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Disappointed with eventing performance

Sport Horse Breeding
#41

[QUOTE=Sakura Hill Farm;6477983]
The chances that a jumper-bred foal will succeed in UL eventing are far greater than an event-bred foal succeeding at GP jumping. And this is even more true when cross country is added to the horse’s repertoire–the jump tends to flatten putting the higher levels out of the horse’s reach. I am aware that, for every example of this, one can always cite the contrary, but this is a generally respected tenent.[/QUOTE]

I think this is a fairly complex question. A UL event horse has to have the right type of jump and the right gallop/canter for eventing. The jump must be forward, adjustable, efficient, and light on landings. The gallop must be efficient and able to comfortably maintain Advanced speeds while jumping. Again, the horse can’t be hard on himself in the gallop.

Given those parameters, there are many GP jumpers that wouldn’t make it as eventers and many GP jumper stallions that wouldn’t be smart choices if you wanted to produce an eventer. They could clear the jump height no problem, but the terrain, combinations and length of an XC course would not be suitable for them. Temperament is another serious consideration but I won’t go into that here.

Put another way, the GP jumper and the UL eventer are different animals. Sometimes their Venn diagrams overlap but that is not the norm. Good breeders understand this too. Some years ago, I contacted the guy who runs VDL and asked him if he had any stallions who he’d recommend to produce an eventer out of a TB mare. ‘Corland’ was his answer ‘because of the canter’. At the time, Corland was very young and not well-known, but he was 100% right. He didn’t really think any of their others were suitable for this purpose and told me so.

The Funnells’ Billy Stud in the UK breeds horses for both eventing and jumpers. They start all of them the same way, then point them to the more suitable discipline. The breeding between the two groups is often quite similar. I be curious to hear their philosophy on breeding and purpose.

#42

The TB’s infused into the WBs into the German team horses were TB stallions who had undergone the rigorous stallion performance testing in Germany. Butts Abraxxas ridden by Ingrid Klimke is sired by Heraldik xx, who is a fully HanV approved Thoroughbred stallion.

The difference I think is not the fact there was X% of TB blood. All eventers need a good deal of TB blood for running capacity.

The difference was WHO the stallions in the eventing breeding that were being used. These were not random TBs pulled off the track. Very specific to Klimke’s horse - hers was very specifically bred for X-country - out of a mare who had very good jumping and dressage abilities and sired by a TB stallion who had been rigorously assessed for his jumping ability by the Verband.

This very point is where I think the differences lie.

Butts Abraxxas is a Hanoverian branded horse. His mother (Kira-Annabell) was a Hanoverian mare was sired by an Han-approved TB stallion (Kronenkranich xx). Her own mother, Anatevka, was a Hanoverian branded mare who in turn was sired by an approved TB stallion (Wiesenbaum xx).

TBs are not allowed in HanV breeding except that they’ve been approved. It speaks to the very specific selection that resulted in her getting the horse she had.

If North America wants to be able to compete with Germany in Eventing, then you will have emulate the breeding and selection practices, because it is obvious their breeding/selection practices/methods WORK.

Edited to add: He has so much TB in him, that he is practically TB. If you trace his motherline all the way back to 1888 the trend is: Han mare bred to TB stallion, resulting filly is registered hanoverian, but bred back to TB stallion, and so on. It still speaks to the very specific breeding and selection process. Only certain types of stallions were used.

#43

Agreed!

#44

[QUOTE=dianehalpin;6476993]
!Regarding breeding for eventing - don’t expect the big prices for youngsters! Eventers are a hardy and savvy bunch and can make a silk purse that has talent and stamina out of a sow’s ear given the time and commitment they put into it! Think OTTBs, etc.[/QUOTE]

That won’t do anymore. The swedes have purpose bred their SWB for generations and did very very well. The Germans also competed with very well bred horses - purpose bred again - that could hold their own at regular dressage competitions AND be quick and catty over a twisty and hilly cross country course.

