Of course you are. Which is why you are asking about Cherry Hill books on another thread . . .
:rolleyes:
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You are entitled to your various opinions.
Nowhere did I ever say that ANYONE said that someone with no training skills should get a mustang. I said I hope it works out for the OP.
It is a sad statement that you think expecting a horse to live outside 24/7 is unrealistic. Being stalled is not part and parcel of horsekeeping everywhere.
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I think you misunderstand me, I keep my horses outside. 24/7 turnout and roundbale, because I think it’s important to their health.
It is downright unrealistic, however, to expect people to be able to keep a horse out 24/7 across the country. It’s very rare here, and we have good land for it. Imagine in CA or in FL - where 24/7 is downright unrealistc. It’s also unrealistic if you think boarders actually want their horses out 24/7. Most don’t.
This all detracts from the conversation at hand, which is – should OP, who has no formal training training a horse, get a mustang?
I think the answer is obvious.
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The people I have met who described gentling in stalls, have usually been with horses that were handled as foals. They may have been turned out for a year or two and they may have had minimal manners, but they were halter broke as babies.
However, a horse that is truly an adult that has never been stalled (or simply, one that does not take to it, they are out there) - there really had better be a plan.
Horses really do kick out panels and doors. They will find that one location that was not a cinder block. They will run into and through fences. Especially new and/or young horses. Having to doctor a horse you are unsure of in the first place, well, good luck with that vet call.
Something to think about as well, OP. When you have a horse, you will have a vet bill and that horse has to allow for treatment. Vet’s don’t do blow darts and horses don’t magically recover within a day.
Better to also get this learning curve on a horse that allows for your fumbles in all of it as you learn, for a couple of years, and this will only make you wiser about the horse you choose.
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I have to say, I’m feeling a little attacked. Please don’t jump and tear this down, too, I’m just trying to explain my perspective. Please hear me out.
This isn’t intended to be a ‘pitty me, poor me’, post.
The actual TOPIC of this thread was to help teach me about the conformation of the mustang I listed. I understand everyone will have an opinion on what I should do in terms of my plans to adopt and train a mustang, but that was never the actual question.
I made an account on here so I could learn more about aspects of horsemanship I was unfamiliar with (which as I’m sure you know, is a lot).
I may not have an accurate view of where my horsemanship level is in a lot of your eyes, but what I don’t understand is why instead of teaching me what I don’t know, the majority of the response, it seems to me, has been to tell me how little I know, full stop.
Whether or not I’ve come across as ignorant or being too forward with my plans to adopt and train a mustang several years down the road, I don’t see why the general focus has been to inform me that I know so little, instead of explaining things you think I don’t understand.
If you had a student who rode at your barn, and you were chatting, and she mentioned ‘oh, I’d love to adopt and train a mustang someday. There’s a lot that I want to learn beforehand, but I’m really passionate about this idea’, would your response be to say ‘you’re not qualified, don’t do that’, and walk away? Maybe she was kind of cocky and you were rolling your eyes at how much she overestimated herself, but what’s the point of telling someone ‘you don’t know how to do that, so don’t’, without helping to educate her with what she needs to know to get to the point where you think she could do that?
I know a lot of you have offered advice on books to read, alternative things to consider instead of taking on a mustang, and some of you have even offered detailed analysis of the conformation of the mustang that I asked about in the title of this thread, and I really appreciate it!
I realize I can be abrasive and have a tendency towards pretentiousness, and know I can be naive, but what I honestly finding really disheartening is that there doesn’t seem to be that much interest in educating someone who needs it here, and much more on saying ‘you know nothing’, and leaving it at that.
I’m sorry to those of you I’ve upset with my ignorance and cockiness, and this thread has served as a reminder to me (I have been out of the active horse world for several years now) of exactly how little I know compared with what so many of you know, and at least in a lot of your eyes, how little I know compared with what you think I should know before taking on a mustang. While this is probably an important realization for me, that doesn’t mean it isn’t disheartening.
I know a lot of you guys will disagree with me on this and that is OK!
I would just really appreciate if we could move the conversation back to mustang conformation, or other resources to help educate or inform me of what you think I need to understand.
I was really hoping that making an account on here would be a great way to talk with and learn from other people in the horse world. I know that a lot of you are extremely experienced in the horse world and in your respective disciplines, and I admire that. I know a lot of you will scoff when I say this because I have been overconfident and abrasive (and I apologize), but this feels almost like a ‘you can’t sit with us’ type of mentality here, which really makes me sad.
I know that I know way less than most of you, and now I know that I know less than I thought when I started this thread. OK. I get it. That doesn’t mean that I’m totally clueless, have never done anything with horses, am a bad rider, or someone who shouldn’t be welcome in the horse world or on this forum.
