Disappointed with eventing performance

[Renascence]

We have the horsepower, both ottbs and purposebreds. But eventing is a real partnership and training kind of equine sport, where horse training and rider horse relationship is required for excellence. Our senior team members used to develop and train their own horses, and they were more successful at winning then. It seems they are chasing $ now, instead of Olympic dreams. The model to make the team became get $ owners to buy lots of trained up $ horses for $ riders. Allison Springer trained up one USA homebred to 4 star and could win the dressage portion and finish on that score. She wasn’t chosen for the team.

Breeders are just in a tough spot to make $ on babies. No one in any discipline wants to pay big $ for onproven babies. They become worth the big bucks once they have shown what they can do.

I think the exception is dressage where those afficionados are often chasing beauty which can be evident early on.

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6481734]
My disdain was aimed at the eventing population as a whole. You have read the experiences here other than my own. They generally don’t want to pay (most can afford to) market price for good prospects. They would rather try and make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

I don’t need to sell to eventers. I sell my horses just fine without them but I won’t adhere to their culturistic low ball pricing games. If you can’t afford or don’t want to pay market price for well bred prospects then stop shopping for them.

The horses at the top are a different scenario but the ones this year were outclassed , out schooled and just flat out got their asses embarrassed due to this lack of preparation.[/QUOTE]

It’s been a long time since I evented but way back then eventers were different than dressage or hunter riders. We tended to be an independent lot. Many of us were most interested in doing the best we could with what we had. We valued the process as much as the results. I think this is true to some extent today. A dressage judge I know said she would much rather judge eventers, much less drama and whining.

This is not necessarily the attitude that wins medals. :eek:

About London: I don’t think the riders and their horses were prepared for the hilly twisty course that took more out of them than a relatively flat course such as Rolex.

And why not look at a horse whose asking price is more than the rider can afford? If your prices are firm why don’t you just say so up front? Many buyers expect that there is room to negotiate the asking price, especially if there is a commission involved. With hay and feed prices rising this is just going to get worse rather than better.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;6481887]
I will take a stab at this. Most of the top performers were bred in Europe, out of WB motherlines. Our only decent performance was by Karen O’Connor who purchased her horse from Germany for over 2 mill. Better horses make better teams. The Irish sport horses are mostly out of ID mares, or ID marelines. So are most of the top eventers.

To add, our 1st string eventers(imported or not) are backed by riders training on horses that can never go to the Olympics. In Germany, their second string and 3rd string competitors are riding on TOP horses, not 1k OTTB.

AND, all German riders learn Dressage. Our young riders are not developed properly. The Hunter world doesn’t teach our younger riders dressage. They never developer a Topline, put a horse up into the bridle, or ride them proper, yet we garnish them full of ribbons. Then their “Hunter Trainers” lease them a horse as a school master who has never had their toplines developed, ridden into the bridle, or ridden properly and the cycle continues.

We don’t have the training infrastructure to prepare our riders. That is why had to import them.

We could give them a good horse, but they wouldn’t be able to ride them.

Tim[/QUOTE]

See and I watch Denny Emerson post literally everyday photos of his riders / their horses /his horses and I’ve yet to see the paltry “1k TB” that has been spoken of. Even the OTTB’s he posts about are out of lines that have produced horses with significant results. He himself has several prospects out of WB lines
His web page is a bit out of date but it gives you an idea http://www.tamarackhill.com/OurHorses/horses.htm

There is an eventer, with the history and know how about horses /breeding that his WB’s and OTTB are on the same playing field. He speaks frequently about modern breeding and beyond that the type horse it takes to get the job done. As does Michael Pollard both who have evented TB’s to the utmost pinnacle of the sport.

Here in lies the "issue’ with OTTB’s if you will and its been done for ages. Yes it is often a gamble but there are those who are willing to pull many prospects off the track train them up filter through those who are not going to be upper level horses sell them off to recoup costs and most certainly find a handful of horses capable to do the job. Couple that with knowledge of lines and predisposition of traits and that job of selecting affords a higher % of successful prospects vs not. Its really no different then all the time and effort WB or race breeders put into selective breeding etc.

I in no way believe that it was lack of horse talent that kept us off the podium. Hopefully this knew era of management will include some well needed changes for future teams. We got beat in the lap pool if you will.