There just aren’t enough OTTBs that can compete at that level of dressage - or stay sound enough to get to the Olympics after their rough start in life.

#45

My observation of the last few Olympics has been that it takes a certain type of all-round athlete to succeed at the Olympics, more specific than that required for the average 4*. There are 2 primary differences between the Olympics and most other 4s: the first is the two rounds of show jumping (not seen at any other 4) at the Olympics, requiring, as Bayhawk has alluded to, an excellent show jumper.

However, having the best jumper and dressage horse with some blood is not enough. The limited space for cross country courses to be built on at the last few Olympics, built either in parks or on golf courses, has resulted in incredibly twisty courses, best suited to a small, catty TB type horse. The big WBs, in general, have not been well suited and have racked up piles of time penalties that have often put them out of contention. So having the best jumper is not a guarantee of a good placing, if that horse does not have sufficient blood to zip around the cross country course. The horses with more warmblood in them can succeed at the 4*s like Rolex and Badminton that have more open galloping space, but the horses that are most successful at the Olympics obviously need to be not only excellent jumpers and good dressage horses, but TB types that can succeed on this particular type of cross country course; the true all-round athletes, like the Butts horses.

Perhaps, if courses like this are going to continue to be built for the Olympics, the type of horse required to win Olympic gold will not necessarily always be the same type of horse that could win at 4* level in general.

#46

Uh huh … still comes down to a very high percentage of Thoroughbred blood. Selection of the appropriate type of Thoroughbred is just as important as selecting any other sporthorse for the job. A pure Thoroughbred can manage and do well in the entire venue if proper selection, match-up with rider and training takes place – as in any other discipline. It’s not a matter of power for this sport as in GP jumping – they need the big gallop that can be maintained for miles, cover ground with ease and still have the ‘bottom’ to do the stadium the next day.

We obviously need the right trainer for the team, with the exit of Phillips – who? And, our team members need to spend more time bringing their mounts along so that they are a team.

Yeah, Reece, luv you, too – but it don’t change nuthin’! The Thoroughbred has always been our ticket to success in this discipline, so dance with whut brung ya, LOL!

PennyG

#47

Stan The Man (sire of Sam) was a lowly ex racehorse. Trust me I heard all about him for a half an hour non stop as my husband used to gallop him when he was a young thing. Should have never mentioned the breeding!

Obviously he was approved. That’s how it’s done. The horse was still bred to race and did. He was good enough to get approved in a strict format. Doesn’t change the fact he was bred to race.

So yes purpose bred are the winning horses. Does not change the fact the blood was up close. You will not get the gallop and stamina you need with it 4&5 generations back. An actual gallop not to be confused with the fast SJ who would chuck it half way through the course because the stamina isn’t there.

I’m most definitely not saying full TB is the way to go but thinking you can take a purpose bred SJ or dressage horse and make him into an eventer will leave you on empty. Not at lower levels but 4 star yes. Times are tight. Might not be the long format but tight times still need the blood.

Terri

#48

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;6477975]
JER, very good points.

Bayhawk, this isn’t a TB debate but you aren’t going to take a warmblood 4 and 5 generations removed from the TB and compete at 4 star level. It’s not a matter of looking blood, you need the blood. No further than a full TB in the grandparents for the 3 medalists. And MJ’s horse was ideal for the job as far as breeding.

Terri[/QUOTE]

Wega is “only” 54.5% blood and got a silver medal.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1505866

She impressed me as being one of the best jumpers cross country and did not look to be labouring despite her size /build. Maybe the WBs just need a different conditioning programs and the Europeans are starting to figure it out??

#49

[QUOTE=Mouse&Bay;6478111]
Wega is “only” 54.5% blood and got a silver medal.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1505866

She impressed me as being one of the best jumpers cross country and did not look to be labouring despite her size /build. Maybe the WBs just need a different conditioning programs and the Europeans are starting to figure it out??[/QUOTE]

Kind of a special case there. She is a homebred and her dam (La Fair) also competed in the same Olympics. Wega was specifically bred to event.