I will plan to move forward with a better sense of humility and open-mindedness, and I’d really appreciate it if we could move back towards information-based discussion.
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OP, my reason for posting, and I’m out - I have met many, many people who have focused on conformation when they were learning. Wonderful thing. Not knocking it.
However I think many people have also met those who got the horse with wonderful conformation on video (or recognized it, sitting in a field) - only to find out the more serious holes, after the fact. Some of those holes in training, temper can be heart and deal breakers.
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Well said OP.
Learning about conformation is a difficult process because depending on what you want to do, you will get different answers. You may have already answered this, but what is your discipline?
there are some great articles for looking at jumper and dressage conformation online and it talks about measuring angles, which is the more ’ sciency’ side of conformation. that may go a long way in getting you to understand conformation better. Also, I would advise you to compare the top horses in whichever sport you do to conformation standards. You may be surprised by how many ‘faults’ a top horse can have and still be super competitive. 
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OP on the subject of mustang conformation, as has been mentioned on all of your threads, most mustangs have the conformation of mustangs. Short necks, heavy throatlatch, proportionately large and generally straight heads, and you can find a lot of medium to large pony sizes. Some will have longer, flatter strides, some will be short and choppy.
BUT
If you want a mustang, you want a mustang, so all of this talk of conformation and disciplines matters very little.
You don’t want a dressage horse, you don’t want an eventer, you don’t want a cutting horse.
Maybe you will do any or all of those with your horse,
But you want a mustang. I understand breed affinity very well.
And you want to develop it yourself, with the help of a trainer.
I suggest at this point, then, that you don’t worry too much of this or that particular conformation, but instead on questions of how people develop mustangs. The choosing a well-conformed one is honestly the last thing to think about because I presume you are a long way from adopting.
There is much to learn about the history of mustangs–for instance, in one post you say oh this one looks kind of Spanish–you are aware that all mustangs are descended from Spanish horses, right? So learning a bit about Spanish horses might also help you understand the mustang temperament a bit more, and actually different “types” and even movement.
Then read as much as you can about training programs for mustangs. From as many respected trainers as you can. Go to clinics.
I don’t know where you are located, but perhaps you can work with a trainer who has regularly worked with mustangs. For instance, I’ve done one. I would be a terrible resource for teaching someone about developing mustangs. Horses, sure, mustangs, no. Mine did end up competing in low level eventing with a young teen, but it wasn’t ideal and I really wouldn’t do it again. I have known a few and worked with one, I found them all smart and capable. And ultimately untrustworthy. A friend got another one last year, three year old filly. I think it will probably end up killing her, and this is a horsewoman with extensive experience.
You definitely need a trainer who is familiar and comfortable with this process. I hope there is one local to you.
Regardless, you should use this time to also educate yourself as much as possible about horses in general. Riding, sure, lessons are always important, but also simple horse keeping and horse management. Working at a barn is a great opportunity to handle a variety of horses, different breeds and temperaments. Working for a breeder can also be enlightening, since you will have to handle all ages of horses and see how much handling and training goes into babies that aren’t feral.
I’ve actually had the occasion to say this a few times here this week: the internet can be a great resource for help or education, but it is just not a substitute for real hands on experience and instruction.
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It might be helpful to post links to pictures of horses with good conformation so OP understands what good conformation is. Maybe a few different examples, like successful dressage horses, show jumpers, etc. Oh wait, I did that, and OP laughed.
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I wish I’d taken photos of the mustangs at the MM, to show OP some common issues and also how much variability there is across the various bands. I’ll try for it this year.
OP, here’s the thing. You’ve come to a forum that is less casual than most when it comes to horses where you will be offered a dose of reality if it seems like your plan is a little off kilter, regardless of the thread topic. In the case of this post, the math simply didn’t add up. You certainly didn’t help things by responding to each and every poster to tell them why they’re wrong. And you did this with posters who are very accomplished horse people and you’re expecting them to smile, say thank you and praise your knowledge. Imagine the reception if you did that in their barn? They’d throw you out on your dupa. This is no different.
Imagine if you posted a thread titled “What are the measurements of your helmet?” In this thread you ask for posters to give you measurements and dimesions of their helmet because you’ve never seen one but have always wanted one so you’re going to make one yourself out of bubble wrap and paper mache. You need to know how long the straps need to be and how deep the dome is. How thick should the sidewalls be? Would you expect posters to just follow along, give you measurements, praise your DIY skills and send you on your merry way? No, because you’ll kill yourself.
When we see a bad idea, we call it out. When it’s dangerous (like the mustang in the hands of a rank beginner) we don’t let it go. If that’s not something that you can understand or appreciate, this might not be the right forum to fit you. You can be taught a lot here, but you have to post less, read more and accept the information you’re getting, regardless of whether it fits your fantasy. Learn the whys behind why it’s a bad idea and instead of immediately rebutting posts that don’t tell you what you want to hear, process it, learn from it.