My own asqued opinion if you will. As a country if we want better athletes we better start digging in our pockets and subsidizing them some so they can focus more on sport and less on trying to make a living.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;6482142]
It’s been a long time since I evented but way back then eventers were different than dressage or hunter riders. We tended to be an independent lot. Many of us were most interested in doing the best we could with what we had. We valued the process as much as the results. I think this is true to some extent today. A dressage judge I know said she would much rather judge eventers, much less drama and whining.

This is not necessarily the attitude that wins medals. :eek:

About London: I don’t think the riders and their horses were prepared for the hilly twisty course that took more out of them than a relatively flat course such as Rolex.

And why not look at a horse whose asking price is more than the rider can afford? If your prices are firm why don’t you just say so up front? Many buyers expect that there is room to negotiate the asking price, especially if there is a commission involved. With hay and feed prices rising this is just going to get worse rather than better.[/QUOTE]

They are notorious for wanting something for nothing. The ones I’ve dealt with want a 3-5 yr old for what a weanling costs. They obviously don’t get it.

Many of these top WB babies are from top motherlines infused with much blood. Some will make great eventing prospects. Eventers don’t get them though because they won’t pay what jumpers , dressage and hunter riders pay.

[NCRider]

Bayhawk,
You seem very angry at eventers. You are breeding for the H/J market. US eventers can’t/won’t pay what that market will bear for your prospects. You know what, neither would Michael Jung or WFP. There just isn’t nearly the kind of money in eventing as there is in showjumping or showhunters. They can get equivalent stock from overseas and import it for cheaper.

If you want to breed for the eventing market, you need to accept what that market will bear as far as price goes.

If you can’t accept that, don’t get mad at eventers for being unwilling or unable to “overpay” for a prospect, just sell your horses into showhunter homes.

I do think we’ll see more and more riders dabbling in doing some of their own breeding. The test will be when they get substantial offers from H/J (or even from better funded eventers) for nice stock they produce. Will the economics allow them to keep those prospects or will they have to sell the pay the rent? If they have to sell, then the problem is not really solved.

The Swedes success this time was largely dependent on the Olgottsen’s mother being willing to tell the people who tried to buy Wega out from under her daughter to take a flying leap.

I also think it’s a problem with the riders more than the horses. We are not good enough dressage riders to take an average/above average moving horse and score well with it. Our top riders need to focus on their own dressage abilities, outside of their eventing competition horses.

[Renascence]

Bayhawk also seems to take offense that most eventers prefer the Kentucky Black Type mare lines over his marelines. If they had access to them in Holstein I bet they would be used there to breed event horses.

[vineyridge]

from my yet incomplete analysis of the eventing dressage, the pairs needed to score dressage at 70% or higher to be at all competitive. Mostly higher. The best dressage percentages that made it through XC with a chance were around 75%. The top six were all 70% or higher. KOC and Aoife Clark and Zara Phillips were the only ones in the top ten with scores in the high 60%s–and Zara’s was more than 69%.

How many US eventing riders do enough “pure” dressage to have the skills to score 75%? That takes time and dedication, and most of our riders are out competing multiple horses at events, not training or showing pure dressage.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Renascence;6482362]
Bayhawk also seems to take offense that most eventers prefer the Kentucky Black Type mare lines over his marelines. If they had access to them in Holstein I bet they would be used there to breed event horses. :)[/QUOTE]

Both of you are wrong. I don’t intend to sell to eventers and clearly don’t breed for them. Not angry at them either. Just have no respect for the amount of effort they put into these Olympics which is very little.

It is only my opinion that if they bought better horses to start with , they would have more chance at success.

My opinion is they need better horses and better rider training. They were clearly outclassed in both.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@vineyridge;6482393

How many US eventing riders do enough “pure” dressage to have the skills to score 75%? That takes time and dedication, and most of our riders are out competing multiple horses at events, not training or showing pure dressage.

Actually…quite a few do. I can off hand with very little effort think of 10 UL event riders who routinely compete in straight dressage up through FEI levels…and get those sort of scores. They all have “dressage” horses in their string. Many are also doing the level 5 to level 6 jumpers.

That said…I’m living in eventing central with Boyd, Phillip and Bruce Davidson…among many others less than 15 minutes from my farm.