#50

[QUOTE=TKR;6478073]
Uh huh … still comes down to a very high percentage of Thoroughbred blood. Selection of the appropriate type of Thoroughbred is just as important as selecting any other sporthorse for the job. A pure Thoroughbred can manage and do well in the entire venue if proper selection, match-up with rider and training takes place – as in any other discipline. It’s not a matter of power for this sport as in GP jumping – they need the big gallop that can be maintained for miles, cover ground with ease and still have the ‘bottom’ to do the stadium the next day.

We obviously need the right trainer for the team, with the exit of Phillips – who? And, our team members need to spend more time bringing their mounts along so that they are a team.

Yeah, Reece, luv you, too – but it don’t change nuthin’! The Thoroughbred has always been our ticket to success in this discipline, so dance with whut brung ya, LOL!

PennyG[/QUOTE]

I agree with you Penny. There has to be a large percentage of TB blood otherwise no stamina. I also agree there needs to be a good percentage of wb for jumping and dressage. This is where our team failed.

#51

McKinlaigh

He is by a 1/2 TB 1/2 Irish Draught stallion and out of a 1/2 TB 1/2 Irish Draught mare. He is a big wonking horse with a very easy Irish personality. He easily did what you are saying horse like him can’t do, win at the Olympics, be competitive in dressage and excel at a inner city Olympic event course IN HEAT and clean SJ. Is he an exception to the rule…not at all.
A horse well selected, well trained, ridden by someone who uses all the resources available. What did they do that made them a success. I don;t think a huge amount of Equestrian Team resources were spent on this team and they got where they needed to be and it was no shocker they were a success. They did the work, earned their place, and were successful. PatO

#52

I believe Mckinlaigh is somewhat of an exception. If you watch his round from Hong Kong, you will see that he lopes around the course in an easy rhythm and Gina almost never takes a pull, which is how he is able to make such good time despite his size. I think this is a testament both to his easy temperament and genuine nature, and Gina’s training and development of confidence and trust in her horse (I am in agreement with you on this, columbus). As mentioned earlier, many of the horses were relatively new to the riders; perhaps a more established partnership is what is required to train the horses not as suited to this kind of track to execute a more efficient cross country round.

I do think, however, that horses like Mckinlaigh are not as well suited to cross country courses like these as those with a high percentage of TB blood, and whether all such horses could be produced to be efficient cross country horses on twisty tracks is debatable. I have an imported Holsteiner currently competing 2*; would be going Advanced this year if not for an early season injury. He has more than enough scope for the highest level of eventing show jumping, very good dressage ability and is a bold, clever cross country horse. Unfortunately, he is only 50% TB and is phenotypically very much a warmblood. He will never be a fast horse cross country at the upper levels, and no amount of training would make him suitable for a course like the one in Greenwich Park. He also suffers on the third day from not having the TB stamina: in one day events or three days with open, galloping cross country courses, he can always be relied upon to easily jump a clear stadium round. Despite his jumping ability, though, extreme humidity and very hilly/twisty tracks affect him significantly; in either of the latter situations, he can have as many as four rails down in stadium, because he is NOT a TB. Stamina does not just relate to getting around cross country, but also how the horse comes out and show jumps on the final day. I love my warmbloods, but at the top of eventing, and particularly at the Olympics, I see the horses that are phenotypically most like TBs still coming out on top in the years to come.

#53

Is it possible that one of the reasons the Irish horses event so well is that they have been bred for foxhunting for eons? From what I understand, Irish hunting is screaming fast over terrifying fixed obstacles. If the breeding population has been selected for traits to match Irish foxhunting, wouldn’t you likely find stamina and scope in the RID population?

#54

I think that seems very plausible, viney, and would account for the cross country performance of horses like Mckinlaigh. The warmblood breeds, on the other hand, have not been bred for this type of riding/jumping.

#55

Kind of a special case there. She is a homebred and her dam (La Fair) also competed in the same Olympics. Wega was specifically bred to event.