The thing about conformation is that it’s one of those things that is hard to learn online. Camera angles can be very deceiving. Still frames catch a horse in a moment in time and may not accurately reflect what the horse actually is. You have to go see the horse - in person - watch it move and see how it uses itself. If it has a flaw, look at how it moves to compensate. Learn what good movement is, remember it, and when you see a horse moving in a way other than that ideal, look at it’s body, find where it’s compensating for a flaw in conformation. It takes years to learn it. It can’t be learned in books or online with any real accuracy compared to doing it in real life. Once you have the skills, then you can apply it online but not the other way around.
Bottom line, you need to get hooked up with a trainer whose skills align with your goals and go from there. COTH can complement that, but it can never replace it.
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Nobody is obligated to adopt one of these horses if they don’t like the requirements. I think it’s unrealistic that most dog rescues require a fenced yard, but if I had my heart set on a rescue dog, I’d put up the fence. And if I wanted a mustang, I’d set up an outdoor pen with a shelter, as required.
The conversation at hand, as OP has pointed out, was to critique the conformation of various mustangs. Not to decide whether or not OP should get one five years from now. I don’t think it’s a great idea at this point in time, either, BUT she has years to work on her skills and I am happy to share my own knowledge for whatever it is worth to her. No, a mustang is not the ultimate upper level dressage prospect, but there are tons of people out there competing on oddball breeds that are perfectly happy, because they love the breed itself. I think OP is one of those people.
To the OP - I haven’t found you to be cocky in this thread. Maybe slightly naive, yes, but I don’t mean that as an insult. Most times, you don’t know what you don’t know, and the only way to learn is to ask. There are some things that can’t be taught via reading, one of which is timing - and it’s a skill that will be imperative to working with a wild horse. I don’t think it’s an impossible goal to learn what you need to know to be able to get a mustang - with the help of a good, experienced trainer - in the span of five years, if you have good help and lots of practice time.
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Beowulf, I think we’re thinking of different people who have mustangs for the MM right now. The person I know built two adjacent pens to BLM spec, one for a boarder who is participating and one for herself; I don’t know for sure the size, but my guess is around 30 by 40 with a run-in shed. The mustangs live in them 24/7 (and have not left them at all so far) and have not escaped. It’s enough space for them to get some distance between themselves and the humans who are caring for them, without so much space that they can truly get away. They have domestic horses turned out around them so they see a lot of human-horse interaction.
The woman I (kind of) know has made a lot of progress with her tough girl in just a bit over 30 days, but got kicked early on when she pushed just a bit too much. I think she now has a good feel for what the mare can handle. But she started the process having decades of training experience with all kinds of horses, young stock, etc.
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OP, I don’t know that you’ve offended anyone with the series of postings here.
The thing is, you got advice and it wasn’t what you wanted to hear. I don’t think I saw anyone saying that you in no way, never, ever, ever should get a mustang, that you’ll never be able to do it. People are suggesting that you work your way up to getting a mustang and learn all you can by working with trainers and young horses before making the leap to a mustang.
People have also written about the topic of your original question in general, as you didn’t post any good conformation shots by which to judge the horse (not your fault, just what it is). I’m not going to type a summary of it all - if you want the information, it is there.
The thing is, conformation is just but one part of the whole picture. Yes, it is good to know what you are in for with regard to conformation of any horse, but it is no guarantee of anything, just a sort of “I bet I know how this one will ride - or what its strengths/weaknesses will be” based on a picture. The mind is oh so important, and especially with the case of a mustang, the most important thing of all.
Here’s an example. I went to a clinic where a woman brought two mustangs. One of them was the most beautiful mustang I’d ever seen. His conformation was lovely. He was very balanced. He had a nice neck. His head was beautiful - big, but not roman- or moose-nosed like a lot of them. Just stunning. This horse was the most dangerous horse I’ve ever seen. Not because he was mean, but because his self-preservation was SO strong. He didn’t want to let go. Wouldn’t, couldn’t. The clinician had to lay this horse down - there really wasn’t anything else to do. Have you seen that? Do you know what it is about? How/why it is done? How to evaluate a horse to know that it would be necessary? The danger involved? There were three cowboys working on this horse (one who had been a professional bull rider, so he’s got balls of steel). The amateur owner couldn’t get in there - it would have been too dangerous. It was heartbreaking, really.
He’s likely the kind of horse who would catch any person’s eye and most people would probably want him if they saw him in a holding pen. He’s the worst-case-scenario horse for anyone but the most advanced horseman - even then, I don’t know this horse would/could become a useful horse.