[shea_smom]

To say they weren’t prepared is ridiculous.
To say they weren’t prepared for the terrain is also ridiculous.
they knew exactly the terrain to prepare for, because they sent Buck over there to compete in the test event. Plus they have eyes.
this seems to be a rant that they don’t want or aren’t able to buy your horses.
when presented with FACTS by Vineyridge, that was totally ignored.
They are some of our best riders and horses and I think they deserve a little respect. I have competed through Intermediate only and to go Advanced and beyond takes a lot of guts and skills.
I really don’t get the point of this, except to complain that Eventers can’t buy expensive horses.

[Graymaresrule]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6482402]
Both of you are wrong. I don’t intend to sell to eventers and clearly don’t breed for them. Not angry at them either. Just have no respect for the amount of effort they put into these Olympics which is very little.

It is only my opinion that if they bought better horses to start with , they would have more chance at success.

My opinion is they need better horses and better rider training. They were clearly outclassed in both.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever evented, even at the lowly training level?

I used to, mostly by myself with no groom. (I was lucky if I could get my mom to come along to hold the horse when I went to the bathroom) The effort is staggering, both training and competing, which is one reason I quit. I just didn’t have the time to do it safely. Back when I was showing, under the same circumstances, little or no help, three dressage tests in a day were nothing like one or two days at a horse trial as they were called then.

[Graymaresrule]

Maybe eventers want cheaper horses because it is usually cheaper to go to an event than it is to go to a dressage or jumper show.

(JK, in case it’s not clear)

[NCRider]

Having spent a fair amount of time at regular dressage shows, 75% at the FEI levels just isn’t that common, not even for regular dressage riders. I’d love to know who the ULR’s who are regularly scoring that high when they cross over from eventer land. Heck, a 70% at the Olypmics would put you ahead of a third of the field after the GP. 75% puts you in the top 10.

Who are the US eventers who can regularly put in crazy low dressage scores on a variety horses that they appear to be producing themselves?

Mara Dean
Natalie Pollard
Becky Holder
Doug Payne
Allison Springer
Any West coasters?

Who else? I know there are more.

Who are the best showjumpers who are almost always clean at CCI’s? Do any of the same names appear on both lists? If so, how’s their xc ability?

If there are people who are on one list but not the other, but usually go clean xc, then maybe some grant money should be spent in for a monthlong bootcamp in the other discipline instead of sending them to Europe with their horse for a competition.

[Equine_Reproduction]

@Renascence;6482090

We have the horsepower, both ottbs and purposebreds. But eventing is a real partnership and training kind of equine sport, where horse training and rider horse relationship is required for excellence.

OMG ^^^^THIS!!! Haven’t we learned anything about the whole Totillas/Edward Gal/Schockemohle fiasco? It’s not about “just” having the right horse or the “right” rider.

Breeders are just in a tough spot to make $ on babies. No one in any discipline wants to pay big $ for onproven babies. They become worth the big bucks once they have shown what they can do.

I think EVERYONE is in a tough spot in that most of us don’t have bottomless pockets and MUST make a return on our investment. That’s not just breeders, it’s riders, it’s trainers, it’s the people selling feed - it’s EVERYONE! Most breeders don’t have the time, energy, money, ability, etc., to start and train and compete their babies. Most riders don’t want to bother breeding their next ride or waiting for a foal to grow up to a riding age or don’t want the risk of producing a horse that isn’t a match for them - that’s not unreasonable. There is just a HUGE disconnect between all parties concerned. But we all want to be paid for our efforts. That isn’t unreasonable. I’m happy to make minimum wage and to be doing what I’m doing. But I “do” find it sad that breeders that want a reasonable return on their efforts are jumped on. Riders that can’t afford to spend thousands of dollars on a horse and opt for the OTTB are jumped on. Trainers that attempt to make a commission on trying to match a good horse to a good rider are jumped on.

