I think North American’s in general have a hard time with the whole culling issue. Just cruise through some of the threads on this forum and you see people insisting that a breeder be responsible(as in providing a lifetime home) for every horse they ever put on the ground. The idea of culling something that doesn’t meet certain standards (and I won’t get into some of the ways Europeans cull their herds, that’s a topic for another day) is distasteful to most North Americans.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;6482393]
How many US eventing riders do enough “pure” dressage to have the skills to score 75%? That takes time and dedication, and most of our riders are out competing multiple horses at events, not training or showing pure dressage.[/QUOTE]
But how much time are the Event riders spending on Dressage with their event horses? I think (?) that was viney’s question?
Having the talent to take a Dressage-bred horse up the ranks to FEI level and be competitive isn’t the same as applying those concepts to their Event horses.
Given that the top level in eventing dressage is a combination of high 3rd and low 4th level Pure Dressage, the horses would be getting FEI exposure only at events. It’s the regular exposure to dressage judging from non eventing dressage judges that would seem to be so very helpful. Good transitions are good transitions no matter what discipline; accuracy the same; relaxation the same; working from back to front, the same. Gaits can be improved. With eventing year round in the United States (which is not true in Europe) and every single weekend, when do the BNRs find time to do a series of dressage shows and show jumping shows? There is only so much time on the calendar.
Viney makes a significant point in that you still need “volume” in the number of prospects you start with (whether as an individuual or a nation) to finally get to the 10 percent (?) that have all the goods to make it to the top even when you are starting out with the purpose/discipline driven genetics. That is, even when you are breeding with that end goal, only a small percentage are going to have the olympic quality “it.”
Viney,
I think you are missing two very important issues.
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The advanced moves (and lower level moves) are easier for WB’s to do, because of their confirmation. So by default their rideability will be higher.
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Measurements of degree. Just doing a excercise properly doesn’t mean that another horse can’t do it better. Better wins.
Jumping is just dressage over fences. If it is easier to change leads, or piaffe to make the next turn, extend or shorten your stride, then you will be more succesful. All of these are easier for a WB’s as a whole then TB’s.
It takes more to be a TOP performer then just being compliant.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;6483212]
Viney,
I think you are missing two very important issues.
-
The advanced moves (and lower level moves) are easier for WB’s to do, because of their confirmation. So by default their rideability will be higher.
-
Measurements of degree. Just doing a excercise properly doesn’t mean that another horse can’t do it better. Better wins.
Jumping is just dressage over fences. If it is easier to change leads, or piaffe to make the next turn, extend or shorten your stride, then you will be more succesful. All of these are easier for a WB’s as a whole then TB’s.
It takes more to be a TOP performer then just being compliant.
Tim[/QUOTE]
Can you please expound on your statement for knowledge sake and tell me why you believe it is easier for them ?
What separates a WB from a TB if both are correctly conformed for the job at hand ?
Interested in proven statistical facts not opinion.
This board is opinion. I guess fact would be the medal winners. No full TB’s. I love full TB’s as many on this board do. I’m also a person that crosses TB’s with warmbloods as do others here that love TB’s.
@Carol, yup that’s what I was getting at with mares. I’m not as intelligent as you lot and therefore what I say is not transferred to the forum intelligently. And as far as the rest of the stuff I posted it was for comparison sake. Yup, draught’s are goers, but not in the same way.
If anyone here owned Wenga who would you breed her too for an upper level eventer for the next generation? Full warmblood with no TB close up? A warmblood with more blood close up? Trakhener? Or full TB that’s been tested and approved? I probably would choose a full TB but not because I’m a TB fan. Or look for something by Heraldik that also has some blood in the dam side too. Would not choose a warmblood not infused with a good dose of blood.
Flame suit zip
Terri
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/why-we-need-breed-event-horses
After watching the dressage at the 2010 Badminton CCI**** (England), Carl Hester, the current European team dressage gold medalist, said, “The best of these tests would win any pure dressage competition at medium and advanced medium level.”