So, sure, conformation is sort of important, but the mind is the most important. And that is the benefit of working with a TIP trainer. The very basics have been tested out. The horse has been determined to be safe (as much as possible given the circumstances) and trainable.
As someone above pointed out, this has been an introduction for you to the workings of COTH. You start a topic. It may or may not go the way you planned. That’s how it goes and you can’t control it. People have long memories here and people will suss out any BS. That’s just the way it goes. There are lots of opinions on here; there’s lots of experience to be shared. There’s invaluable information. If you want it, it is all here for you. If you want to argue, then that’s here for you, too. :winkgrin:
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I appreciate that feedback, that’s a good thing for me to keep in mind.
I think I’ve just recently realized (in part due to this thread) that I thought I had a better understanding of conformation than I do. So while I do feel I need to learn a lot more, you’re right, I should remember that having that be the sole focus once I’m actually looking for a horse can be problematic.
Thank you. I’ve kind of been all over the place. I’ve never ridden past what I understand most people think of as (in the sense of general riding, not discipline specific) intermediate. I’ve done western for a lot of years, and english for a lot of years. Very little dressage, but I’d like to learn a more about that for the sake of better understanding the mechanics of horse movement and how to communicate more specifically with the horse. I’ve done some (low level) hunter and equitation schooling show type jumping in the past, but don’t have so much interest in that any more. I’ve also done a little bit of amateur rodeo, which I loved, worked cows out of necessity (and cause it’s fun), and done a couple western pleasure shows, a couple pack trips… haha. Pretty varied, but nothing very advanced in any one place. I love trail riding and always have, so probably always will, and I want to learn more dressage since it seems like it helps everything, but it’ll be a another year or two before I’ll be back in the horse world and in a place where I can get back to a barn and start working with a trainer, etc.
Thanks for your advice.
Actually, not all mustangs are descended from Spanish horses, although that is a common misconception. Did the original horses that came to the Americas come from the Spanish? Yes, but since then there’s been a whole lot of other breeds that have evolved and made their way westwards. Some of these horses escaped, were let loose, or just managed on an un-fenced range before the widespread advent of barbed wire, and some even after that. All these different breeds and more have mixed into the mustang pool, but some more isolated herds have significantly stronger Spanish resemblance and gene markers than others. The Sulphur HMA in Utah, the Pryors in Wyoming, and the Kigers in Oregon are probably the strongest example of Spanish-type mustangs today.
This is a great resource that helps illustrate the varied history of different HMAs, if you’re interested:
http://www.mustangs4us.com/gallery_of_hmas.htm
I get what you’re saying. And you’re right, this has been a surprising tutorial in the ways that this forum seems to work. I was expecting something more reflective of the academic approach to discussion, but can see that isn’t how things work here. Does it seem counter-productive to me? Yes, but that doesn’t mean that I’m right in that view or that anything will change.
I don’t know if you say my explanation of what I meant about the Oregon HMA management on the other thread, but I hope that clarified what I meant to say better.
See, this type of response concerns me somewhat because it sounds like the pre teen books where the girl captures the wild arabian stallion that’s escaped and been running loose with the mustangs. No.
Do understand, when you are talking about mustangs–including everyone you have posted–you are talking about horses descended from Spanish horses. of course they are mixed with other things, but they are descended from spanish stock. This is the equivalent of saying qhs aren’t descended from thoroughbreds, when they are. That a few other breeds contributed doesn’t change the heavy heavy thoroughbred influence in the breed.
And as to the academic approach, I think you must recognize at this point that you are a student, not a peer, in this field.
A number of us are actually real life university professors, in addition to being experienced horse people.
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Even if you aren’t able to ride now, wherever you are, seek out horse facilities where you can sit on a Saturday afternoon and watch lessons or competitions. The flat class show in the English disciplines is a wonderful little experiment in comparing conformation, movement, and training. Compare the horses mentally, see if you can predict the winner. Watch jump classes to see how horses move at speed. It’s possible to have an eye more advanced than your riding ability. I find I can spot a big refusal or wreck in advance watching nations cup jumping even though I will never ride anywhere near that level, learned just from watching lower level jumpers. I can see hock and stifle problems that I can’t treat. I can see when a dressage horse or any horse isn’t using himself. I don’t think these are super high level skills but they do require you spend time watching IRL. Watch lessons, go to audit clinics wherever you now live, watch competitions with focus, not chit chatting gossip as many do. And while you may have your heart set on a grade stock horse Pony with a big head, make a lot of time to see horses with excellent conformation so that you are better able to judge the strengths and limitations of the horse you eventually pick. All horses have their limitations, training is about figuring out how to maximize the strengths and compensate for the weakness. But if you don’t know what these are then you don’t know where to start.
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