[QUOTE=RyTimMick;6484652]
The Olympic course was longer, and that is why it favored TB’s.
Tim[/QUOTE]
You are wrong. The long format no longer exists and the Olympic course barely met the length requirements for a 4* SHORT course (which is the only thing that exists anymoer). You are speaking to eventers, we know the rules.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;6484801]
We’ve been down this road before, but that is actually not true. The king of eventing, both long format and even since the switch to short format, has been the ISH and BSH. Go back and look at Badminton, Burghley, Olympic and World Championship results over the last 50 or more years and you will see this. American riders were buying and importing Irish bred horses as far back as the 50’s and 60’s, and by the 90’s the numbers imported had increased exponentially, just look at all the “Lion” horses Bruce Davidson rode and the litany of top ISHs the O’Connors rode from the late 80’s on. That was all long format.[/QUOTE]
And what are Irish horses? TB crosses? It’s not like pure ISDs are running around 4*s in great numbers.
[QUOTE=RacetrackReject;6484988]
And what are Irish horses? TB crosses? It’s not like pure ISDs are running around 4*s in great numbers.[/QUOTE]
They are generally 1/2 to 1/4 Irish Draught and the rest TB.
Lenamore is 1/2 ID Mr Medicott (and Flexible) are about 1/4 ID
ETA:Lenamore is a Sea Crest daughter. Sea Crest sired Cruising, sire of Flexible and Mr Medicott
Bah - Humbug! Everybody is talking smack again about this same subject. Just to qualify, my heart will ALWAYS belong to the Thoroughbreds and they are what I want to see in my fields and feed. Regardless of what anyone has said on here, the warmblood or Irish horse or whatever couldn’t do the x-country at the higher levels without a hearty dose of Thoroughbred. And, I don’t care what you call the horse, it is STILL a Thoroughbred cross regardless of whether it came through the bottom or top (out of the attic or cellar door!). There are still many of the top riders who have pure Thoroughbreds, often OTTB’s, going at the highest levels and winning – wasn’t Rolex won by a Thoroughbred this year? I don’t follow eventing to any degree, so I don’t have figures or percentages or any of the other stuff that everyone is spewing to prove a point. I don’t really care about proving a point, because it doesn’t matter. At the end of the day, we all think we are right or have a point. Maybe we do. The Thoroughbred is not going away and will always be competitive in eventing and the other sport venues. You can try whatever new, hot style is out there and get the best designer bloodlines, but they will still be knocking. When the dust settles we’ll all be feeding and riding and believing in what we love. I don’t think the Thoroughbred really needs defending because they are still there and will continue to be. Now, on to football season and ALABAMA FOOTBALL – they are definitely the THOROUGHBREDS with the heart, pedigree and coach to prove it – ROLLLL TIDE and pass the wine with the crimson and white shaker to this short but very vocal fan!
PennyG
Speaking of the course, one of my internet friends who is a Big Name in eventing has agreed to ask Sue Benson about it directly.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;6485222]
Speaking of the course, one of my internet friends who is a Big Name in eventing has agreed to ask Sue Benson about it directly.[/QUOTE]
Sue Benson has already been asked about it directly in the interview I posted. Lucinda Green agreed with her.
I caught you speaking of something you knew nothing about Viney. Get over it , move on and learn something.
[QUOTE=TKR;6485179]
Bah - Humbug! Everybody is talking smack again about this same subject. Just to qualify, my heart will ALWAYS belong to the Thoroughbreds and they are what I want to see in my fields and feed. Regardless of what anyone has said on here, the warmblood or Irish horse or whatever couldn’t do the x-country at the higher levels without a hearty dose of Thoroughbred. And, I don’t care what you call the horse, it is STILL a Thoroughbred cross regardless of whether it came through the bottom or top (out of the attic or cellar door!). There are still many of the top riders who have pure Thoroughbreds, often OTTB’s, going at the highest levels and winning – wasn’t Rolex won by a Thoroughbred this year? I don’t follow eventing to any degree, so I don’t have figures or percentages or any of the other stuff that everyone is spewing to prove a point. I don’t really care about proving a point, because it doesn’t matter. At the end of the day, we all think we are right or have a point. Maybe we do. The Thoroughbred is not going away and will always be competitive in eventing and the other sport venues. You can try whatever new, hot style is out there and get the best designer bloodlines, but they will still be knocking. When the dust settles we’ll all be feeding and riding and believing in what we love. I don’t think the Thoroughbred really needs defending because they are still there and will continue to be.