Last November, Hester made a visit to leading British event rider and breeder Oliver Townend’s farm. “It was for a Horse & Hound photo shoot,” said Townend. "Now I put him on my best horse, but it still surprised me when Carl said that he could be a dressage horse. ‘OK, dressage at our level,’ I said, but Carl said, ‘No, at the highest level!’ "
Then Townend recounted a similar situation when Michael Whitaker, the hugely successful British show jumper, rode one of his event horses in a demonstration. Whitaker finished his ride by saying that, if produced for the job specifically, the horse could be a real jumper.
We should not forget that Mark Todd’s double individual Olympic gold medalist Charisma was doing dressage at the Prix St. Georges level before eventing. Hand In Glove, the influential French Thoroughbred sire and sire of the much in demand event sire Jaguar Mail, was both an international dressage and jumping horse.
I call BS on the idea that the TB can’t be competitive in eventing dressage at the international level as it stands today.
William Fox Pitt’s top rides are full TB more often than not. He wins all of the 4*s in the world over and over.
The top scoring German horse in dressage at these Olympics was Ingrid Klimke, and that horse has nothing but TB blood added to one Hanoverian mare in 1888. It’s over 99% TB. Surely you can’t claim that it has enough WB in it after all these years to make it a dressage horse.
It’s the rider and the commitment to correct training with a good moving horse, not the breed.
And I noticed that most of the teams selected against pure TB this go round, no matter how good and experienced the TB was.
While it seems to be true that purpose bred event horses do better as a group, how many of the WBs in this event were purpose bred for eventing?
Yes yes yes. It is the rider’s commitment to correct training using the dressage pyramid on a good moving horse that wins the event and creates the foundation to excell in all three disciplines. Good moving horses can be found on the track and at farms. Correct dressage training is ongoing and incremental, even GP riders are constantly working on their basics, such as throughness, straightness, forward, honesty, developing the correct muscles of the horse, the rider’s seat and core strength, etc etc.
I have to agree with this. Eventing doesn’t have to do the high collection moves…our horses have to JUMP and GALLOP. A horse bred for dressage…especially today’s “dressage” typically doesn’t cover the ground efficiently enough for xc. True we no longer have the long format…but the horses still must be very fast xc. And there are not many “dressage” bred horses who are fast enough at the 4* level. There are many TBs…even OTTBs…who good enough movers for international eventing.
And in the end, movement is just a part of it…an accurate and obediant ride will still score competitively on an average mover.
I didn’t think I needed to say this on here, but apparently I do. The highest level dressage for eventing doesn’t even come close to what is expected for upper level dressage. The highest level stadium jumping doesn’t come close to what is expected of the show jumpers. Yes, I agree this is all for a reason, but it doesn’t change the fact that rideability comes directly from confirmation. A confirmation that the TB does not traditionally exhibit.
Back to the problem at hand. Good, basic dressage training is necessary for ALL of the Olympic disciplines. It is practiced more heavily in Europe then here. I think we have a deficiency of dressage training of our riders and horses. Anyone who has had to develop young horses quickly realizes how much easier it is for the WB’s then “MOST” TB’s. This is not because of Hotness or Willingness, it is because of confirmation. If it is easy to do, then they will be happy to do. This is why the sport of dressage is DOMINATED by WB’s. Again, this confirmation is not bred into our TB’s as a whole, and therefore doesn’t exist as a whole.
I will remind you, we didn’t do that badly over the longer 2* course that the London Olympic course designers created. We failed miserably in dressage and stadium, both of which are demonstrative of lack of preparation. Karen who was our best placement had the best dressage test…hmmm I wonder what that tells us. Oh, and the horse was prepared in Germany. Are we seeing a common theme?
Our team was selected because of their wins here in the US. Apparently the competition isn’t challenging enough here. We need to up our game, and it starts with good and proper equitation and dressage, not running around training our horses not to spook at stuff. Our horses are starting to get better, but they are only youngsters. I hope our riders can catch up when the good rides are here.
Tim
[QUOTE=vineyridge;6483441]
I call BS on the idea that the TB can’t be competitive in eventing dressage at the international level as it stands today.
William Fox Pitt’s top rides are full TB more often than not. He wins all of the 4*s in the world over and over.