Not to mention that La Fairs’ dam Princess Fair had two other Olympic performing offspring who competed at the Olympics in 04 Robin Des Bois and Stand By Me. That is the sort of fantastic female line we should all be attempting to replicate. Not only good in the breeding barn but also able to compete at the top levels.

#56

[QUOTE=columbus;6478250]
Is he an exception to the rule…not at all. [/QUOTE]

Yes, he is. There are few half-breds competing at the top levels of the sport. Mackinlaigh and Lenamore (another approx half-bred) are very much exceptions.

There are always going to be exceptions. You’ll see the odd mostly-Arab or Saddlebred x or Appendix QH or foundation WB at the Advanced/*** level in eventing, but it’s like a TB in the GP ring. You can find them but there aren’t that many of them.

What we’re talking about here is breeding for eventing performance and about riders/owners buying horses for UL eventing. If you belong to either of those categories and are serious about what you do, there’s no point in dabbling in half-RIDs. They’re most likely not going to make it to top level and they’re not what serious event riders should be looking for.

#57

Hunting in Ireland. Not sustained galloping for 9 or 10 mins. Lots of down time too. You won’t be screaming fast across boggy ground. I galloped for a guy here that also did hunt liveries. These were big massive mostly draught horses. They were also fit and hunting once a week when I started. Big difference in galloping a TB around the track and a fit hunter. I’ll admit when I first got on one of these short thick necked giants in a little loose ring I thought I was gonna get run off with the way they started out. Nope, as much as they pull is as fast as they go. Drop my hands and same speed. And it wasn’t near the cruising speed of the racehorses on routine gallop.

I really don’t know how to explain cursing speed and sustained gallop. It’s not fast nor scary. It’s just smooth and easy. 3 plus miles and not a deep breath. Easy fitness. Other breeds take longer to get fit and more work to stay there. That’s what a mostly blood horse has to offer.

Lenamore has a full TB mother. If it was the other way round I don’t think he’d have been as good. I think the stamina comes from the mare more than the stallion. No I’m not a breeder of UL event horses. But I know a thing or 2 about fitness and conditioning and how better a blood horse holds it compared to other breeds.

Terri

#58

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6477746]
I have to disagree to a point with Bayhawk. If XC is still the central phase of eventing, the horses must have stamina to get through safely.

Almost all of the top XC horses, particularly from Germany and GB, were very high percentage TB. Almost all of them had at least one full TB parent; most had at least two in the next generation, if they weren’t in the first. This was a SHORT 4* course, and the non-TBs labored at the end. Mark Todd almost didn’t manage to finish with Campino; in fact, one big time eventing coach was even thinking that the Ground Jury might have eliminated him for exhaustion BEFORE the last fence that he almost didn’t make.

I’m not saying that the full TBs all went well, but Jessie Phoenix was the only rider for Canada who finished XC and she was on a full TB. The riders who weren’t on ISHs or mostly TB close up, DID NOT do well XC.

So the future is either to use horses that are suited to XC or cheapen the XC phase even more that it has already been cheapened by shortening the length, slowing the speed and reducing the number of jumping efforts, so the non XC suited horses can shine because they are better at the other phases.

I should point that that the FEI has already shortened the maximum length of the 4* by about a quarter of a mile. The Olympic course was the shortest possible 4* run at 5700 meters. Maximum is just over 6800 meters where it used to be over 7200.

I’d also like to point out that just because a horse seems to have a high blood percentage when the entire pedigree is concerned does not mean that the horse has inherited TB stamina and speed. Over the generations, those aspects of TBdom which are not needed in other disciplines can be and probably are probably bred out. To do well XC you need the TB close up–I’d say in the first two generations.

Should also point out that WFP rode a German horse and finished last on Team GB.