PennyG[/QUOTE]
Agree one million percent.
:yes: :yes:
A top event horse by any other name is still a TB (or Almost Thoroughbred).
54% 75% 94% 100% - They are ALL Thoroughbred or Thoroughbred crosses.
So, Bayhawk,
If you want to breed eventers you are just going to have to introduce some good TB blood to your program. 
[QUOTE=Fred;6485326]
Agree one million percent.
:yes: :yes:
A top event horse by any other name is still a TB (or Almost Thoroughbred).
They are ALL Thoroughbred or Thoroughbred crosses.
So, Bayhawk,
If you want to breed eventers you are just going to have to introduce some good TB blood to your program. ;)[/QUOTE]
Fred ,
I have no ambition of trying to breed eventers. I breed modern Holsteiner horses with TB blood and what pops out…pops out.
My point is just what you stated above. The top event horses of the last 16 years have been crosses and not full TB’s.
Thanks DownYonder…I just need to proof read. I get typing, and I don’t pay attention. Oh, and spell check won’t correct that. 
Tim
Bayhawk you really should shut up.
Aachen 2006, short format. Amy Tryon Bronze on her OTTB, Poggio II. Rolex 2012, WFP won on his OTTB, Parklane Hawk. Burghley 2011, WFP won on his OTTB, Parklane Hawk. Pau 2010, WFP 2nd on his pure TB Navigator. Was in the lead until the skies opened during his show jumping round. Hong Kong Olympics, Miner’s Frolic, individual Bronze, team gold London Olympics. Paul Tapner won Badminton 2010 with his TB Inonothing.
Jonathan Paget on the OTTB Clifton Promise, Bronze at WEG and team Bronze at this Olympics. Excellent dressage score and double clear XC.
Heck, even Ingrid Klimke rode a pure TB at Athens.
There are more, but I’m too tired to look them up.
So I heard back from the person who just talked to Sue Benson as a friend and not a journalist. According him, she says that Olympic courses have to be designed with easier (but much slower) alternatives for the “lesser” nations. There were 4* fences on the course, especially where width was concerned. The terrain made the course very challenging, as it should be for eventing, and (this is from the published specifications) the time and speed and number of obstacles were set at four star* difficulty. If the course had been produced for a 3*, it would be an very difficult one, thanks to the terrain and number of jumping efforts.
There were fences on the course that would not have been allowed at a 3*
4* horses often went very well, unlike many of the 3* horses.
I gather from this that she thinks the course, which really was excellent and separated the good 4* horses from the rest of the world, was not exactly a “true” 4* course as we think about Badminton, Burghley, Rolex, WEG, Luhmuhlen, Pau, and Adelaide, but was instead a mixture of 4* and 3* for the direct routes, and mostly 3* for the slow ones.
However, most of the horses went for the fast routes, and many, many of them crashed and burned. It was definitely a course for 4* horses, as the results showed.
The biggest group of successful 4* and International horses are now and always have been very high percentage TB crossbreds, in every eventing country; but the next largest group is pure TB. The classic WB with TB many generations back hasn’t made inroads at the top yet and is unlikely to do so unless the FEI changes things to “cheapen” XC and endurance more than it already has.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6485370]
Fred ,
I have no ambition of trying to breed eventers. I breed modern Holsteiner horses with TB blood and what pops out…pops out.
My point is just what you stated above. The top event horses of the last 16 years have been crosses and not full TB’s.[/QUOTE]
And here I thought you were complaining event riders wouldn’t pay your prices for your youngsters
post 25
Thoroughbreds can be great, warmbloods can be great, Irish horses can be great, the weird skinny thing on Craigslist with a bad ad can be great.
There is a difference between discussion with the purpose of improving and evaluating a situation, and discussion with the purpose of proving the superiority of one’s views. This difference appears to have been forgotten by some.
Carry on.
It wasn’t a 4* it was a 3*. Historically the olympics is a 3* not a 4*. There are only 6 4*'s in the world. I know 3 of them by name (Burghley, Badminton, and Rolex) I know there is one in Australia too but I can’t remember the name.
This doesn’t matter, the Stadium portion was eased to compensate for the XC which is the only reason one would want to use a TB. The dressage and the stadium is always dominated by WBs.