The top scoring German horse in dressage at these Olympics was Ingrid Klimke, and that horse has nothing but TB blood added to one Hanoverian mare in 1888. It’s over 99% TB. Surely you can’t claim that it has enough WB in it after all these years to make it a dressage horse.
It’s the rider and the commitment to correct training with a good moving horse, not the breed.
And I noticed that most of the teams selected against pure TB this go round, no matter how good and experienced the TB was.
While it seems to be true that purpose bred event horses do better as a group, how many of the WBs in this event were purpose bred for eventing?[/QUOTE]
“And I noticed that most of the teams selected against pure TB this go round, no matter how good and experienced the TB was.”
I’ve been saying for years that the TB has no real place anymore EXCEPT in the generational breeding of these wonderful hybrid warmbloods we have today. No one uses them and no one selects them for top sport performance.
It cant hold it’s own in any discipline anymore. Hunters , eventing , jumping nor dressage.
Sorry these are the facts but it clearly is what it is.
Flame suit zipped…
[quote=Bayhawk;6483840It cant hold it’s own in any discipline anymore. Hunters , eventing , jumping nor dressage.
Sorry these are the facts but it clearly is what it is.
Flame suit zipped…
[/quote]
Those are NOT the facts. Sorry but WFP’s WEG horse and Rolex winner…off the track TB. Boyd Martin’s horse Neville…top placing American at WEG eventing…full TB off the track. Becky Holder’s horses…often kicking butt (Comet was in second after xc at WEG but unfortunately didn’t SJ)…full TBs. We have slews of top horses coming up the ranks in eventing right now all FULL TBs. There are MANY full TBs who hold their own in eventing.
I know many top event riders…they PREFER a full TB. And with a cross bred…the question is always whether there is enough TB blood because given a choice, they would rather be sitting on a full TB.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6483863]
Those are NOT the facts. Sorry but WFP’s WEG horse and Rolex winner…off the track TB. Boyd Martin’s horse Neville…top placing American at WEG eventing…full TB off the track. Becky Holder’s horses…often kicking butt…full TBs. We have slews of top horses coming up the ranks in eventing right now all FULL TBs. There are MANY full TBs who hold their own in eventing.
I know many top event riders…they PREFER a full TB. And with a cross bred…the question is always whether there is enough TB blood because given a choice, they would rather be sitting on a full TB.[/QUOTE]
They hold their own on a NATIONAL level in eventing. Internationally , they are not and haven’t been competitive.
Since when was WEG National…that is the biggest International competition for Eventing…
[QUOTE=Equilibrium;6483354]
If anyone here owned Wenga who would you breed her too for an upper level eventer for the next generation? Full warmblood with no TB close up? A warmblood with more blood close up? Trakhener? Or full TB that’s been tested and approved? I probably would choose a full TB but not because I’m a TB fan. Or look for something by Heraldik that also has some blood in the dam side too. Would not choose a warmblood not infused with a good dose of blood.
Flame suit zip
Terri[/QUOTE]
No flame suit necessary Terri.
If I owned Wenga? - no question,I would breed her to a TB. Of course I would breed her to A Fine Romance. But there are others I would also breed to if I could.
I know I keep saying this (ad nauseum) - but IMO a horse does not, should not have to be 100% and or registered TB to be considered a Thoroughbred and called a Thoroughbred.
We are not talking about Jockey Club rules here, we are talking about BLOODLINES and degree of TB blood.
How ludicrous is it that a horse who is 94% TB is called a Hanoverian, when he looks/jumps/gallops/thinks like a Thoroughbred. He IS a Thoroughbred.
The registry/the brand means nothing, the blood, and the bloodlines mean everything.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6483917]
Since when was WEG National…that is the biggest International competition for Eventing…[/QUOTE]
You make my point. The highest finishing American rider on TB was 10th at WEG
Show me a place in this country that you can go and see a TB family that has been produced for sporthorses. You have no knowledge to go off of other than some stopwatch timing off the track.
The TB sporthorse is standing next to the grave with one foot on a bannana peel. These are the facts.