Germans
King Artus–82.81% TB. Sire is full TB.
Butts Abraxxas–99.61% TB
Opgun Louvo–83.59% Blood. Sire is SF by a full TB out of Opaline des Pins (superlative mare line) and the dam is also SF with a huge percent of blood. Lots of Arabian in this horse which is good for endurance, don’t you think.
Sam-75+% TB. Sire is full TB as is damsire.
Barny 71.09% TB. Sire is full TB and all the rest of the Blood is hidden in back generations. Was the German Drop Score for the Team.

Great Britain
Imperial Cavalier–sire is Cavalier, and out of an Imperius xx mare. Imperius xx was the sire of Master Imp xx.
Miner’s Frolic–100% TB
High Kingdom-at least 75% TB. Sire is Master Imp xx; damsire is Chair Lift xx.
Opposition Buzz–Trak (which I kind of classify with SFs because of the way they constantly are adding TBs to an already TB heavy base) on top of a mare who is at least 3/4ths TB.
Lionheart–no TB in the first two generations. British drop score.[/QUOTE]

^^ this

#59

[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;6477814]
Kathy, I don’t breed eventing horses and never will. So this applies to my discipline, though I think it could apply to any of them.

Your comment above hit home. It all comes down to connections. Right now I have a young mare just being started who is IMHO the best thing I have ever bred. I believe she can go all the way in the right hands, and with the right decisions, plus the necessary luck. My goal will be to have her seen by people who can help me make the right connections. I am not asking for handouts. I know that that goal (being noticed by the right people) is not going to be easy, because most prominent judges, trainers and riders blow off what most breeders have to say about the horses they produce. The polite ones listen without an eyeroll, at least.

I have also learned over many years in the dressage world that all that glitters is not gold and that one can easily send a good horse off, pay full training to someone that I believed was very nearly a dressage god or goddess, and get back a large bill, a short video and a half wrecked horse.

There are few easy answers.[/QUOTE]

^^ and this

I have been reading the threads on eventing, and this thread.

I can’t speak for the Americans, but I think I can speak for the situation here which is somewhat similar.
We have the horses.
In terms of young, raw material horses. Yes we do.
What we lack?
The money,the committment, the training facilities, the money, the level of competitions to bring those horses and riders along to the level of the Brits and the Europeans.

I have a friend who is an UL rider in the UK. She has 4 4* horses, and is the equivalent of a ‘carded’ athlete. And she is breeding event horses too.
She says she is about 50th on the list and will never,ever make a UK event team.
If she emigrated to Canada, she would indeed make the team.
Every weekend in the UK (pretty much) there is a HT within an hour’s drive of home.
In Canada? a huge country with a sparse population with small clots of horse community in BC and Ontario…and the rest spread out.
OUR riders need to go to the US for upper level experience…
but they all need to go to Europe.

We just don’t have that depth of either horses or riders.
Most of our riders are fairly young and inexperienced.
Almost none of them can afford to buy a made 4* horse from the UK.
Almost none of them can afford to take their Cdn bred horses to the UK for a year or two to compete and get that experience.
And those who do take a chance, buy a youngster and develop him herself?
Tremendous costs/tremendous risk, and the overwhelming need to possibly SELL that horse for large dollars in order to fund your sport.

And as for horses not getting into the right hands? Here is an example that is breaking my heart.
I sold a filly as a yearling. She went to an UL rider who believed that she was an International horse. He needs money to live so he sold her to a teen rider who thought she wanted to be an UL rider…
She didn’t have the dedication or the ability, but of course mummy blamed the horse… and the horse has been sold on…
It breaks my heart.

And while I am ranting, one of the problems that I see is that the dressage coaches here are not experienced with TB or mostly TB horses - and try to force them into a program that does not work for them.
If the horse resists, gets hurt? - it is the HORSE’s fault, and that horse gets tossed aside.
I agree with others who have said that XC and the ability to go XC with stamina and jumping ability is the key, and that we should be breeding horses who can do this, and learn to ride and train THEM better.

rant over, for now.

#60

AND … this is probably a revelation for some … but Thoroughbreds ARE athletes that CAN jump and move – they aren’t just good at galloping! ’
PennyG

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