Let me tell you why the TB’s are on their way out. The reason is WB breeders have more information about the horses they are breeding and know more about how to get to an end result. TB breeders don’t breed for sport. Where are the families of TB sport horse breeders creating champion horses? Show me the fields of TB sport horses bred for generations of sport. THEY DON"T EXIST.
However, they do exist for WB breeders for dressage and show jumping. If a breeders decided to start with a TB mare and create a strong demanding family of sport horses, they would be no less then 60 years behind the rest of the world. TB breeders don’t have the access, demand, knowledge, and frankly the Conformation to compete with WB breeders. The infrastructure just isn’t there.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;6485536]
It wasn’t a 4* it was a 3*. Historically the olympics is a 3* not a 4*. There are only 6 4*'s in the world. I know 3 of them by name (Burghley, Badminton, and Rolex) I know there is one in Australia too but I can’t remember the name.
This doesn’t matter, the Stadium portion was eased to compensate for the XC which is the only reason one would want to use a TB. The dressage and the stadium is always dominated by WBs.
Let me tell you why the TB’s are on their way out. The reason is WB breeders have more information about the horses they are breeding and know more about how to get to an end result. TB breeders don’t breed for sport. Where are the families of TB sport horse breeders creating champion horses? Show me the fields of TB sport horses bred for generations of sport. THEY DON"T EXIST.
However, they do exist for WB breeders for dressage and show jumping. If a breeders decided to start with a TB mare and create a strong demanding family of sport horses, they would be no less then 60 years behind the rest of the world. TB breeders don’t have the access, demand, knowledge, and frankly the Conformation to compete with WB breeders. The infrastructure just isn’t there.
Tim[/QUOTE]
Tim, there were fences on the course that would not have been allowed at a 3* event. If that’s the case, it couldn’t have been a 3*.
Even in Olympic showjumping all the fences are not 1.6 meters tall. But just because there were only 3 1.6 meter fences (I believe) in the Team Showjumping round, the course is still considered a 1.6 meter course.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6485370]
Fred ,
I have no ambition of trying to breed eventers. I breed modern Holsteiner horses with TB blood and what pops out…pops out.
My point is just what you stated above. The top event horses of the last 16 years have been crosses and not full TB’s.[/QUOTE]
And they’d be nothing without equal parts of whatever cross that they happen to be made of. So for any one breed registry to pound their chest and imply that another is lesser when they in fact also have cross bred horses is lunacy.
Your beautiful modern lovely purpose bred Hoslsteiner mares would be heavy rugged cart horses delivering bread and milk without someones good notion and ambition to imbue them with blood whether it be TB or Anglo or French etc.
As a matter of fact Bay without a few TB’ sires I believe your stud book would in fact be dead in the water. Rantzau, Furioso, Ladykiller, Cottage Son, Marlon, Ramzes , Anblick .
Arguing the merits of TB blood when they are what helped push your registry into mainstream is absurd.
Using Olympic and only Olympic results to determine the best breeding for the top of the sport is simply stupid. You guys can’t even decide what classification of difficulty it is yet you think it makes sense to use it as a standard?..:rolleyes:
Anybody who has looked at the breeding of the top ten horses at all the 4* events in the last few years knows that an OTTB or TB has a much better chance making it as an upper level competitor than a Holstiener (or any other designer brand) that doesn’t have a TB parent much less no full TBs in the first couple generations. That isn’t wishful thinking that’s the facts.
It seems that for US breeders it is most important to breed horses that can wear whatever brand name they are loyal to and only after that are they interested in breeding the best quality horse. I don’t give two craps what designer brand you have stamped on your get. If it isn’t mostly TB (or Irish) it’s not an eventing prospect. Maybe eventers aren’t cheap–they are just smarter than you…
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6484116]
Doesn’t matter what you say Viney. You said WE don’t know what we are talking about ? You should look in the mirror. [/QUOTE]
Watching Bayhawk trying to lecture Viney about TBs and eventing is more entertaining than certain Olympic events. :eek:
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6484914]
They are warmbloods. They ARE European WARMBLOODS. Last time I checked , Ireland was a part of Europe.
You people are getting ridiculous. When was the last time a 100% TB won the Olympics ? I’m not going to look but it has obviously been at least SIXTEEN years ago.[/QUOTE]
Oh dear lord Bayhawk, if the Irish heard you classify an Irish horse as a European warmblood you better duck. Fast. Them is fighting words! LOL!
Fred, I was going to say that Wenga would be on a plane to Canada but I thought it was a step to far in my favortisim of the big horse!