You guys are showing your ignorance when you say that the Olympic course was a longer 2*. I have no idea where you got that thought from, but there is a rather major difference in the number of jumps and height and width of jumps between a 2* and a 4*. By FEI Rules, the Olympic eventing is run at the 4* level.
This course was the minimum length for a 4*, and it was very tight and twisty. A lot of teams specifically selected for the course and thought that TBs might be at a disadvantage. As it turns out, that was not the case. Both the Brits and the Germans and the New Zealanders sent horses who were either full or less than 1/2 percent less than full TB and the rest of their teams were horses who had the TB VERY close up–except for Campino.
The Germans didn’t do so well at WEG except for Jung, and Sam is at least 75% TB. The Dutch are not competitive in eventing, nor are the Belgians. The Brits sent full TB for half their team and the rest had at least one TB parent. The New Zealanders sent at least 2 full TBs Those are the teams that won medals.
Mr Medicott may have been produced in Germany, but he was bred in Ireland. 5 of his eight great grandparents were full TB, as is his damsire.
It’s too bad that you guys have drunk a particularly poisonous brand of Koolaid where TBs in sport are concerned. And that you know so little about eventing.
If you change the course, whatever the course is, you will change the horses for that course. Whoever controls the courses controls the future. Why is the current showjumping course that favors WBs any better than the previous type of courses that required a gallop and a bit of stamina along with power and scope? The jumps are not as high or as wide–see the showjumping course at the Mexico Olympics. The technicality was much less. Why is technicality the be all and end all of modern horse sport? In show jumping they have just about taken technicality and flat cups and light poles about as far as they can go. Any predictions on the future?
Change the courses and the type of horse will also change.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;6484030]
You guys are showing your ignorance when you say that the Olympic course was a longer 2*. I have no idea where you got that thought from, but there is a rather major difference in the number of jumps and height and width of jumps between a 2* and a 4*. By FEI Rules, the Olympic eventing is run at the 4* level.
This course was the minimum length for a 4*, and it was very tight and twisty. A lot of teams specifically selected for the course and thought that TBs might be at a disadvantage. As it turns out, that was not the case. Both the Brits and the Germans and the New Zealanders sent horses who were either full or less than 1/2 percent less than full TB and the rest of their teams were horses who had the TB VERY close up.
Mr Medicott may have been produced in Germany, but he was bred in Ireland. 5 of his eight great grandparents were full TB, as is his damsire.
It’s too bad that you guys have drunk a particularly poisonous brand of Koolaid where TBs in sport are concerned. And that you know so little about eventing.
If you change the course, whatever the course is, you will change the horses for that course. Whoever controls the courses controls the future. Why is the current showjumping course that favors WBs any better than the previous type of courses that required a gallop and a bit of stamina along with power and scope? The jumps are not as high or as wide. The technicality was much less. Why is technicality the be all and end all of modern horse sport? In show jumping they have just about taken technicality and flat cups and light poles about as far as they can go. Any predictions on the future?
Change the courses and the type of horse will also change.[/QUOTE]
You don’t what you are speaking to Viney.
I said I heard them say that the jumping was 2* because the cross country was much longer and harder.
The Olympic eventing in London was titled as a 3*. The course a 5* and the jumping between 2 - 3*. This should have ABSOLUTELY been a TB advantage. Guess not…see below
As English Cross Country Course designer Sue Benson states, Greenwich is a unique venue. The spectacular views and awesome history of the place aside, the steep undulations inherent in much of the terrain is what sets this Olympic venue aside from others that have come before it. As the Olympics are set as a CCIO3* the jumping test is supposed to be less demanding than that of the World Championships to accommodate emerging Nations. The difference in the eventing sport relative to the dressage and jumping equestrian disciplines is that the variation in a venue’s terrain and footing (when weather effected) can be significant and needs to be accounted for in the overall context of the demands the course places on horses. There is no doubt that the Greenwich course will be physically demanding on the horses - it has been described as a 5* test by both eventing legend, Lucinda Green and leading equine exercise physiologist, David Marlin. Lucinda then suggested that the fences were between 2* and 3*.
