This is how it was in the late 80’s early 90’s for my area’s h/j association shows. Sometimes there were so many maiden entries that they did an age split - Under 11 Maiden Short Stirrup and Over 11 Maiden Short Stirrup. Unimportant for this purpose, but brings back memories. Thanks!
In eventing there is rarely a meaningful difference between the “open” and “horse” divisions - they are both green horse/more experienced rider classes.
As others have said, depending on numbers/schedule, not all organizers end up running rider divisions, even if they are initially advertised.
There are drawbacks to either system. One difference I notice in the proposal is that in this proposal you would be classified for life (not so in eventing) which would get rid of the “Olympian in the rider division” issue described upthread.
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You all really should. It’s a hoot - and you can have a horrific dressage test and still end up having a good show that you go home from pretty dang happy. It is also true that the drive home can be long, sad and depressing; however it usually not from losing to ms professional suzy q but from your own mistake(s).
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Completely agree with this logic, and have the same experience. Once you’ve ridden FEI, training/first is really a snooze fest, and with a quality horse anything under 70% is a bad ride. I absolutely shouldn’t be showing my young warmblood against kids on ponies, and adult reriders, etc.
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If you truly believe this, you should show open. IDK, maybe you do.
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I think it depends on what you are doing. Riding a four year old at training level in his first year of showing is WAAAAAY more challenging to me than it was to ride my last horse at grand prix after I trained her for 8 years.
I am a fan of more divisions, however I wonder how practical it is to put that on show managers. I have been repeatedly told by our show managers here that they don’t make any money. If you ask them to do more work, it might not be worth it for them.
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In AQHA you get points. You start as a Novice Amateur until you point out. And while they don’t have levels (TL, 1st, 2nd, etc), you can show in any class to get those points - trail, WP, HUS…
Points are awarded by the placing you get in the class and the number of horses, meaning a first place when there were only 2 horses in the class gets you fewer points that if there were 10 horses in the class.
In a sense it would separate those people who just show at local farm shows because it would take longer to get those points than someone who shows at the bigger shows where there are more competitors. I would guess that more of the grass roots amateurs (me included) show at the farm shows than the BNT or amateurs with a lot of money who go down to Florida.
Just an idea.
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actually that is a fairly sensible approach. Does require a federation oversight which is responsive and nimble and show management using a unified software
Right - and even when they do split divisions they make them A and B, instead of Amateur and Rider for example.
Even at championships last week I entered Amateur (non championships) and was put in the Rider Championships class! And surprise: there were loads of pros in that class. I got uograde points but since points mean nothing to me, missing out on a red ribbon is a bummer.
But pros are allowed in the Rider divisions. My question is: how do they justify it to themselves?
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Agree with this. Those of you having snooze fests out there, consider yourself lucky! My young horse has a really good temperament but he is definitely not boring at shows! Most young horses need miles to trot down centerline without blinking an eye, and with shows as expensive as they are, it takes me years to put those miles on them.
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Not to derail into an eventing thread, but I’m surprised an event would put you in a CH division if you didn’t enter it.
Less surprised that they didn’t run an amateur division. Around me (area 2) I’ve seen maybe 2-3 amateur divisions anywhere, rider is much more common, and the championships are only divided Junior/Senior.
Pros can enter rider if they qualify, since it’s based on experience and not pro/am status.
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Yep the number of times “naughty” and “tactfully ridden” or something similar made it on the card for my young horse’s first show season this year definitely kept us out of the 70s even though my coach said we were both fully capable of it, and it sure wasn’t boring!
This thread is interesting to me because I am actually putting much of the early show miles on this horse in the dressage ring and not the hunter ring where he will probably wind up. One, because he is growing a lot so training level seemed much kinder to his body than jumping. Two, see “naughty” above. Adding in the complexity of navigating a jump course did not look like fun. And third, although I did do some ticketed schooling and some baby poles classes at some local shows, I am actually barred from entering several classes that would be entirely appropriate (and affordable) for this HORSE because I as the rider don’t fit into the rules for the class due to past experience…even for certain specifications, experience that was decades ago. Perhaps I have that experience but I lack some extra bravery these days!
It is honestly never going to be “fair”. Someone will always have more time, more money, more other resources, better horseflesh, whatever. But it’s so crazy expensive, I kind of don’t even want to try developing my own youngster as a show horse anymore when it can be hard to find ways to get miles that are appropriate and somewhat accessible. At some point, the informal off property schooling and ticketed days isn’t enough compared to when the loudspeakers come on and the vendors are there and there’s someone in the judge’s box and in the bleachers and music playing and so on. For me, dressage was more accessible because it was a little bit cheaper and I could enter a low level class. On the weekend. At the lower levels there’s going to be a mix of green riders and green horses, and placing and ribbons don’t mean that much to me at these levels…there’s the person with a 65% getting mostly 6.5s across the board and then the one getting anything from a 1 to an 8 (this was me 
).
