish and British horses) would send the WB books screaming in the other direction. Even though it has been said that some countries imported huge numbers of Irish mares a few decades ago and incorporated them into their breeding programs under changed names. IIRC, it was supposed to have been the Dutch and Swedes who did this.[/QUOTE]

That is becoming less and less common though Sophie’s dam Beeza is strictly speaking “unknown”. She is reputed to be 1/2 Conn 1/2 Trak. The irish inspectors were quite impressed with her, until that pesky 1/4 Trak was mentioned :eek::no:

ETA:It would probably be better for me if Beeza’s supposed breeding wasn’t so well known in ID circles.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6485481]
Bayhawk you really should shut up.

Aachen 2006, short format. Amy Tryon Bronze on her OTTB, Poggio II. Rolex 2012, WFP won on his OTTB, Parklane Hawk. Burghley 2011, WFP won on his OTTB, Parklane Hawk. Pau 2010, WFP 2nd on his pure TB Navigator. Was in the lead until the skies opened during his show jumping round. Hong Kong Olympics, Miner’s Frolic, individual Bronze, team gold London Olympics. Paul Tapner won Badminton 2010 with his TB Inonothing.

Jonathan Paget on the OTTB Clifton Promise, Bronze at WEG and team Bronze at this Olympics. Excellent dressage score and double clear XC.

Heck, even Ingrid Klimke rode a pure TB at Athens.

There are more, but I’m too tired to look them up.

So I heard back from the person who just talked to Sue Benson as a friend and not a journalist. According him, she says that Olympic courses have to be designed with easier (but much slower) alternatives for the “lesser” nations. There were 4* fences on the course, especially where width was concerned. The terrain made the course very challenging, as it should be for eventing, and (this is from the published specifications) the time and speed and number of obstacles were set at four star* difficulty. If the course had been produced for a 3*, it would be an very difficult one, thanks to the terrain and number of jumping efforts.

There were fences on the course that would not have been allowed at a 3*

4* horses often went very well, unlike many of the 3* horses.

I gather from this that she thinks the course, which really was excellent and separated the good 4* horses from the rest of the world, was not exactly a “true” 4* course as we think about Badminton, Burghley, Rolex, WEG, Luhmuhlen, Pau, and Adelaide, but was instead a mixture of 4* and 3* for the direct routes, and mostly 3* for the slow ones.

However, most of the horses went for the fast routes, and many, many of them crashed and burned. It was definitely a course for 4* horses, as the results showed.

The biggest group of successful 4* and International horses are now and always have been very high percentage TB crossbreds, in every eventing country; but the next largest group is pure TB. The classic WB with TB many generations back hasn’t made inroads at the top yet and is unlikely to do so unless the FEI changes things to “cheapen” XC and endurance more than it already has.[/QUOTE]

Viney said the Olympic event was a 4* . It has been pointed out to you that it is in fact titled as a 3* but the course is actually closer to a 5*. You were wrong. YOU need to shut up.

It has also been pointed out to you that the TB’s no longer win the Olympics. Haven’t won in at least 16 years. Pissed you off. The fact are the facts.

I’m done having this juvenile debate with you.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;6485816]
Oh dear lord Bayhawk, if the Irish heard you classify an Irish horse as a European warmblood you better duck. Fast. Them is fighting words! LOL!

Fred, I was going to say that Wenga would be on a plane to Canada but I thought it was a step to far in my favortisim of the big horse!

Terri[/QUOTE]

Terri , I don’t care how they would react. The fact is , the horse is a warmblood…period.

[Fred]

Awww.
Bayhawk has been proven wrong and now he is taking his toys and going home.

For most of us the discussion has been ‘spirited’ but civil.
I really think that there is no need for nastiness, and the kind of insulting and disrespectful comments made by Bayhawk in particular to viney, who is a valued,longtime member who has added so much to this bb.

[grayarabpony]

I think I’ll print out the last 2 pages of this thread and frame them. :lol:

Bayhawk your obituary of the TB in sport and in breeding is very premature. Maybe someday your view of the TB in sport and breeding as obsolete will be relevant but it’s certainly not now. Warmbloods in general even now still lack many qualities that the TB has to offer.

For chris’ sake the reigning Olympic champion was sired by a TB.

[Equilibrium]

Sire and damsire of Sam are TB.

Bayhawk, maybe you consider them all warmbloods but people on this Island most definitely do not. In actuality they are nothing like the “Continental’s”. And this small little country is proud of that.

Really not so sure why so nasty. It was lighthearted.

Terri

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Fred;6486341]
Awww.
Bayhawk has been proven wrong and now he is taking his toys and going home.