Terri
Just to be clear we use the word “Traditional” here for Irish horses. Traditional meaning the tradition of crossing TB’s on top of RID mares and getting the half bred. Another cross of TB on that and you’ve got a 3/4 bred. It is the mixing of TB blood with the RID and pure RID. You put Cavalier Royal on top of an RID and that horse really wouldn’t be considered traditional or Irish by most.
We go round and round on what consitutes an Irish horse on my Irish board. The one thing you know for sure is you may have bred it in Ireland but it sure don’t make it Irish! Like, you find that out real quick. I wouldn’t dare call my horses Irish. I mean, that could get me kicked out of the country.
Terri
German team.
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/auffarth-sandra-1117783/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/686501?levels=9
http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Sandra+Auffarth/Opgun+Louvo/Olympics+Opening+Day/PXrR1ZkO8d2
Opgun Louvo.
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/thomsen-peter-1118094/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/424645?levels=9
Barny
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/schrade-dirk-1118078/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/445342?levels=9
King Artus
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/9jaU9bg8Inh/Olympics+Opening+Day/9qFbXmYaOB8/King+Artus
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/jung-michael-1117923/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/597343?levels=9
BIOSTHETIQUE-SAM FBW
http://www.equicomplet.fr/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/jung2_thumb.jpg
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/klimke-ingrid-1117934/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/411166?levels=9
http://pasagoszirgynas.forumotion.com/t188-frh-butts-abraxxas-trikove
FRH BUTTS ABRAXXAS
British team.
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/fox-pitt-william-1116250/horse/
Dam unknown.
Sire Lancer III:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/3078?levels=9
From his type one could assume that his dam is a thoroughbred:
http://eventingnation.com/home/british-eventing-team-announced-for-london-games.html
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/9jaU9bg8Inh/Olympics+Opening+Day/IFMcBi90VEC/William+Fox+Pitt
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/wilson-nicola-1116283/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1505737?levels=9
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=17757
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/phillips-zara-1116267/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1505741?levels=9
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/king-mary-1116259/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1505735?levels=9
Sixth picture from the top:
http://eventingnation.com/home/friday-lunchtime-barbury-update.html
http://www.london2012.com/athlete/cook-kristina-1116239/horse/
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1505746?levels=9
Thoroughbred.
Nice pictures of eventing horses:
http://eventingnation.com/samanthalclark/bramham-cic-trot-up.html
This year’s four star eventing in Luhmühlen:
http://www.luhmuehlen.de/files/Ergebnislisten_2012/luhm0_010_erspr_abst.pdf
Leopin
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/585263?levels=9
http://www.trendsvid.net/video/xDnl1LxaTkc.html
Flying Finish
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1501482?levels=9
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/9ML1vBLPaT/Australia+Olympic+Equestrian+Eventing+Media/xFyktdlLY1/Flying+Finish
FRH Butt’s Avedon
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/384350?levels=9
http://www.dothorse.it/blog/news/11357962/cci-boekelo-vince-dibowski-ugolotti-undicesimo
The fourth horse is a Thoroughbred
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10495613&blood=10"a=
La Biostethique Sam, most line breeding is to St. Simon, Blandford, Galopin and Nearco.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10716350&blood=10"a=
Opgun Louvo, most line breeding is to Sif, Furioso, St Simon and Galopin.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10731480&blood=10"a=
Barny, most line breeding is to St. Simon, Galopin, Phalaris and Hampton.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10612377&blood=10"a=
King Artus, St. Simon, Galopin, Nearco and Hyperion.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10495517&blood=10"a=
Butt’s Abraxxas, Wiesenblüte, St. Simon, Ticino and Galopin.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10715481&blood=10"a=
Leopin, most line breeding to St. Simon, Nearco, Duellant and Galopin.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10648417&blood=10"a=
Flying Finish, Ladykiller, Cottage Son, Cor de la Bryere, St. Simon.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10722076"a=
Butt’s Avedon, Wiesenblüte, Ticino, Alchimist and Nearco
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10495664&blood=10"a=
Opposition Buzz, Ararad, Nasrullah, St. Simon, Pythagoras.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10495664&blood=10"a=
High Kingdom, Hyperion, St. Simon, Gainsborough and Galopin.
Conclusion: the TB cross horses and the thoroughbreds can both be very good. And all of the horses have heaviest linebreeding to TB’s, especially St. Simon.
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