This thread also reminds be of being a junior doing the h/j equitation. It is very hard and expensive to be in the top at the national medal finals. And many riders wind up going who really aren’t going to be competitive. They couldn’t travel to show among the best all summer but got qualified in their relatively easier region with perhaps softer courses and no indoor shows. They could never afford the horse that had the bravery and scope for the finals, maybe some of them as pairs could do it on their very very best day. But yet they work to get qualified, and they go and they try. Same thing if we are talking dressage nationals. It’s a National final. You will be there among the best. Why shouldn’t it be very hard to be competitive to qualify for and place a national final? Particularly in a sport that is judged. Again, it’s really never going to be “fair” to everyone.
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Yes. Here in S. California, it means competing against half our Olympic team and most of our Pan Am team.
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I was pretty surprised too! But we did pretty well so at the end of the day I wasn’t sad. I just wish events would let you enter a division instead of writing in your top three divisions on the entry and letting them choose one… or none! If I’d been in the non championship class I’d have gotten the 3rd place ribbon with my score (dressage judge was same too) so… 
I wouldn’t complain if it never happened, but it would be nice if there were divisions by experience, both for Ammies and Pros. Not all pros are dressage pros or upper level pros, some are trainers for low level riders or horses and might not actually be an experienced dressage rider, but HAVE to compete in Open (or are supposed to, anyways). I always wondered if there was a way to make it fair for a pro from another discipline, like reining for example, that’s getting into dressage but is very inexperienced with it.
The more I think about it, the more complicated it gets though 
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Sorry if this has already been clarified but the points an amateur gets in eventing don’t do anything except contribute to your leaderboard standing. And to come at the top of the leaderboard in my division you’re someone who wins almost every time out, and has the funds to/lives in an area that allows you to compete every other week all year.
To qualify for AECs you need to come 1st or 2nd in any USEA recognized event. “Placing requirement earned through the USEA Amateur Upgrade Policy apply only toward the amateur divisions and the open modified division.” - so my understanding is that while an amateur may get upgrade points perhaps they only get AEC quals from amateur divisions? (IMEX coming 2nd w upgrade points recently, I did NOT get an AEC qual out of it)
And that’s doubly annoying: the Amateur division is rarely offered here, even if you enter it. And since pros can jump on the Rider divisions, they scoop up the ribbons and the amateurs get… useless points. And no AEC qualifications.
Correct. I qualified for the amateur division at AEC one year this way, though I didn’t go.
FWIW I’ve never seen an amateur division run near me. Open/Rider/Horse and sometimes Junior is all I’ve ever seen. IMO, the O/R/H divisions do about as well as anything else to actually divide divisions by experience as anything I’ve seen. Better for sure than Open/Amateur in dressage.
My local dressage organization runs schooling shows with just one “class” per test, but they pin separately for open/amateur/junior- so most of the time you’re getting a ribbon against just 2-3 other people, even if there are 6 or 8 in the “class”.
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Sidetrack but: I’m pretty sure you get a qual. What you quoted means you can’t compete in open/rider/horse AEC divisions with an amateur upgrade placing, not that you need to be in an amateur division to qualify (which barely ever exists over here). I think they just aren’t showing up on our records yet for shows that occurred since around 2023 AECs. I was wondering why my record didn’t show Qs so I looked at some other people who placed 1st/2nd and they didn’t have Qs either, even pros with non-upgrade placings. Early August results look normal. I think it’s a website glitch that has to do with the abbreviations in records changing (if you look at the key below your record you’ll see it’s not A, Q, C anymore). I am not going to worry about it until it’s closer to mattering, but you can always email them — they’re pretty responsive.
Aha! Well that would be encouraging! For my last three results there is no “A” or “Q” in the “AEC-Q” column though maybe as you say it’s just a lag…
(I recently asked USEA what the letters meant and their reply is here in case anyone finds it helpful: “The “C” indicates the result can be applied to the completion requirements of the AEC qualifications. An “A” in the column would indicate a placing obtained through the amateur upgrade. A “Q” would indicate a qualifying placement (1st or 2nd). Completion and placement results cannot be combined: The AEC requires a total of 3 results, the placement plus two completions, all three without cross-country jump penalties.”)
You can qualify based on your placing in any division at that level; what you qualify for at the AECs is based on who you are as a rider. I qualified to compete in horse, rider, open, and amateur because I am eligible for all the divisions even though I only competed in the open division at my smurf level (BN).
The AECs were an absolute blast even though we were not competitive. I really hope I can manage to qualify again (SO not guaranteed). We went through the head of the lake; we stadium jumped in the big ring - and our names were on the big screen. There were adult beverages and parties most nights. Well done and so much fun.
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