Instead of jabbing at each other and complaining about how each side is money grubbing, or tight with a nickel or not willing to make the effort, look for some sort of resolution. I feel like when I’m reading these threads, I should be scratching my eardrum with an ice pick. I’ve sold soooo many really super talented horses to amateur riders that while they have dreams, I know the reality is the horse will be well loved, but will probably never realize its potential. But, it paid the bills and we all do what is necessary. Nothing wrong with that. I really hate all the finger pointing and blaming that is going on here. Gah! Let’s get beyond that and try to figure out what needs to be done to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6482627]
OMG ^^^^THIS!!! Haven’t we learned anything about the whole Totillas/Edward Gal/Schockemohle fiasco? It’s not about “just” having the right horse or the “right” rider.[/QUOTE]

Yes

Originally Posted by Bayhawk
No…we obviously didn’t “buy” the right pieces. Even if we bought the best piece in the world , you still have to mange it right

Originally Posted by Lynnwood
Just for Historical comparison one word “Totilas”

[Equine_Reproduction]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;6482649]
Yes[/QUOTE]

Apparently not, because it gets said over and over and over again! ;).

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6482654]
Apparently not, because it gets said over and over and over again! ;).[/QUOTE]

Truth :lol:

I think the question that everyone who is unhappy about our chosen disciplines performances/breeding achievements / Breed registries ets needs to consider is …

Ask yourself what are you doing to improve that which you are unhappy about. If the answer is nothing then zip it.

It is simply not enough just to put the right stallion and mare together.

When I think about game changing breeders/trainers its always been those willing to go the extra mile to support the horses they bred and believed in and or support the riding/riders/training. Not produce something whether it be rider or horse and then send it out the door with a prayer, but stand behind it in every way possible and see their success comes to fruition.

[vineyridge]

We need the young horse system that they have in Germany and Holland, perhaps. They have people (Jan Greve is the one that I have researched) who buy a hundred or so yearlings, put them to pasture for a while, then put the training on them with the idea that they will be selling well started horses. Of those 100 per year, he will cull later after the training starts. Now I’m not going to speculate at how the culling takes place, but I’m sure some go to pleasure/low level homes and some are aimed at Big Dressage and the Big Show jumping sticks.

Point is that the breeders have a place to send their young ones and get paid for them so the breeder can continue to breed and isn’t stuck with all the costs of getting young horses started.

In a bizarre way, it’s sort of like pinhooking in racing.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=NCRider;6482554]
Having spent a fair amount of time at regular dressage shows, 75% at the FEI levels just isn’t that common, not even for regular dressage riders. I’d love to know who the ULR’s who are regularly scoring that high when they cross over from eventer land. Heck, a 70% at the Olypmics would put you ahead of a third of the field after the GP. 75% puts you in the top 10.
.[/QUOTE]

I should have been more clear…I know UL riders who have ridden and competed to the FEI levels in dressage…and NOT at the FEI levels but who do score above 70%. Dressage in eventing is not the same as straight dressage. Doesn’t have the collection requirements etc. so the scores really can not be compared nor is such a comparison of any value.

And I soooo agree with this:

@NCRider;6482554

If there are people who are on one list but not the other, but usually go clean xc, then maybe some grant money should be spent in for a monthlong bootcamp in the other discipline instead of sending them to Europe with their horse for a competition.

But do also think that the need to spend time competing in Europe too.

[JWB]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6482691]
We need the young horse system that they have in Germany and Holland, perhaps. They have people (Jan Greve is the one that I have researched) who buy a hundred or so yearlings, put them to pasture for a while, then put the training on them with the idea that they will be selling well started horses. Of those 100 per year, he will cull later after the training starts. Now I’m not going to speculate at how the culling takes place, but I’m sure some go to pleasure/low level homes and some are aimed at Big Dressage and the Big Show jumping sticks.

Point is that the breeders have a place to send their young ones and get paid for them so the breeder can continue to breed and isn’t stuck with all the costs of getting young horses started.

In a bizarre way, it’s sort of like pinhooking in racing.[/QUOTE]

I’ve been thinking about this exact same thing. Of course in Europe you see both breeders and trainers who can make a go of 100 horses a year. Here 1/5 of that number raises some serious eyebrows. It’s much harder to cull horses successfully - there is little/no slaughter for the very lowest end, and even for the low level market, many breeders seem to have a hard time cutting their losses and selling at cull prices.

Wouldn’t it be great if there were people with the skills to produce top level horses, but who were willing to stay home and raise up the babies right instead of being off at shows every weekend?