For most of us the discussion has been ‘spirited’ but civil.
I really think that there is no need for nastiness, and the kind of insulting and disrespectful comments made by Bayhawk in particular to viney, who is a valued,longtime member who has added so much to this bb.[/QUOTE]

And exactly how was I proven wrong and what was I wrong about ?

Viney was wrong about her event specs and a TB hasn’t won an Olympics in at least 16 years. The ISH is indeed a warmblood and so what was there to be wrong about ?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;6486535]
Sire and damsire of Sam are TB.

Bayhawk, maybe you consider them all warmbloods but people on this Island most definitely do not. In actuality they are nothing like the “Continental’s”. And this small little country is proud of that.

Really not so sure why so nasty. It was lighthearted.

Terri[/QUOTE]

not being nasty Terri , just pointing out the facts. A warmblood is the mixing of hot and cold blood. The horses on your island are certainly that which indeed makes them a warmblood. If the Irish want to play semsntics , good on them.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Bayhawk;6486295

Viney said the Olympic event was a 4* . It has been pointed out to you that it is in fact titled as a 3* but the course is actually closer to a 5*.

There is no such thing as a 5* in eventing. It is titled as a 4*…with 3* options.

And I think this topic isn’t worth it any long. The TB IS still critically important to breeding in eventing. You will not see a winner at the top of the sport for the past 20 years who doesn’t have at least one parent who is ALL TB or has a substantial amount of TB blood up close.

What ever you want to call them…most of us don’t care. We know that the traits of TBs are important to our spot. Those of us…unlike you…who DO bred for event horses understand this and breed for this. I want my babies to look more like and certainly gallop like…TBs…not WBs.

I will always have at least one TB mare in my herd as it is far easier in this country to find a top quality TB mare than an affordable top quality TB stallion. In Europe/UK…there are more TB sport stallions available…and unfortnuately, they are harder to get to use on our mares here.

[Louise]

@Bayhawk;6486543

not being nasty Terri , just pointing out the facts. A warmblood is the mixing of hot and cold blood. The horses on your island are certainly that which indeed makes them a warmblood. If the Irish want to play semsntics , good on them.

Oh, so by your definition, an Appendix Quarterhorse, or a Morab are warmbloods? Well, that puts the Holsteiners in some pretty good company.

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6486543]
not being nasty Terri , just pointing out the facts. A warmblood is the mixing of hot and cold blood. The horses on your island are certainly that which indeed makes them a warmblood. If the Irish want to play semsntics , good on them.[/QUOTE]

And just how often have we had the discussion “What is a Warmblood?” on this forum?

But just like the RID’s or ID’s (depending on country) are not called drafts the Irish Draught breeders consider them t0 be quite distinct from Continental WB’s, and in their niche superior

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6486564]
There is no such thing as a 5* in eventing. It is titled as a 4*…with 3* options.

And I think this topic isn’t worth it any long. The TB IS still critically important to breeding in eventing. You will not see a winner at the top of the sport for the past 20 years who doesn’t have at least one parent who is ALL TB or has a substantial amount of TB blood up close.

What ever you want to call them…most of us don’t care. We know that the traits of TBs are important to our spot. Those of us…unlike you…who DO bred for event horses understand this and breed for this. I want my babies to look more like and certainly gallop like…TBs…not WBs.

I will always have at least one TB mare in my herd as it is far easier in this country to find a top quality TB mare than an affordable top quality TB stallion. In Europe/UK…there are more TB sport stallions available…and unfortnuately, they are harder to get to use on our mares here.[/QUOTE]

You are claiming TB blood. If I were to claim the Holsteiner blood , i would be taking credit for every horse on Britains gold medal jumping squad. I am referencing the placement of 100% TB horses at the top of the sport. They are like finding a needle in a haystack.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6486564]
There is no such thing as a 5* in eventing. It is titled as a 4*…with 3* options.

And I think this topic isn’t worth it any long. The TB IS still critically important to breeding in eventing. You will not see a winner at the top of the sport for the past 20 years who doesn’t have at least one parent who is ALL TB or has a substantial amount of TB blood up close.

What ever you want to call them…most of us don’t care. We know that the traits of TBs are important to our spot. Those of us…unlike you…who DO bred for event horses understand this and breed for this. I want my babies to look more like and certainly gallop like…TBs…not WBs.

I will always have at least one TB mare in my herd as it is far easier in this country to find a top quality TB mare than an affordable top quality TB stallion. In Europe/UK…there are more TB sport stallions available…and unfortnuately, they are harder to get to use on our mares here.[/QUOTE]

They said the course was like a 5*…read the words from the course designer. This Olympic Games was a 3*…once again , read.